That is going to leave a mark

NC State succeeded to erase most of the goodwill the Wolfpack had built in the early part of the season with an embarrassing 70-62 home loss to fellow projected cellar-dwellar, Virginia.

State was up ten points in the middle of the second half when Mike Wood called an ‘interesting’ charge on Dennis Horner that took 2 points off the board for us that would have extended our lead to 12.

UVa followed that possession with a three pointer and the mentally-weak Wolfpack’s collapse was just beginning . I would love to know what the scoring was in the game after the foul called on Horner.

The Wolfpack then missed free throw after free throw after free throw and couldn’t score to offset our bad defense as Virginia pulled away. For the game, the Wolfpack was a miserable 16-25 from the free throw line (61.5%) while Virginia shot a blistering 19-20 from the charity stripe.

The first 30 seconds of the game was literally a mirror into the foundational deficiencies that plague the NC State program: (1) Javi Gonzalez committed an unforced turnover in the first eight seconds of the basketball game. How is that even possible?, (2) Virginia grabbed an offensive rebound on their shot attempt just 27 seconds into the game. You couldn’t have even scripted behavior more telling than that.

I wish I could comment on Coach Lowe’s substitution pattern, but I don’t quite understand it any more than he does.

A good friend of mine emailed me the following after the game —

I don’t get emotional about NC State Basketball anymore. This is literally the first time all year I’ve wasted more than 30 mins (of my time) on a game, and I realize now why I do not dedicate any time watching this.

Why do I send you this? Because I think I probably feel the same way a lot of fans do, and it is sad. There was nobody in RBC for an ACC game on a Saturday.

Looking at our ACC schedule, there is no team we are clearly better than on the list. We’ll have a small margin for error in all our games. It could get really bad this year; I hope I am wrong.

Once again we have “hope”, with Harrow and a few others coming, which is horrible becuase “hope” is not a plan. I HATE the excuse that you have to get players, though I know it is importanct. We both know you are not a good program if you have to rely on a a great recruit to be competitive. Good coaches can overcome a certain level of talent gap by focusing on fundamentals and sound basketball. And I really don’t think our talent gap is too large in ACC competition.

So . . . if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. If the team gets 4 wins or less in the ACC, a real possibility, it would be appalling not to make a change. And once again, I really hope I’m wrong and get a surprise to the upside!!!

I totally understand his thoughts and his feelings. I just don’t understand why any NC State would remotely entertain any coaching move while Lee F*ing Fowler would be the AD responsible for making the hire. What coach in America do you think would want to work for that bozo? I know quite a few personally – including one in Texas – who has told his friends and inner circle there would be no way in hell they ‘would ever work for that idiot’.

As we’ve been trying to tell you for YEARS — there is NO REASON to focus or worry about any of the individual programs before you fix the biggest problem that inherently impacts every program — LEE FOWLER.

SUNDAY UPDATE (11 a.m.)

The fallout from Saturday’s loss has spilled over into Sunday now and I just can’t tell you how happy it makes me that I get the pleasure of talking about the game more.

Luke DeCock addressed State’s sloppy play in his column today in the N&O.

Also, Denny Kuiper, from the ACC Journal, touched on State/Virginia in his 3-pointer.

I don’t really have anymore to say about the game. State should have won by 8-10 points and ended up losing by eight. The one thing that really scares me about it, the more I think about it, is that this debacle came against Virginia. This wasn’t Carolina or Duke or some top tier team, it was Virginia. The next three weeks sure look like they could be loads of fun.

About StateFans

'StateFansNation' is the shared profile used by any/all of the dozen or so authors that contribute to the blog. You may not always agree with us, but you will have little doubt about where we stand on most issues. Please follow us on Twitter and FaceBook

09-10 Basketball

159 Responses to That is going to leave a mark

  1. Wolf74 01/11/2010 at 9:23 AM #

    I had been reserving judgment of Lowe. I now feel he can start being judged. We are now two games behind where I thought we should be to demonstrate that Lowe was even remotely close to the type of coach that could handle the job. Not much to ask in year 4 of a coach building on a program he took over that had 5 straight NCAA appearances.

    We are one game behind where I actually thought we would be and that’s bad.

