That is going to leave a mark

NC State succeeded to erase most of the goodwill the Wolfpack had built in the early part of the season with an embarrassing 70-62 home loss to fellow projected cellar-dwellar, Virginia.

State was up ten points in the middle of the second half when Mike Wood called an ‘interesting’ charge on Dennis Horner that took 2 points off the board for us that would have extended our lead to 12.

UVa followed that possession with a three pointer and the mentally-weak Wolfpack’s collapse was just beginning . I would love to know what the scoring was in the game after the foul called on Horner.

The Wolfpack then missed free throw after free throw after free throw and couldn’t score to offset our bad defense as Virginia pulled away. For the game, the Wolfpack was a miserable 16-25 from the free throw line (61.5%) while Virginia shot a blistering 19-20 from the charity stripe.

The first 30 seconds of the game was literally a mirror into the foundational deficiencies that plague the NC State program: (1) Javi Gonzalez committed an unforced turnover in the first eight seconds of the basketball game. How is that even possible?, (2) Virginia grabbed an offensive rebound on their shot attempt just 27 seconds into the game. You couldn’t have even scripted behavior more telling than that.

I wish I could comment on Coach Lowe’s substitution pattern, but I don’t quite understand it any more than he does.

A good friend of mine emailed me the following after the game —

I don’t get emotional about NC State Basketball anymore. This is literally the first time all year I’ve wasted more than 30 mins (of my time) on a game, and I realize now why I do not dedicate any time watching this.

Why do I send you this? Because I think I probably feel the same way a lot of fans do, and it is sad. There was nobody in RBC for an ACC game on a Saturday.

Looking at our ACC schedule, there is no team we are clearly better than on the list. We’ll have a small margin for error in all our games. It could get really bad this year; I hope I am wrong.

Once again we have “hope”, with Harrow and a few others coming, which is horrible becuase “hope” is not a plan. I HATE the excuse that you have to get players, though I know it is importanct. We both know you are not a good program if you have to rely on a a great recruit to be competitive. Good coaches can overcome a certain level of talent gap by focusing on fundamentals and sound basketball. And I really don’t think our talent gap is too large in ACC competition.

So . . . if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. If the team gets 4 wins or less in the ACC, a real possibility, it would be appalling not to make a change. And once again, I really hope I’m wrong and get a surprise to the upside!!!

I totally understand his thoughts and his feelings. I just don’t understand why any NC State would remotely entertain any coaching move while Lee F*ing Fowler would be the AD responsible for making the hire. What coach in America do you think would want to work for that bozo? I know quite a few personally – including one in Texas – who has told his friends and inner circle there would be no way in hell they ‘would ever work for that idiot’.

As we’ve been trying to tell you for YEARS — there is NO REASON to focus or worry about any of the individual programs before you fix the biggest problem that inherently impacts every program — LEE FOWLER.

SUNDAY UPDATE (11 a.m.)

The fallout from Saturday’s loss has spilled over into Sunday now and I just can’t tell you how happy it makes me that I get the pleasure of talking about the game more.

Luke DeCock addressed State’s sloppy play in his column today in the N&O.

Also, Denny Kuiper, from the ACC Journal, touched on State/Virginia in his 3-pointer.

I don’t really have anymore to say about the game. State should have won by 8-10 points and ended up losing by eight. The one thing that really scares me about it, the more I think about it, is that this debacle came against Virginia. This wasn’t Carolina or Duke or some top tier team, it was Virginia. The next three weeks sure look like they could be loads of fun.

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09-10 Basketball

159 Responses to That is going to leave a mark

  1. PhilipRiversWannabe 01/10/2010 at 1:00 AM #

    that is one of sid’s major flaws as a coach. he doesnt believe in practicing free throws. our team doesnt practice free throws. thats why we cant make any of them

  2. choppack1 01/10/2010 at 1:22 AM #

    PRWB – not sure I believe that.

