It’s Time The ACC Admitted Its Mistake – Boston College Shouldn’t Be An ACC Team

The annual bowl rota of the ACC took a major nosedive this week when the conference refused to give the Gator Bowl flexibility in selecting an ACC team to play in their annual game.  In place of the Gator Bowl, the Independence Bowl now takes its place.  The Independence is in Shreveport, Louisiana, deep in the heart of SEC country, far from the footprint of the ACC, and in a city that would never rank in any sane person’s list of great American tourist destinations.

So basically in simple terms, the ACC gave up the Gator Bowl — a convenient trip for fans of most ACC members — for the sake of Boston College.

That’s because the ACC’s within-one-win selection rule is for BC. You could argue Wake Forest too, but Wake has had decent representation when they go to bowl games, given their size and home market. You cannot say either for BC.

Tell me again why the ACC allowed BC to join. As I recall:

1. It is in Boston, and has a huge TV market. Which is funny. Did the ACC even complete cursory due diligence prior to issuing an invitation? Boston is all about The Sawks, The Patriots, The Celtics, the Bruins and then maybe, just maybe, BC. In other words, they have as much impact in that market as Manchester United does in the Raleigh-Cary MSA. Not much. If any.

2. Getting the magical 12th member to create a conference championship game for football. So far, that conference title game has been a disaster. It is so popular that a few Texas HIGH SCHOOLS regularly have more fans at its games than does the ACC Title Game. Think about that – the ACCT game for football is such a failure it is smaller than a Texas high school game. That’s a REAL big time sporting even you created there, Mr. Swofford.

3. The ACC tournament in Fenway Park. To which I say “so what?” Yes, Fenway is historic and home to a major league baseball team. It is also a long way away from the center of the base of the conference and would not draw throngs locally. Did I mention the Red Sox?  And even though college baseball is gaining in popularity, it is nevertheless a non-revenue sport that should never have much consideration where weighty matters like conference expansion is concerned.

4. The ACC Basketball Tournament in Boston. Well, that would draw the usual high-value donors, but the bulk of the fans watch the tourney on TV and don’t give a damn where it is played. Unless it is in NC, DC or the ATL, where they can go and buy ducats from the first and second round losers to see “their” teams. I know plenty of NC and Duke fans that make plans to do that every year. Boston is a pretty expensive trip to go scalp tickets.

None of those drivers has worked out for the ACC. BC is a drain on the other eleven teams.  Its continued presence is effectively punishing the fans of the other teams.  Call it what it is…a boat anchor that’s starting to drag the ship to the bottom with it.

West_VirginiaI think that the conference should quietly invite a team closer to the rest of the league that would bring some interest. West Virginia maybe, if you could talk them into jumping ship out of the Big East.  WVU and Virginia Tech are blood rivals non-pareil, and their annual football game ranks just below the much-more-hyped classics such as Ohio State-Michigan or Alabama-Auburn.  They take it seriously, and it is the sort of game – given the proper promotion – that can become a signature matchup for the league, one that is at least the match of Miami-FSU.  As for the rest of the ACC, it would not take long to develop strong rivalries. WVU fans would see to that.  Rivalries drive conference interest, and when a Clemson-WVU or an NC State – WVU game becomes a huge deal, you know you have achieved success.

Penn_StateIn a dream world, if Swofford could sell ice cubes to Eskimoes (err, Inuit).. he could successfully recruit Penn State. Penn State would come with their huge football program and its national credibility.  Anyone who has ever spent much time in eastern Pennsylvania or gone to Happy Valley for a game can tell you how big football is there.  Penn State steats 107,282 fans in Beaver Stadium…which ought to give you an idea of how big football is up there. And did you know that one in one hundred living alumni of any university holds a degree from Penn State? You could say that PSU would be a drain on hoops and have a good point, but that’s something that would cure itself, and quite quickly.  That’s because within the penumbra of Penn State is the  Philadelphia market.   There are plenty of great hoops players there, and given the exposure of the ACC, Penn State could build a competitive hoops program within five years.