    That one or two games are very big because they were losses to teams that were no better than us AT HOME! One to a projected cellar dweller with a first year coach. I was hoping for a 6-10 ACC record. Now I see no way we can go 6-10. Maybe 0-16 but more likely 1-15 or 2-14. With that record Lowe will have had the meltdown that I feared. Lowes reputation will be damaged beyond repair unless he wins 25+ the next year with “the” freshman class and I see no way we could improve that much. Also, after going 1-15 in the ACC, I doubt Cothron or Leslie would want to come. More likely 16-18 wins next season, if he comes back, and some wanting him gone and some wanting him to stay because he bleeds red. Well here we are again – a wasted 5 years because of a completely incompetent AD. An AD that demonstrated this years ago by not firing Herb after a horrible 5th season with absolutely no reason to keep him and by calling his fan base “lunatic fringe” – just to name a couple.

    Foul-up should have been fired years ago. He should have been fired after Saturday’s game. If he isn’t fired after the season, I will be through with NCSU because it will then be evident that NCSU athletics are considered nothing more than a necessary evil in Raleigh.

  2. Daily Update 01/11/2010 at 9:30 AM #

    Brown only signed scholarship papers. He can do whatever he wants even if Lowe isn’t fired. Harrow would likely be granted a release and he would probably get out of it on appeal anyways.

  3. packbackr04 01/11/2010 at 10:43 AM #

    anyone who thinks Harrow and Brown dont stay commited if we have a competent AD running a coaching search (that should be going on right now behind closed doors) which results in a good hire in a timely fashion after the season is crazy.

  4. Thinkpack17 01/11/2010 at 10:54 AM #

    ^Well the fact that Harrow said he wasn’t coming if Lowe wasn’t here is a big clue. I think it was BJD95 who said it before…the best AD’s are the ones you have never heard of. I doubt Harrow and Brown seriously go oh Mr. Todd X is the new AD, oh we’ll be ok. Believe it or not recruits are closely tied to the coaches who recruit them. John Wall followed Cal, and wasn’t it Cousins who wanted a clause put into his LOI saying that he would only go to UAB if Mike Davis was there?

  5. coach13 01/11/2010 at 11:07 AM #

    I noticed someone said “except for Tracey Smith”. He might be good off the bench for another ACCC team. For the most part these guys are second and third stringers, or at least that is how they look under Lowe.

    We just really need to stop watching and going. Lowe sucks. Fowler sucks. Learn it, live it, love it.

    Does anybody know if the new chancelor is sports oriented at all? Can he look and say wow we suck? Our AD needs to go? I am slowly trying to unlearn how to be a State fan. HONESTLY, i am trying to start to hate them. I want to hate them. I want to pull for someone else. I HATE NCSTATE. Now, if you join me, this can just be a pathetic win for whoever new you start to pull for. No more embarassment. No more anguish.

  6. coach13 01/11/2010 at 11:21 AM #

    OK Wolfy 79…why after 4 years do we not have a pt guard worth a crap? Why after 4 years do we have no improvements in win/losses?

    I see all the other ACC programs fluctuate…with UNC and Duke staying near the top, but everyone else with good seasons and bad. Ours are just all bad, followed by bad, followed by bad.

    MY GOD, we all follow sports, we’ve seen other coaches rebuild various programs across the board. Why is it no coach can come in and start having an immediate impact. Not saying championship…just improvement. We have 0 improvement. Football…basketball…now baseball sucks. I happens all the time, except at NCSTATE. Anybody who thinks anybody involved in coaching or oversite of sports at NCSU deserves more time is an outright idiot.

    The only sport I am following with any hope of improvement right now is women’s basketball. I mean she has a chance to make us better after the mediocrity/subpar performance we were stuck in with Yow.

  7. Thinkpack17 01/11/2010 at 11:23 AM #

    “I noticed someone said “except for Tracey Smith”. He might be good off the bench for another ACCC team.”

    Tracy Smith MAYBE, MAYBE doesn’t start for UNC. Other than that he is a starter for every other team in the conference.

    1. He’s better than Lance Thomas.
    2. He’s better than anyone of Maryland’s front line.
    3. He’s better than Derrick Favors.
    4. He’s better than Chas McFarland.
    5. He’s better than than the White guy that VA started.

    I know Miami has Collins, Vtech has Allen and Clemson has Booker. I don’t know their front court counterparts but I bet he starts along side all of them. Stop it. Nnnoo. Nnnoo. Don’t say foolish things.

    I don’t know what happened with your post. It showed up three times under “awaiting moderation”. That usually only happens when multiple links are included in the post. Maybe someone can tell us what happened.
    VaWolf82

  8. Thinkpack17 01/11/2010 at 11:45 AM #

    No Problem. I reposted it…I thought I said something wrong. So I took out “Foolish”, then I thought maybe I wasn’t allowed to say “white guy”.

