TBJ Reports NCSU lags behind on recruiting spending

It’s really no surprise to most of us here at Statefans that the Triangle Business Journal’s Chris Baysden is reporting that NC State spends much less on recruiting than our rivals down the road. In football the difference is simply (and sadly) astronomical. Here is a link to Mr. Baysden’s article: link.

The report sets out information gained from perusing the public records associated with public institutions. Private schools such as Wake Forest and Duke need not make public all of their financial records, but upon request Duke offered some insight into what its programs spend.

In 2008 NC State’s recruiting budget was $275k on football and $125 on men’s basketball.

UNC’s budget expenses totaled $629k on football and $175k on men’s basketball.

The league averages, according to an anonymous survey, were $350k (FB) and $133k (MBB).

When asked, Duke reported that it spends more than the league average on football.

Since Butch Davis has been in Chapel Hill, UNC’s budget for football recruiting has increased 24% up from $506k in 2006-07. The really sad part? Reports indicate that our trend is heading in the opposite direction. TOB’s budget was $325k last year, but has been decreased to $275k for 2009-10.

In response to being shown the huge discrepancy, NC State’s Associate Athletic for Business Operations Diane Moose had this to say: “I’m sure they have their reasons, but Jiminy George that’s a lot of money.”

Reasons? It doesn’t take someone tabbed with the label “Associate Athletic Director” to give a response that is something more than a restatement of the obvious and does not include the words “Jiminy” or “George”. The first is certainly a dedication to excel on the playing field. The other, as has been so often highlighted here on SFN, is the collateral effect of easy marketing for a University with a successful football and basketball program. Ms. Moose, in her defense, is undoubtedly acting on the behest of Mr. Fowler and thus should, perhaps, not be held personally accountable for the cuts that could and likely will seriously effect our ability to compete for recruits. This is Lee Fowler’s modus operandi, and we can definitely see how are coaches are more than fed up with it. The man who so often likes to take credit for building our facilities and running our athletic department in the black fails to self-report that he’s doing so by running our programs into the ground.

The easy opposition to this idea is that TOB has beaten Davis three years running on the field. And that certainly is not lost on us. However, it goes more to the idea that there’s an utter and complete refusal to give the support necessary to our programs so that they can be competitive on the field. I’m picturing a few scenes from Major League with guys beat up and injured in tin wash tubs with 1968 10 h.p. Evinrudes attached to them.

Facilities, you see, are just a slight part of the equation that equals success. Dave Telep is quoted in the TBJ article as saying: ““If you don’t have players, you’re at a decided disadvantage.” This is certainly something all of us who follow NC State sports regularly over a long period of time know all too well. It’s the obvious inability of our administration to understand this concept that remains quite baffling. When the Romans built the Coliseum, they didn’t stage the gladiator games with blind men and lepers. Our coaches have been put at an obvious disadvantage, and it’s to their credit that they’ve been as successful as they have. If you look at discussions of this past football season, you’ll repeatedly see commentary as to the athleticism in relation to our opponents. Keep in mind, we understand this could very well be the result of many, many factors. However, you simply cannot ignore a discrepancy as huge as this and dismiss it as a non-factor in our inability to regularly compete on the field and court.

For crying out loud… even Duke spent more than we did on football recruiting last year. Duke. The school that for the better part of a century fielded a team that drew high school worthy crowds to a less-than-high-school worthy stadium. If there’s ever been a University that has failed to adequately promote and support its football program, it’s Duke.

On the basketball front, Coach Lowe dismissed the discrepancy as a reason to sing the blues. Lowe is quoted as saying: “They allow us to get out and go see just about anybody that we want to see… I don’t see where it’s a disadvantage.” Good for Coach Lowe, but honestly… what would you expect him to say? Also, perhaps the fact that there is no quote from TOB speaks even louder. Obviously the discrepancy in football is the most glaring, and thus the most reasonably harmful to our program.

What does this say about the mindset in our Athletic Department? And more importantly, what does it say about the man who embodies it? How long will butts fill the seats of our wonderful facility if our administration fails to provide our coaches with the ability to put competitive teams on the field? What good is an empty Coliseum?