Unfortunately, the ACC missed out on getting Penn State in the 80’s when they wanted to join the conference.  Now they are locked into the Big Ten, and it would almost be a miracle to get them to change affiliations.  But unless one tries, how can they know for sure.

Notre_DameNotre Dame will eventually have to join a conference in order to continue being a real force in college sports.  If it is academics, tradition, fanbase and reach that you want, Notre Dame fits the bill and then some.  Problem is, Notre Dame is far outside the geographic footprint of the ACC and since they already have a national TV contract all to themselves, coupled with a Big East affiliation, the Fighting Irish have no urgent desire to do anything.  They don’t have to share their revenue and as such don’t really need a major conference…yet.  Times are changing, however, and it may come to pass one day that the Irish will need a full ACC, Big Ten or Big East affiliation.  That will come sometime after NBC and Notre Dame part ways, and that’s a long time coming.

Then there’s the easy fit, but one that will raise the hackles on the back of most ACC fans’ necks.  ECU. Yes, ECU.  Our little brother institution down east.

East_CarolinaAs easy as it would be to make a case against ECU, what with its small TV market and relatively small alumni base, one could also say that ECU would be a better fit in the ACC than is Boston College.  Then again, being in a tiny TV market has yet to hurt Auburn or LSU.  For another thing, ECU considers itself a rival of the Big Four schools now.   I know, stop laughing.  Go and ask an ECU fan who they would want to beat the most in football in a given year, and they would almost certainly say NC State or UNC.   Ask them what program they would like to see their school build up into a competitive one, and they would say hoops.

A number of State fans would like to say that ECU’s academics are no match for NC State or UNC’s, but I have yet to see a football or basketball game where the fans cheer the SAT of their given teams.  Besides, ECU’s academics have steadily increased for a couple of decades now, to the point where their nursing and medical schools are well respected.  That joins other colleges at ECU that already had a decent amount of respect.  Yes, ECU would have to change their athlete admission standards.  They could no longer be the safety school of failed recruits from ACC schools.  But to be honest, the catcalls of “ECTC” are as outdated as UNC fans calling NC State “Moo U” — as if there were something bad about agriculture in the first place.

But to be honest, ECU is as much a pipe dream as Penn State for anyone in support of it happening. And there’s not really a lot of support amongst current ACC teams’ fans for ECU. It’s almost inconceivable that other members of the league would approve membership for the Pirates, not for the above reasons, but for the simple reason that they would fear additional NC-based influence on the conference.  As it is now, there is a feeling that the Big Four “owns” the ACC and adding a fifth team from North Carolina has little chance.  But that doesn’t mean that ECU wouldn’t be a better fit in the conference than BC, despite its weaknesses.  Truth it, BC is just that bad.

Bottom line is that it is time for the ACC to  vote BC off of the island, they’ve done enough damage to this conference already.  This is a college with a smaller fanbase than a lot of Texas high schools, after all.  Truth is, BC will forever be the albatross around John Swofford’s neck so long as they are a member of the ACC.  Swofford’s number one mission at the moment should be trying to find an effective replacement for a failed member that doesn’t fit, one that is perhaps the weakest and worst member of any BCS school.  If he doesn’t, he may allow the ACC to cease being considered a major conference.  After all, major conferences don’t have major bowls in Shreveport.  Leave that to the also-ran conferences.

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79 Responses to It’s Time The ACC Admitted Its Mistake – Boston College Shouldn’t Be An ACC Team

  1. southernmiss77 10/09/2009 at 12:32 PM #

    Dido Wulfpack. I have a very good friend who is a senior at NCSU this year, majoring in computer design. He’s one of the most talented web designers I’ve ever met. So I wish BC posters would refrain from lowbrow comments about NCSU’s “low academic and socio-economic” stature.

  2. Alpha Wolf 10/09/2009 at 12:48 PM #

    SFN: On The Cheap

    Here is a look at athletic fundraising and booster club input.