    As far as I know, we don’t have anything sophisticated enough to kick out messages with phrases like those. Oh well, just another mystery that one of the computer guys will have to explain.
    VaWolf82

  9. packfan03 01/11/2010 at 11:49 AM #

    “MY GOD, we all follow sports, we’ve seen other coaches rebuild various programs across the board. Why is it no coach can come in and start having an immediate impact. Not saying championship…just improvement. We have 0 improvement. Football…basketball…now baseball sucks. I happens all the time, except at NCSTATE. Anybody who thinks anybody involved in coaching or oversite of sports at NCSU deserves more time is an outright idiot.”

    It isn’t uncommon for new coaches to struggle when taking on a new program. Most peope (I realize that this is entirely subjective) give coaches about 5 years. It takes time. Would this be different if Coach Lowe wasn’t taking over a team with princeton offense players? If Lowe had recruiting hotbeds already established? Yes. Unequivocally, yes.

    Listen, if you thought Sid was going to come in here and win within the first three years, you haven’t been paying attention. In year four, I expected Lorenzo to be on campus. We need a dynamic scorer on the outside and currently, we don’t have one. Now, I give Sid through next year before passing judgment. You should do the same. If you choose not to, try to be rational. Attempting to convince every NC State fan to hate our team will not make this job more attractive.

  10. coach13 01/11/2010 at 12:06 PM #

    packfan03…you are full of it. Not sure what you mean by a “new program”. And yes 5 years is ok, but improvement does not typically start at year 5. It starts in year 1, barely noticable, and by year 4 you should see something. WTF are you seeing that everyone else that is pissed off does not? So…what about the Princeton offense? It’s a change in style. He didn’t take over a program coming off suspension…or lost all its players in a plane crash. It was just drab. You act like there was no basketball program at all and he was asked to perform a miracle?

    I haven’t been paying attention? You must be a naive young person who does not follow or understand sports. And my comments were anger, and sarcasm about hating State, not meant literally, as many do on this site.

    You keep pulling for the idiot. We will suck forever until big changes are made. I am through posting. I’ll be back when Fowler and all the sucka** coaches are fired.

  11. bradleyb123 01/11/2010 at 12:22 PM #

    I’m not here to excuse Sidney Lowe or even try to promote or support him. I do think we have a lot of true freshmen playing a lot of minutes and we should expect lapses like this. Even mighty Carolina lost to College of Charleston. Hopefully this won’t be the norm, but I concede it might.

    I still support Sidney until next year when our freshmen have a year of experience, and the blue-chippers arrive. In the meantime, I hope the rest of our games don’t all turn out like this one.

  12. packfan03 01/11/2010 at 1:10 PM #

    “Not sure what you mean by a “new program””

    I should have been more clear. My intention was to simply state that often times, coaches struggle when they take a new job.

    “So…what about the Princeton offense? It’s a change in style.”

    The Princeton offense is a polar opposite of the flex offense Lowe runs. It requires different players with different skills.

    “You must be a naive young person who does not follow or understand sports.”

    I’m old enough to objectively analyze NCSU athletics – but perhaps not as old as you. I appreciate the difficulties Lowe has faced with our program, the talent he is bringing in, and that there likely isn’t a better coach out there who can improve our program. It certainly won’t hurt to give Lowe one more year to prove himself with a talented roster.

    “I’ll be back when Fowler and all the sucka** coaches are fired.”

    Here’s where we do agree…Fowler needs to pack his bags.

  13. nycfan 01/11/2010 at 1:45 PM #

    It seems to me there are two sets of divisions arising among State fans right now:

    (1) Lowe can’t cut it v. Lowe can’t force the players to execute
    (2) Lowe should go if the melt-down happens this season v. wait for Harrow & Brown no matter what

    I keep thinking about Matt Doherty (and Lowe is having NOTHING like that melt-down), and bottom-line he wouldn’t have survived the 8-20 debacle had he not had a top 5 class coming in. He proved the following year he was not up to the task even with the talent (and again had other serious issues that we’ll never know but can speculate whether those other issues would have risen to the level of getting him fired had he gone to the Final Four that season — the answer is probably that if you treat people like that, you don’t have team trust to get that far anyway). But the presence of that all-star class made the job attractive enough for Roy to take (I have always thought that his original decision to stay in Kansas was based in large part on weighing his returning talent at KU v. the lack thereof at UNC; the Felton/May/McCants class at UNC, together with the change in AD at KU, changed that dynamic the second time around.)