    Regarding coaches – after the big names – maybe Gregg Marshall, the coach at Cornell, coach at Providence (Davis Jr?) is where I’d go.

    Or maybe, we could hire a guy w/ a God awful NBA record, no college experience and no college degree…Naw, no one would ever do that would they?

  3. Wufpacker 01/10/2010 at 2:30 AM #

    >”Obviously we aren’t talented enough to legitimately compete with many teams in the ACC, and this loss stung because it’s a game we could have won””Landesberg was the best player on the floor tonight,””the game really came down to Landesberg pretty much doing what he wanted to do at will.””If you think VA will shoot 95% for the season, send me a message and we’ll make a friendly wager.”“It’s TALENT, TALENT, AND TALENT. Especially when it comes to FT’s.”<

    Nope, not true. Talent is important for most facets of a basketball player's skill set, but FT's, along with boxing out for rebounds and to a lesser extent playing solid defense, are three very important fundamentals that are way more mental than physical. Shortcomings in talent in these three areas can most definitely be overcome with (being taught) proper technique and mental toughness.

  4. HPWolf 01/10/2010 at 3:30 AM #

    Sid owns this program now. He recruited this team. He took over a program that had been to the NCAA tournament 5 years in a row and took it to the bottom of the ACC. Anyone who thinks Sid is doing a good job is freaking retarted and living in dreamland. WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM AFTER FOUR YEARS OF SIDNEY LOWE. He simply does not have what it takes to coach an ACC team or recruit an ACC level team. Yea, Yea, Yea, wait till next year!

  5. Wufpacker 01/10/2010 at 4:01 AM #

    >”It [a pat on the back and wiping sweat from their brow] has to do with letting your players grow”<

    Sorry, but letting the players grow by making mistakes and learning from them has no more to do with the necessity and responsibility of the coach to make sure the players are fundamentally sound than does giving them a pat on the back and wiping the sweat from their brow. By that logic, a coach should not even bother to teach his players good basketball fundamentals until they've had the chance to make a certain number of mistakes and thus grown as a player. How many mistakes must a player make before he has grown enough to qualify for instruction on the fundamentals?

    There is no excuse for a college ballplayer to not have a good grip on the fundamentals, especially if they don't exactly have the most raw talent in the world. If a player comes into the program without the fundamentals then it is the responsibility of the coach and his staff to instill them into that player. Or, if the coach doesn't want to be bothered with teaching the fundamentals to college level players (which I can understand, actually) then he can just not recruit players that aren't already fundamentally sound.

    Giving them the time and latitude to learn from their mistakes and grow as ballplayers is a completely different issue, and furthermore, it is NOT necessary for a ballplayer to make mistakes in order to learn the fundamentals of basketball. Probably true for learning some of the more subtle finer points of the game, but not for learning the basic fundamentals.

    Regarding FT's, as well as rebounding and, to a lesser extent, playing good defense, many of you want to use the lack of talent argument as to why we should not expect good solid execution of these facets of the team's game. Unfortunately, all three of these fundamental areas are way more mental than physical. I'm not sure we have as huge a talent gap as some folks seem to think, but if we do then that is EXACTLY why these fundamentals are so important. Even HWSBN realized that.

    And while we might be "out-talented" right now by a lot of teams, I don't believe UVa is one of them, and we have no business allowing a 10 point 2nd half lead to evaporate and lose to them by eight, especially at home. Thats just unacceptable. There were a lot of different things that happened down the stretch in that game that, if it had gone differently, could have resulted in the Pack winning the game. At least some of those things are based in having a good fundamentally sound ballclub.

    But, regardless of why it happened or who is at fault, the sad fact remains that if we can't hold a 10 point lead at home against one of the few conference teams that is arguably worse than us (at least I thought so BEFORE today's game), then the rest of this season is going to be pretty painful, I'm afraid.