    NC State raised $27,254,723, 14th in the nation, which fits right in with news reports labeling the Wolfpack Club as a top-20 booster club. It has also raised $125,625,000 in the past seven years in capital campaigns. Then again, you see that every time you enter Carter-Finley or the RBC Center.

    NC State fans made the Wolfpack Club one of five booster organizations in the country to exceed 20,000 members. It has sold out its football stadium despite two expansions and throughout a subpar period in football which brought about a coaching change.

    BC, $19,000,000, 31st in country. $64,000,000 in capital campaigns.

    Where the Orlando paper gets their numbers is a question.

    and “odd man out” my ass.

  3. DrJackRyan 10/09/2009 at 1:21 PM #

    Alpha –

    You respond to my comment about poor academics by stating that your school is the “largest” in North Carolina? Do they not teach the difference between quality and quantity at NC State?

    Similarly, your comments about “value”? Do you literally not understand the difference between quality and value? Here is an example: the Mercedes is a quality car, the Honda is a good value.

    You still haven’t shown me anything that disproves my assertion that NC State has the worst academic standards and reputation in the ACC.

    By the way here are the graduation rates for ACC Football. Your school ranks second to last:

    Graduation Rankings and Rates

    3 (t) BC (92%)
    3 (t) Duke (92%)
    7 Wake Forest (83%)
    9 UNC (78%)
    15 Virginia Tech (75%)
    20 Miami (70%)
    24 Florida State (69%)
    25 (t) Clemson (68%)
    25 (t) Maryland (68%)
    31 Virginia (66%)
    43 Nc State (59%)

    Are you really sure you wouldn’t fit in better in the Big East?

  4. ncsufan13 10/09/2009 at 1:30 PM #

    Athletics revenue data is relatively easy to lookup. The “Equity in Athletics” government run website ope.ed.gov/athletics has numbers on every college athletics department.

    To spell out the differences between NC State’s revenues and BC’s here are the most recently published numbers (for 2007 I believe).
    Men’s Football: NC State $19.9 million, BC $18.6 million
    Men’s Basketball: NC State $11.1 million, BC $6 million
    Women’s & other varsity sports: NC State $3.2 million, BC $14.4 million
    Alumni and other donations: NC State $9.7 million, BC $18.9 million

    While NC State makes more revenue from the two most popular sports, Men’s football and basketball, BC makes substantially more revenue from other varsity sports and receives quite a bit more in donations.

  5. DrJackRyan 10/09/2009 at 1:32 PM #

    You:

    “NC State raised $27,254,723, 14th in the nation, which fits right in with news reports labeling the Wolfpack Club as a top-20 booster club. It has also raised $125,625,000 in the past seven years in capital campaigns.”

    NC State fans made the Wolfpack Club one of five booster organizations in the country to exceed 20,000 members. It has sold out its football stadium despite two expansions and throughout a subpar period in football which brought about a coaching change.

    BC, $19,000,000, 31st in country. $64,000,000 in capital campaigns.”

    Great. Now do the per capital calculations. NC State has about 10 times as many living alumni as BC. So on a per capita basis BC is either much richer or more generous. Probably both. Now you know why the tv folks and other sponsors wanted BC. They would rather advertise BMWs and Volvos to the BC alumni than Popeye’s and Wendy’s to the NC State alumni.

    You are starting to tread on a thin line with your insults. One more and it is goodbye.

  6. MP 10/09/2009 at 1:33 PM #

    I was born & bred in ACC country and have loved the ACC all my life. When Boston College was admitted, that changed a little bit and no other teams that have been admitted had that effect (although I felt the same about Syracuse). Just a terrible fit, regardless of any other factors. The people who drove this expansion simply did not take care of the base by adding BC.

    Penn State, absolutely. West Virginia, yes. Rutgers, maybe. ECU, no. Notre Dame, whatever.

  7. ncsufan13 10/09/2009 at 1:37 PM #

    “They would rather advertise BMWs and Volvos to the BC alumni”

    I see no problem with that fact that NC State community is not made up of a bunch of uppity snobs from Boston.