    I think you guys are being asked to stipulate that for unspecified reasons** this season be deemed to be year 2 of Lowe’s efforts and agree that he deserves the opportunity to prove himself with “his” talent next season. The presence of Harrow and Brown will make the State job more attractive if it comes to that after next year.

    BUT if you were negotiating a contract with your AD, then presumably you would demand and get bright line performance requirements for year 5. Unfortunately for State fans, I very much doubt there will be any sort of bright line test and you will be left debating whether the inevitable(?) improvement next season is sufficient, be it an NIT run or an NCAA bid or whatever. Of course, if Lowe + Harrow + Brown completely right the ship and State is a Sweet 16 team you have no issues.

    How bad this season turns out to be remains to be seen, but I have gone from thinking this team could win 6 conference games to scratching my head looking at the schedule and trying to find 3-4 wins. But that is why they play the games.

  14. fullmoon1 01/11/2010 at 2:10 PM #

    We have good point guards, Degand is fast and Javi is good. I would put them up aginast UNC’s anyday of the week honestly but freethrow shooting is atrocious. I don’t hold Sid accountable for lame freethrow shooting. The players have to be accountable for something. I hope they all spend ours after practice on thier own accord practicing free throws. This loss stung worse than the florida loss. The pack played harder in previous games and it was not a good effort vs Va. I do blame Sid for resting Javi to much and the going with the hot hand thing is not serving him well. I think he needs to stick with what works which is Degand, Javi, Smith, at all times and only rest them if they collapse. Regardless Sid is on thin ice and needs to step it up, suck it up, buckle down and be a general instead of a friend who can give them pointers on how to make it in the NBA. I want more from Sid and I want more from the players. It is sad if they have to be dreected to practice ft’s. So i guesss there is plenty o f blame to go around and we need more effort from staff and players but I don’t think it is a point guard issue.

  15. Broccoman 01/11/2010 at 2:28 PM #

    That’s something worth considering. Without Harrow, we may get another mediocre at best coach, or a project. If there’s talent here, a better coach will come.

  16. Thompson44 01/11/2010 at 2:33 PM #

    fullmoon1..You are kidding. “Degand is fast and Javi is good.” While you are correct Degand is fast neither one of them could start for another team in the ACC. Our fundamental issue is not getting solid play out of our PG’s. You have lost your mind thinking they compare to UNC’s (and for the record I Despise Chapel Hell, I love the Wolfpack). Our team is bad if and when we get a True PG in things will change. I believe that and if Smith stays another year with the class we have coming in that should show you if Lowe is the right man for the job. As far as you idiots wanting to replace TOB, have you lost your mind. Can you name another team that has had the injuries he has had to deal with? Give it a rest boys and relax, accept our fate as long as Fowler is running the show and get out and enjoy the new Palmer Course it looks great.

  17. packbackr04 01/11/2010 at 2:41 PM #

    on the plus side…. Sid had a nice suit on Saturday.

    And regardless of what Harrow was directed to say (by sid and Co) about not playing for anyone but Sid…. not for one second, do i think that if Rick Barnes or Jay Wright or Jamie Dixon was hired to replace Sid, that Ryan Harrow and Lo Brown would not want to play for any of them.

    No, these kids dont care who the AD is, but they do care about not having to wait 6 weeks and watch the school get raped on the local news while coach after coach “turns the job down/aka gets lowballed by Fowler” about who the next coach is going to be. With a competent AD in place, the new coach is all but a lock before your old coach is even let go. So the kids dont have to worry about it. all it takes is one call to Harrow to say, “hey Ryan. how would you like to play for Jay Wright (or whoever), tell him to sit tight, Wolfpack basketball is back and he is the key piece and make moves.

  18. packfan03 01/11/2010 at 3:11 PM #

    ^^That’s a good point. Plus, in Harrow’s case, I don’t think he drove up to Raleigh to sign his LOI at Sammy’s just for Lowe. I think he actually likes our fans and our community. He’s gotten a ton of love from our fans.

    My biggest concern is, who would we get if Sid left? My understanding is that Barnes/Wright turned us down during the coaching search that eventually led to Lowe. I did not infer from your statement that those were the only high grade possibilities, but just wanted to mention it. Obviously Calipari turned us down as well….

  19. bradleyb123 01/11/2010 at 3:19 PM #

    packfan03, we’d get another lousy coach. When was the last time we hired coach that had already proven he could coach at the highest levels of college basketball?

    If I thought we’d bring in another Roy Williams, I’d think twice about my support of Sidney. I really don’t know if he’ll ever get it done at this level. But he is bringing in recruits, and I think he can’t help but do better next year with the recruits we have coming in.