    Oh, and Conrad? State's last ACC Tournament Championship was in 1987, not 1989, which IS the last time State won the regular season. You really should try to get those straight, especially after basically proclaiming yourself to be the only true State fan here, as well as all-knowing with regard to the history of State bball, while at the same time calling the rest of us "clowns" out.

  6. wolfonthehill 01/10/2010 at 8:13 AM #

    “I would love to know what the scoring was in the game after the foul called on Horner.”

    Not sure if it’s been posted already, but the number I saw was 34-17 UVa from that point forward.

    THAT’S toughness for ya…

  7. Wulfpack 01/10/2010 at 9:22 AM #

    Evidently, Sid was very upset about the Horner call after the game. Here’s a nice little write-up about the call by Luke DeCock. I’m in total agreement.

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/college_hoops/story/1171282.html

  8. EdMar 01/10/2010 at 9:49 AM #

    Congratulations Lee Fowler and Sidney Lowe! You have been able to accomplish something for me that I have not been able to do in 40 years since I was a senior in High School getting ready to attend NCSU.

    I no longer get all upset over the State losses, I expect them and I’m able to turn the TV off, and actually fall sleep at night quickly without thinking about every mistake. Also when friends talk about our lousy team in the morning it is now easy to agree and say “yes, we suck”, “yes, we are going to finish last”

    Thank you for taking away that feeling for State that had made me loose countless hours of sleep, upset me, and made my heart rate and blood pressure shoot up during games.

    Thanks again for taking away part of the feeling we have for our beloved University.

  9. rtpack24 01/10/2010 at 10:00 AM #

    We missed free throws and that hurt. Mike Woods bad call hurt. Bottom line Sidney got out coached down the stretch. He once again places blame on the players in post game interview. Any blame on players should take place in the locker room and it stays there. Looks bad for Lowe when he puts it on the players because “coaching” is the ablility to get your players to do what you want. I keep hoping that the light comes on but I do not see it. We run we are up double digits then we start playing their game and we lose by eight at home to maybe one of the weakest teams in the league. Hope our new head man is reviewing Mr Fowler’s job performance in the very near future.

  10. jbpackfan 01/10/2010 at 10:01 AM #

    I am generally one of the most optimistic people about our basketball program, but there just isn’t much to base that on. I thought this team was a little different than the past few, but we’re seeing the same results and same issues. I don’t know the solution, and I don’t think there is an easy answer to the problems with the program, and with the athletics department as a whole.

  11. old13 01/10/2010 at 10:15 AM #

    ^ It all starts at the top. Get rid of Foulup, bring in a competent AD, and let him evaluate coaching performance and act on it accordingly.

  12. packfan03 01/10/2010 at 11:52 AM #

    I understand everyone’s frustration, but I don’t understand the perceived entitlement that we should be at the top of the ACC. There are only a few at the top, with everyone else trying to displace the elite. We’ll know what to make of Sidney after next season, when pieces are in place. No more excuses with the recruiting class we are brining in.

    Fowler, on the other hand…I’ll by the bus fare to get him out of town. His incompetency rivals this guy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain

    “As the American historians Will and Ariel Durant put it, Charles II was “short, lame, epileptic, senile, and completely bald before thirty-five, he was always on the verge of death, but repeatedly baffled Christendom by continuing to live.”

    I don’t mean this seriously of course, but, what a quote regarding this former King. I feel wrong laughing…

  13. redwolf87 01/10/2010 at 12:13 PM #

    I find it hard to believe that a team or individual player can’t shoot at least 70-75% from the line consistently, if they are addressing FT shooting in practice with any substance. I have always felt that is a coaching issue.

    There was a coach at another school (that we universally hate) who had a routine of forcing the entire team to line up and hit two free throws without a miss before anybody could leave practice. If one player missed, they all had to start over. You can’t really simulate the pressure of shooting FTs in an ACC game, but it seems to me this might come close. I have no idea if we try to do something like this, but I seriously doubt it.