Basketball Recruiting Football Recruiting

54 Responses to TBJ Reports NCSU lags behind on recruiting spending

  1. Hot Sauce 12/07/2009 at 11:31 PM #

    The only reason Fowler is still here is because he’s operating in the black. No wonder we are in the black if we are lagging that far behind in spending. Just another reason to get frustrated at State College

  2. turfpack 12/08/2009 at 12:08 AM #

    But yet Foulup sleep’s like a baby.-Caus ever thang gona be all rite
    fellers- we got plentia money and real nice f-f-f sil-a-tees- ya’ll come back you here!
    What a piece of $%$##@!
    SORRY,WHERE’S THE TYLENOL(OR A DRINK -RITE LEE BOY)

  3. mwcric 12/08/2009 at 2:10 AM #

    Do the coaches not have a say in their respective sports’ budgets? Does Fowler set the budget in stone and pass it down, or do the coaches put together a budget proposal and send it up for approval, and then the final amount is negotiated? I’m asking because I personally have not been impressed with TOB’s recruiting hauls thus far; but before this story I just assumed he operated on the premise of landing under-the-radar players and turning them into BCS talent. Could it be that he’s trying to get the most bang from his relatively meager buck instead? Or, is he requesting a recruiting budget that is significantly lower than most because he doesn’t feel he needs it, given that he appears to me to rely on lesser-heralded in-state and regional recruits (I guess I should go to rivals.com and confirm that, but it’s late and I’m too lazy)? And if so, does/would that savings be applied elsewhere toward the team’s budget? This is interesting to me because, IIRC, there was no shortage of money being spent on football when CTC was hired. Wasn’t CTC’s first staff the first million-dollar coaching staff in NCAA history, or am I way off on that? If the money was there then to spend, I would certainly think there’d be more now instead of less, as revenues should be higher.

  4. Moosey 12/08/2009 at 2:41 AM #

    At the risk of repercussions, I found info that Moose is on the ball:

  5. TOB4PREZ 12/08/2009 at 8:29 AM #

    Aren’t we currently projected with a BETTER class than unc-ch for next year??? I fail to see the problem with getting MORE from less.
    Hasn’t TOB outrecruited Butch 2 of the last 3 years if we include this one??? TOB is exponentially wiser (and can accomplish MORE while spending LESS) than his counterpart on the hill, and for some reason this board thinks that’s a bad thing. I’m not following.

  6. VaWolf82 12/08/2009 at 8:42 AM #

    It’s useless to repair recruiting classes that are not final and TOB has not outrecruited Butch twice (based on class rankings). According to Scout, the best that TOB has done relative to Buch is 29-30 (essentially a tie) two classes ago

  7. TOB4PREZ 12/08/2009 at 9:51 AM #

    you can deny it all you want vawolf…. TOB’s current class (verbals) is greater than Butch’s… PERIOD. and if you’re so hellbent on proclaiming that “verbals” don’t mean anything and are ready to annoint tChief as the king recruiter, how about you show us how many of butch’s highly touted class (that SIGNED) from last year actually made it to campus… here’s a hint- HE LOST A LOT of the bigger names. btw- Rivals > Scout relative to football recruiting all day every day.

  8. VaWolf82 12/08/2009 at 10:09 AM #

    No one is denying anything. It’s just that there is nothing meaningful to discuss until the classes are finalized.

  9. GAWolf 12/08/2009 at 10:09 AM #

    Looking at our secondary this past year, I believe we’re losing on the talent front at least to some extent. TOB4PREZ, I agree that our class is pretty decent if not good… especially considering this story. SO… with that in mind… take a moment to think of what MIGHT be able to get done here if our University and the Athletic Director properly support the coaches.

  10. JEOH2 12/08/2009 at 10:31 AM #

    The Problem is Potentially a Catch-22. It Seems as If Every year the Athletic Fee that is Proposed is Higher then in years past. Yet when the suggestion for the fee is brought to students (i.e. Student Senate & Student Body President) the proposal is heavily debated. Why!? Because some students argue against giving more money to atheletics because of the lack of significant results and others argue that without a higher fee we’ll never reach those results. The majority is usually the latter rather then the former. So students often OPPOSE more money in athletics, when more money for recruitment could potentially make us more competitive. Give more money to a program that doesn’t deserve it at times or don’t give money and continue the status quo. In student’s minds a Catch-22. Now we all know that in the end, on most issues, student’s have very little impact on the decisions. Yet when it comes to tuition and fees student reps are appointed who are actual voting members of the fee committee itself. Not considering the fact the Student Body President is a voting member of the BOT. Rarely do student leaders get a clear budget from athletics on this issue (probably for some good reasons) but, I wonder if they had more access to information like this, how their opinions…and decisions may be altered….