    I just think we’d replace Sid with someone else that would do about the same. So we may as well stick with Sid and see if his recruits can get it done this or next year. I think it’s worth the gamble, mainly because I don’t have any confidence in our AD or the NCSU administration to see that we hire a top guy to replace Sidney.

  20. packfan03 01/11/2010 at 3:58 PM #

    ^^That’s how I feel. I’ll hold off on passing judgment for one more year. My attitude will continue to be supportive, and I’ll enjoy watching these guys play.

  21. Wolf74 01/11/2010 at 4:28 PM #

    Guys; personally I do not feel Lowe is getting it done nor do I think he will get it done. Because of his overall slow start, I believe his reputation is going to take such a hit that, in the long run, he will not be able to recover with future recruits unless he has a HUGE (25+ wins) season next year and makes big noise in the NCAA and I feel that is very doubtful. However, I do believe he will get the chance to coach next years team UNLESS he decides he wants to move on and that is probably best. Reason: Fowler is still here and he won’t put pressure on Lowe and even if he did – I DO NOT WANT FOWLER HIRING THE NEXT COACH. I hear rumblings that Fowler is going to be gone but that won’t happen before summer. Therefore, if that did happen, a new AD wouldn’t come in til early to mid-summer and by the time he had time to review the situation, make a candidate list, and conduct a search it would be too late in the year to get any real interest from quality coaches.

    As for TOB, he had injuries and I give him that but I still think he needs to do some soul searching about who and how his defense is being run.

    Ultimately, I believe both coaches are going to be back next year no matter what happens and at this point that is probably best for NCSU. After that, all bets are off.

  22. Pack05 01/11/2010 at 4:35 PM #

    Forget Sidney Lowe… and consider the freaking truth.

    He is doing all he can and the person responsible for this dumpster fire is LEE FOWLER alone. He botched the coaching search to levels unprecedented. If you think for one second a reputable coach would come here to work for that man you have lost your mind.

    His “negotiating” skills have been lambasted by Barnes’s people and have made the rounds to any coach worth there salt. The unbelievable oversight of the WV coach’s contract buyout, rebuke, and subsequent black eye of countless “no thank yous” after name after name had been released and no self-respecting coach wanted to be seen as “7th” choice.

    Then, we have him pull the ridiculous move of pulling an old hero from the past to keep the fanbase from barbwiring him to the stake and burning his sorry tail alive.

    Sid has a very small chance to be successful here (I hope a miracle happens.. i like him personally), but if you think for one second that we would get a decent mens basketball coach with all the bridges that have been burned by that idiot… god help you.

    Before a new MBB coach or Football coach is hired Lee Fowler must be removed. Otherwise it will be a complete waste and more destruction will follow for our fastly eroding programs.

  23. Thinkpack17 01/11/2010 at 4:42 PM #

    “And regardless of what Harrow was directed to say (by sid and Co) about not playing for anyone but Sid.”

    That’s a pretty hefty assumption. So Sid said to Ryan, “Look if anyone asks you about me getting canned you be sure to tell them if I’m gone…you’re gone.” It would take a pretty crappy person to put a 17 year old in that position. Yeah, Sid would have to be a complete douchebag to do something like that.

    “all it takes is one call to Harrow to say, ‘hey Ryan. how would you like to play for Jay Wright (or whoever)'”

    What makes you think that RH or LB couldn’t play for Jay Wright or Jamie Dixon right now if they wanted to?

  24. bradleyb123 01/11/2010 at 6:33 PM #

    Wolf74, I think I agree with about every word you said. Except I do think Sid can get it done once the new guys have more experience and the blue-chippers arrive.

    I like the players we have, but were they seriously supposed to just dominate as freshmen? They’re getting experience. Next year, they’ll be better than this year. The year after that, even better. Look at how much better Javi is than he was as a freshman. Same for Tracy Smith. Now imagine five more guys making that kind of improvement over the next year or two.

    There’s no reason to jump ship. We’re young and we’re going to have inconsistency. That’s how it works (just ask UNX about C of C). This speed bump is no reason to just throw our hands in the air and be done with it all. Sidney will get his chance this year and next year (as well he should), and we’ll go from there.

  25. bradleyb123 01/11/2010 at 6:40 PM #

    I hear rumblings that Fowler is going to be gone but that won’t happen before summer.

    I’d like to hear more on this. I figured that might happen eventually, but I haven’t heard anything specific. Can you elaborate on this at all? Or would that give away your source?

    Any info would be great!

Leave a Reply