    As for excitement about this team or NC State athletics, the fire is gone for me too. Despite being the largest university in North Carolina, we have only a regional following and presence in athletics, and it is so far gone now I seriously am concerned, in this age of ESPN etc., that it will never get back to the level of the 70’s-80’s-very early 90’s in my lifetime.

    So, to Lee Fowler: thanks for killing my enthusiasm for the Wolfpack. It took 10 years but you’ve succeeded. I never thought it was possible.

  14. Wulfpack 01/10/2010 at 12:22 PM #

    “I don’t understand the perceived entitlement that we should be at the top of the ACC.”

    I don’t see a whole lot of people upset about the fact that we’re probably not at the top of the league. What I see is folks disappointed that it looks like this is year #4 that we are firmly entrenched at the bottom of the league.

    “We’ll know what to make of Sidney after next season, when pieces are in place. No more excuses with the recruiting class we are bringing in.”

    Agreed. However, many of the “pieces” were supposed (we were told) to be in place this year (Wood, Howell, Painter). It’s early, but these guys haven’t exactly set the world on fire. They will be key role players next year for sure, but I think many of us were hoping for a little more out of them. We’ve had an awful lot of role players in year’s past. That’s all well in good, they are surely necessary to build a program, but they aren’t going to take you near the top. Maybe next year, with what we have coming in, mixed with these guys, we’ll get closer.

  15. packfan03 01/10/2010 at 12:36 PM #

    ^Fair enough. I think some in this forum expected us to be competing for a relatively high spot in the ACC standings in year 4. I did not. My expectations are just lower, I suppose.

    The pieces in place – there is def. some truth in that. Although it would have been nice to have our only blue chipper in this year (Lorenzo). Howell, Painter, Wood…all were ranked around or below the top 50 in recruits last year. It’s clear that Painter is a project, Howell is almost there (similar to Tracy his freshman year), and Wood can do a few things really well, but is average in many other regards.

  16. Ed89 01/10/2010 at 12:38 PM #

    Horner needs to sit more. He’s not helping this team. Sid needs to recognize this. Our PF gets 2 rebounds in 29 minutes? Against UVa. That is pathetic. Howell gets 3 rebs in 10 minutes. Do the math. This season is all but lost, so we should be playing for next year, and the next. Howell should start, and Horner should come in with Vandy. Horner tries to be the playmaker at the end of games, but he just can’t do it. He is a role player if there ever was one. He needs to sit, and Howell needs to play. All this talk about mental toughness is somewhat amusing. Anyone who has toured our practice facility will know what I’m talking about. I got a chance to see it last summer and I seem to recall a couple of messages about mental toughness. Maybe it’s being talked about too much. It’s like leadership. Either you have it or you don’t. You may be able to teach principles, but some have it and some don’t. Unrelated but, I’m also starting to think we should play Javi and Mays together more often. Mays is a decent shooter, and good FT shooter. Sad thing is Degand can’t run an offensive set, so he can’t be a reliable backup PG.

  17. Wisc-Wolf 01/10/2010 at 1:30 PM #

    I am in my fifth season as a season ticket holder and each season I swear this will be my last. I cannot possibly go through this anymore. I grew up watching great NC State basketball in the 1980’s went to State from 1991 – 1995, which I believe is still the four worst years of NC State basketball, and now I travel over an hour each way to go watch State lose to a team they had no business losing to. I am not sure if I have been more discouraged after a game as I was leaving that game yesterday. My wife, a Wisconsin graduate, does not understand why I put myself through this every year and simply rolls her eyes when I tell her about the great recruits coming in. I use to think she does not understand but I am starting to think maybe I am the one who does not understand.

  18. cc4ncspack 01/10/2010 at 2:42 PM #

    Gosh, I sure do miss Reynolds. Atleast it always looked like it was full when it wasnt. I guess the “State Nation” is finally tired of losing, and frankly could care less until something changes. Until then, The N.I.T. is the best possible chance that we ever have for post season play. Agreed?