  11. wolfmanmat 12/08/2009 at 11:06 AM #

    We can’t keep comparing our budget to UNC. Look at donors. UNC almost doubles our contributions from donors. They are working with a bigger pot. So, we should probably expect to spend 1/2 of what they do because our donations are roughly 1/2 of their’s. We need more Wolfpack backers to give back the way Carolina boosters do. We can name our “big” donors and put them on 1 hand…we know their names so I won’t get into that; UNC has tons of “large” donors. We have done a poor job of getting our most wealthy Wolfpack grads to give significant amounts to athletics. We have done a GREAT job of getting membership in the Wolfpack Club, but with 20,000 members and only 27,000,000 in donations, our members are giving roughly 100 bucks a month each. And that factors everyone; many give much less because a handful of people give alot. Carolina’s club is smaller but gives boatloads more. We need more wealthy Pack backers to step up before we can hope to rival UNC athletics. Now, I understand that this is kind of a “chicken and the egg” argument…ie. if our programs were relevant, more people would give larger amounts…If people thought Fowler would use the money properly, they would give more. I understand these points. But, Carolina fans give and give and then pressure administration. See Matt Daughtery, Bill Gutheridge, John Bunting. Carolina has MANY big donors who get together and can pressure management…and they have the money to back it up(see 1 million from Rams Club for Butch at the drop of a hat) We don’t have that. The one’s we do have act as pawns for Lee. We need more influential large donors because it is clear that the administration doesn’t feel threatened or even obligated to listen to the masses of small donors we have.

  12. Scooter 12/08/2009 at 11:27 AM #

    And after 10 days of successes (UNC and Marquette), we’re back around to the Fowler/Athletic Department argument… At the same time, numbers don’t lie and this explains quite a bit. The coaches have no accountability because they have nothing to account for — the department has their hands tied!

    The bigger question — which came first, the proverbial chicken (we lose… a lot) or the egg (no recruiting budget)…

  13. GAWolf 12/08/2009 at 12:55 PM #

    JEOH2: Great points. Just another reason it’s time to breath new life… and new perspective… into the department.

  14. Rick 12/08/2009 at 1:31 PM #

    “The man who so often likes to take credit for building our facilities and running our athletic department in the black fails to self-report that he’s doing so by running our programs into the ground.”

    This story reminds me of a former room mate I had. He was hell bent on being a general contract. He got his license and his Dad funded his first house. He was in a nice neighborhood where the houses ran well about %500k. And yet he was buying the cheapest of everything for the house. He was getting the cheapest lumber and materials. He was hiring street people to do the work. He was trying to make a nice house and pocket the extra money. What he did not understand was you have to make a nice house in order to stay in business. Last time I ran into him he is selling jewelry.

    You go cheap like that it might work short term but you will not succeed long term like that.

  15. hball57 12/08/2009 at 5:34 PM #

    Again, a comparison of numbers needs to be supported by more information.

    First I think that you can throw Duke out of the equasion. Duke has to recruit nationally so a significantly higher amount makes sense.

    Secondly, it all depends upon your recruiting philosophy. If TOB decides he wants to work locally out, he would spend less that UNC going from coast to coast.

    Also, the Coaches have input in their own budgets. The make a request to the AD’s office; it is not the other way around. And TOB has mentioned that, at HIS direction, they came up with ways to cut their budget accross the board due to the economic situation.

    So in the basketball spending, where did NC State find their recruits? Atlanta, North Carolina, Indiana. Where are UNC’s recruits from? Texas, Iowa, Califonia. So who will spend more on recruiting?

  16. SiriusPack 12/08/2009 at 8:48 PM #

    This sounds like the perfect thing to bring up at the Spring Caravan.

  17. aPACKadeez 12/09/2009 at 1:20 AM #

    Speaking of spending, remember CTC was able to get the facilities done up etc. He’s being let go from FSU after the bowl game…I wonder what Chuck will end up doing?

  18. RegularExpression 12/09/2009 at 10:50 AM #

    wolfmanmat, I curious as to how you come to the conclusion that UNC donors give twice as much as NC State athletic donors. According to the Rams Club Annual Report UNC donors gave $23,785,000 in 2008-09 and they had 15,881 donors.

    You may be thinking of donations to their alumni association, which no doubt dwarf ours. Or am I missing some information?

  19. Girlfriend in a Coma 12/09/2009 at 11:48 AM #

    Clearly Fowler has pictures of someone with a goat.

  20. JEOH2 12/09/2009 at 12:21 PM #

    just to clarify, that was “wlfmanmat” who spoke about the donors…not me

  21. RegularExpression 12/09/2009 at 1:44 PM #

    Sorry JEOH2, I fixed that error.

  22. RabidWolf 12/09/2009 at 10:37 PM #

    Did Diane Moose ACTUALLY use the phrase “Jimmy George”??

  23. BJD95 12/09/2009 at 11:34 PM #

    My decision to cut financial ties looks better everyday. I’m a fool to have contributed for as long as I have.

  24. turfpack 12/09/2009 at 11:41 PM #

    If you win they will come..
    If you win they will give….
    If you win they will spend….
    If you get a better AD
    Then they will win ..
    Then they will give..
    Then they will(CAN)spend..
    Could be something to this you think?

  25. turfpack 12/09/2009 at 11:43 PM #

    BJD95 -BEST 2000 DOLLARS I EVER SAVED.

Leave a Reply