    That’s not to say that NCSU alumni are dumb either. The Raleigh area is one of the fastest growing cities in the country and is known world wide for its technology and business sectors. It wasn’t rated the “smartest” city in the country for no reason. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-10-04/americas-smartest-cities—from-first-to-worst/#)

  8. TrueBlue 10/09/2009 at 1:54 PM #

    I think I have read enough to where I feel the need to chime in here. For the record I am a graduate of UNC, so blast me if you must, State fans.

    DrJackRyan, your shagging on NC State as a school and its fans is borderline lunacy. As the newest member of the ACC you should know better than to log on to one of the biggest blogs for the expressed intent of insulting the fans of a founding conference member of the school the site supports. Obviously you do not which is telling where your taste and tact are concerned. Your insults about Wendy’s proves you to be a jackass.

    The fact is that NC State University is a member of the UNC system and its record of education and athletics speaks for itself. That it helped found the ACC and helped to make ACC basketball what it is today also speaks for itself. It is an outstanding record and NC State is an outstanding college. The idea that NC State should ever leave the ACC in favor of Boston College is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Maybe you have never heard of Everett Case but he was one of the most important figures in college basketball history. Where did he coach? NC State. Maybe you have never heard of David Thompson, a player often considered the best to have ever played in a college uniform. He played for NC State. Maybe you have never heard of Jim Valvano either. Sitting here I think your grasp of the ACC and its roots are nonexistent.

    Their history in college basketball is better than yours. They would never leave the ACC unwillingly, and you can bet that the fans of Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, Virginia, Maryland and Clemson would not let them. We might like beating them every time we play, and we let them know about it too. But we live with them and we work with them and one thing is for sure. NC State is family. You have yet to earn that right, so pipe down.

    Truth is that I would rather work with an NC State graduate because I know he knows what he is doing. I cannot say the same for you. Based on what I am reading from you and your other fans I am not the least impressed.

  9. packplantpath 10/09/2009 at 1:59 PM #

    TrueBlue,

    I think I puked a little there 🙂

  10. TrueBlue 10/09/2009 at 2:01 PM #

    packplantpath

    My sister went to State. I only hate y’all on game day. 😉

  11. youguysarefunny 10/09/2009 at 2:02 PM #

    Hello, Penn State is NEVER going to walk through the ACC front door. You may look into a thing called the CIC (Curriculum of Institutional Cooperation). It’s a big deal Academically to the 11 Big 10 schools, and would be a deal breaker for a school like Penn State to lose that affiliation that they have with being in the Big 10.
    As far as Boston College is concerned…….you people are all upset by the fact that the Gator Bowl is going away, a bowl that NC State has been to a whopping 3 times in 68 years. The old Peach Bowl (chicken bowl) is a better bowl. The Champs Bowl gives a better opponent as well.
    BC Fans should travel to Bowl Games. It is, though, the 3rd smallest school by Enrollment in the ACC (Duke, Wake), yet BC has been to 10 straight bowl games. Being a small school, BC does not have the alumni base that bigger schools like NC State have, and thus do not fill bowl ticket allotments. As the 3rd smallest school though, do you see Duke and Wake Forest producing Football teams like BC? No. During the same time period, NC State has been to 6 bowls. BC’s 10 Bowls have been Nashville (2), Charlotte (2), Detroit, San Francisco, Honolulu, Boise, Orlando, and Tucson. A lot of those locations are undesirable. I’m sure if NC State went to Nashville or Charlotte, everyone would hop in a car and go, no problem. That’s not easy for BC Fans to just go ahead and do. Those 10 bowl games for BC have all been 2nd tier bowls, a big reason why your current football coach was let out the door at BC. Since 1998, NC State has been to Orlando 4 times, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Charlotte once each. No wonder your fans hate the Champs Bowl!
    Why bash BC? They bring a good athletic and academic mix to the league. It’s actually on the Atlantic Coast. It’s closer to the Triangle than Miami.