  19. graywolf 01/10/2010 at 3:18 PM #

    cc4ncspack : “The N.I.T. is the best possible chance that we ever have for post season play. Agreed?” We will not see any post season action this year unless the team gets together to watch it on TV.

  20. blpack 01/10/2010 at 3:57 PM #

    ^Post season?! I just want to win a game.

  21. whope90 01/10/2010 at 4:21 PM #

    In the words of Jim Mora,”Post Season?”,Post Season!!” Are you kidding this team? Post season”” loll

    Does anyone know that Lee Fowler was an assistant coach with Memphis State(now Memphis) when they went to the Final Four in 1985 and that team went on to probation? I wonder if Mr.Fowler had an inpact or was part of that? Why did he not become a head coach? How did he get the AD job? I mean, if all of us Wolfpack fans despise him, how does he hang onto the job?

    Because of that NCAA Bass Fishing Championship?

    The NC State Job is a great opportunity,but we need a visionary to make it happen and Lee Fowley is not that man. You cannot request a “think tank”to hire your football coach(three yrs 16-20) and plot a winning coarse.

    I hope the new chancelor steps in with the Wolfpack club and fans and makes a double change,both AD and Coaches.

  22. whope90 01/10/2010 at 4:23 PM #

    And at least Daniel Snyder wants to win and pays real money for it.
    What has our AD done? 16-14 is progress then i hope i make .50 cents more than minumum wages loll.

  23. Shadow722 01/10/2010 at 5:08 PM #

    If the majority of posters want real change to NCSU basketball, then a through house-cleaning of the program with both Fowler and Sid Lowe being fired is the only solution.

    To expedite that solution, any poster that wants a rapid program change should be applauding every loss, not complaining about every loss. The quickest way to quick relief is for the Wolfpack to go 0-16 in ACC play. And the bigger and more embarrassing the losses the better. So rather than complaining about Williams or Mays getting any playing time, you should be lobbying for more playing time for our worst players.

    Only with a total debacle in this season can the goal of a quick firing of both Fowler and Lowe be achieved.

    Every win by the pack; every close loss to superior competition; every referee call that inexplicably goes our way; every free throw we make, takes use further from your goal.

    Yes, there is a great deal of sarcasm in my above words, but you must understand and support your goal. If the road to success in Wolfpack basketball, in your world vision, lies in getting rid of Fowler and Lowe; then every loss is a nail in their collective coffin, and should be celebrated. Every victory or close loss, or referee call or break that goes our way, should be avoided…….at all costs.

    Think about adopting that attitude; and stop complaining about our losses. Because by having losses furthers the goal of having both Fowler and Lowe replaced, sooner rather than later…….WTNY then has a whole new meaning……..

    Think about it……

  24. wolfonthehill 01/10/2010 at 5:20 PM #

    ^ I’ve been there before… both with Les Robinson & with MOC. I’m not there with Sid yet… I’m FAR from a WTNY’er, but it would be tragic to make a change that keeps next year’s freshman class from stepping foot on campus. College basketball is 80% about recruiting – Sid’s showing an ability to bring in talent, and I’m willing to give him through 2012 to see what he can do with it.

    It’s been 20 years since my freshman year… I can wait 2 more.

  25. MA Wolfpack 01/10/2010 at 5:47 PM #

    Wolfonthehill is ABSOLUTELY correct.

    The only reason to be upset about losing this season is if you expected this team to win games. If you looked at the talent on this roster and expected them to win games, then you are a poor talent evaluator IMO.

    We have very few ACC impact players right now (maybe 0 unless you count Smith who was terrible yesterday). With that said, I think we have a roster full of great compliment players that will thrive with Harrow and Brown (should have had Brown this year). This year is all about developing our freshmen and sophs for next year.

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