  12. Dr. BadgerPack 10/09/2009 at 2:04 PM #

    Sigh. The academic debates are pointless. It is pretty well established that in terms of undergraduate education you are going to get about the same thing at any major institution. Heck, in most sciences the curricula are specifically laid out by various professional societies, etc. You may get variance in faculty, but every University has their share of both good and bad professors; you learn who to avoid through doing your research as a student. At any major college, you have the potential for the same education (specialty fields notwithstanding). It is simply up to the student to make the most of it.

    The biggest educational differences come in graduate programs, and you won’t often find an institution that is better across the board than another given institution. This is going to be tied to the research programs of the professors, and the world leaders in various fields are scattered.

    Citing the rankings to make a point one way or the other is rather, err, pointless unless speaking specifically about a particular graduate program. That is still inexact unless you look at the rankings of the specialty fields within that program.

    On a second note… looks like NC State has 156,297 living alumni and BC’s business school has 25,260. The 10X multiplier is a bit high, unless of course the remainder of the university has about negative 10,000 living alumni.

  13. Alpha Wolf 10/09/2009 at 2:08 PM #

    Well, youguysarefunny, I would think that BC graduates could jump in their Gulfstream jet and fly to the games, whereas we poor little old NC State graduates would have to ask off from Wendy’s. Dr. Ryan told us so, and he’s smarter than us little ole yoo hoos.

    The only thing they would need is to borrow some Grey Poupon.

  14. youguysarefunny 10/09/2009 at 2:18 PM #

    Alpha Wolf,
    I never dogged your school, besides the Gator Bowl comment.
    With that said, what is your grudge against BC? BC fans are going to come on here with grudges (albeit some have said some unnecessary things), but as a conference mate, what has Boston College done to ruin the conference? –3rd most conference wins in basketball since merger
    –been to 7 of last 8 NCAA Basketball Tournaments
    –been to 2 ACC Football Championship Games
    –10 straight bowls
    –graduates it’s players
    The bowl game fan comment…..you’ve got a point, but like i said in the original post, you are dealing with the 3rd smallest school in the conference.
    As a fan of the ACC, would you go to the ACC Championship Football Game, when held in your own state, if NC State was NOT in the game? You have 4 ACC schools in North Carolina, that as general fans, could go to that game. Would you go to the ACCCG if your team was involved and the game was in Massachusetts? Maybe you would, because in North Carolina, the number of options for a sports fan are not as great as they are in MA. That’s not a slam at your state or a praise where I live, it’s a fact, and that it should not be held against BC.
    PS: I am NOT an alum of BC, just a fan of college sports, BC, and the ACC as a whole

  15. Alpha Wolf 10/09/2009 at 2:27 PM #

    Would I go to an ACCT game were it in Charlotte?

    I would say probably yes. Sorry if that sounds conditional, but if ticket prices were driven through the roof (say $125 for good seats) then I would have to make a decision. That decision would largely rest on whether we were going to our own bowl game and of course what the Mrs. had to say.

  16. whalepack1 10/09/2009 at 2:31 PM #

    I think losing the Gator Bowl over that stupid BC rule sucks, but if you have never been to Shreveport, shut up. my daughter lives there now and i visited last spring. beautiful city,beautiful riverboat casinos, and Ernests restuarant. Beats any place i have been to in New Orleans, DC, or New York.

  17. LKNpackfan 10/09/2009 at 2:33 PM #

    I think the post makes it pretty clear – it’s not about winning or losing, it’s about ROI.
    A bowl game with BC doesn’t sell tickets. So, again, because the ACC forces bowls to take the highest team (instead of skipping to a school with higher turnouts), the higher profile post-season games are starting to simply re-associate with other conferences, instead of taking a loss or small gain.

    With that said, the strongest argument against the post isn’t made with juvenile insults, its made with 3 words – Just Beat BC.
    If the other members of the conference could just beat them, then the eagles wouldn’t finish 2nd and 3rd every year.

  18. ryebread 10/09/2009 at 2:40 PM #

    I think these types of conversations about BC raise hackles with their fanbase for legitimate reasons. If I went to other boards and saw conversations about kicking NC State out of the ACC, I’d be defensive as well.

    Having said that, I do have some questions for the BC fans that are based on my experiences living in the NE and my numerous trips to Boston for work. Do you actually like being in the ACC? Do you actually like the travel associated with being in this league? Do you actually like the schools that you’re affiliated with? Would you not prefer to play your geographical rivals? Would you not prefer to be affiliated with and play schools with a more similar student body and alumni group?

    If BC fans were to look hard in the mirror, I think they’d come to the same conclusion that I have. I really don’t think that BC likes being in the ACC or is really a good fit for many of the reasons that other member schools of the ACC cite in these discussions.

    I still ultimately think schools like Rutgers and Penn State are better fits. I also think their fan bases would be happy in the ACC.

    PSU may not come due to their affiliation with the Big 10/U of Chicago (which has been called out), but they might once Joe Pa leaves. In my dream expansion plan, PSU was there with Miami and VT so I’m admittedly not going to talk in any sort of sports thread on this topic without mentioning them. PSU + Miami + VT + ACC seemed like a natural marriage.

    I think Rutgers would be very open to listening about a chance to join. I actually think that BC would probably be open to returning to the Big East. It could be a win/win for all parties.

  19. youguysarefunny 10/09/2009 at 2:46 PM #

    Ryebread,

    If you go to the BC Message Boards, they have nothing but good things to say about anything ACC. The football road trips, the fanfare with other ACC Fans, being associated with other schools that are closely related to BC……yeah, not many people would say they hate the ACC. When all those BC wanting to go back to the Big East rumors popup, BC fans instantly say that they want no part of the Big East.

    The only “reasons” I read from the ACC Fans for BC not being wanted is that “they don’t fit”. Fit what? Does Miami “fit”? You want Rutgers to join? HUH? What do they have to offer?

  20. rodtheman 10/09/2009 at 2:53 PM #

    The ACC expanded as it was lagging behind the SEC and other power conferences, and getting weaker. Now, the ACC is lagging behind the SEC and other power conferences, and dominated by Big East Transfers.

    The expansion was a mistake, but will likely never be undone. Penn St, ND, adn others have no reason to join. Non-BCS schools like ECU will really shake up the North Carolina football world very soon after entering a BCS league, and evening the playing field.

  21. Alpha Wolf 10/09/2009 at 2:53 PM #

    “The only “reasons” I read from the ACC Fans for BC not being wanted is that “they don’t fit”. Fit what? Does Miami “fit”? ”

    Look at the geographic footprint of the conference. Which is the outlier?

    As for Miami fitting, they do because they are in Florida, and share the state with FSU…which is a natural rival. Additionally Florida is in the southeast US.

    Rutgers, I wouldn’t hazard to try to say why they would be a logical fit, other than MD and NJ are relatively close.

    None of this is going to happen, of course.

  22. youguysarefunny 10/09/2009 at 3:10 PM #

    BC is developing a couple good rivalries on the football field with VA Tech and Clemson.

    Miami is still further from the Triangle than Boston.

  23. Classof89 10/09/2009 at 3:24 PM #

    BC= Rich kids who couldn’t get into an Ivy League School.

    BTW, I’m NC State ’89, Harvard ’93. Studied more at State than up there.

  24. rtpack24 10/09/2009 at 3:32 PM #

    ECU in the ACC? Put the crack pipe down.

  25. choppack1 10/09/2009 at 3:38 PM #

    Well, this has turned into a crazy thread.

    In spite of Jackryan’s posting, I’m all for BC being in the ACC. On the field, they’ve more than held their weight. They haven’t done a very good job traveling, but it’s not like Swofford couldn’t see that a mile away.

    And I’m telling you – if you get a chance make the trip to Boston. It’s a fun town. Chestnut Hill may not be the best venue in the ACC to watch a game (the stadium is definitely nice though) – but Boston may be the best city to visit in the conference.

    In short, I don’t think the ACC screwed up admitting BC. I DO think Swofford screwed up when he tried to bully the bowls into taking BC and a couple of the other schools in our conference that don’t travel that well, but as I explained earlier – he needs to own that.

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