Lorenzo Brown – Another One Bites the Dust

I apologize for not being more timely – I’ve been on vacation and out of the loop. But yes, what you may have heard is indeed true – Lorenzo Brown is headed to prep school and will not suit up for the 2009-10 Wolfpack squad. No matter how down the ACC may be, this is almost certainly a fatal blow for NC State’s already remote chance to contend for first division status.

Long-time readers will note that SFN commenter Noah has been hinting about possible issues with Brown ever since he committed to the Pack. Although we (and you) may fervently hope Noah is wrong, perhaps it’s time to stop expecting him to be so.

The obvious question now is “what happens next?” We can break that down into two parts – what should happen, and what to expect from the Lowe camp and his enablers.

On the should side of the ledger, nothing changes in the bar set, just the math regarding the likelihood of clearing it. Again, the fundamental key is distinguishing between fault and responsibility. While it is not Lowe’s fault that Lorenzo Brown’s grades fell short of what Georgia requires, in Season #4 the state of the program is Lowe’s absolute and unequivocal responsibility. The product on the floor must be something that NC State can be proud of. No excuses. Giving Lowe “credit” for recruiting rankings while giving him a pass when said recruits fail to qualify is the height of idiocy. But if you focus on bottom-line responsibility, it doesn’t matter. You can produce by bringing in great talent (ala Guy Lewis), or you can overachieve with lesser talent (ala Seth Greenberg). Either way, you have to produce. Lowe is not likely to produce with the current roster, but that’s on him. He is the coach and the general manager.

So, back to prong two. What should you expect? Well, for Team Lowe and its dwindling band of true believers, this is actually perfect. It gives you the perfect opportunity to intensify the pre-emptive excuse making. WTNY!!!!! Since almost every pundit will now expect State to finish 11th or 12th, they can (and will) shift the focus to beat “expectations” – despite the fact that expectations are so low because of the personnel Lowe has brought in and Lowe’s demonstrated coaching “acumen.” A career-best 9th place finish after four years gets you a pink slip from 95% of major D-1 programs, but the dead-enders would demand a contract extension instead. And since it isn’t possible to perform below expectations (i.e., you can’t fall off the floor), they will deem anyone not satisfied with 2009-10 results as delusional. Expect Fowler (if he’s still here) to break out the “lunatic fringe” term again.

More importantly, the status quo folks get to double down on blackmail. Lorenzo Brown and Ryan Harrow are both from the same recruiting pipeline, and will thus have access to the same set of talking points (that Harrow has already been testing out over the summer). Expect this to get a lot less subtle, and a lot more public – certainly no later than January 2010 (fun idea – run a pool for the date of the next public article with a qualifying Brown or Harrow quote). With Lowe’s tacit or explicit approval, these young men will declare that they are committed to Sidney Lowe, not NC State. This is certainly true of a certain individual deeply intertwined with their recruitment. And since recruits have not taken the court in a college game (and thus only have untapped potential for greatness, and no weaknesses in the eyes of many), some people will take this as a legitimate consideration. This is true despite what happened the last time NC State faced such a situation, which led to five years of basketball limbo – and that was with the best player in school history since the legendary David Thompson, not two Top 50 kids.

Feel free to shoot the messenger in the comments – but that’s simply how I see things shaking out. Things are ugly in West Raleigh, and about to get much, much uglier. Brace yourselves for the coming storm.

Projected 2009-2010 NC State Basketball Roster

Senior Class
(1) Dennis Horner (F)
(2) Farnold Degand (PG)

Junior Class
(3) Javi Gonzalez (PG)
(4) Tracy Smith (4F)

Sophomore Class
(5) Johnny Thomas (Wing)
(6) Julius Mays (PG/SG)
(7) CJ Williams (Wing)

Freshman Class
(8) Scott Wood (Wing)
(9) DeShawn Painter (PF/C)
(10) Richard Howell (PF)
(11) Josh Davis (WF)
(12) Jordan Vandenberg (C)

2010 Commits
(13) Lorenzo Brown (PG/SG)
(1) Departure of Dennis Horner – Ryan Harrow (PG)
(2) Departure of Farnold Degand – Previously CJ Leslie (PF/C)

2011 Commits
(3) Departure of Javi Gonzalez
(4) Departure of Tracy Smith

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

09-10 Basketball Basketball Recruiting

159 Responses to Lorenzo Brown – Another One Bites the Dust

  1. choppack1 07/13/2009 at 5:01 PM #

    “Wulfpack, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think we were even close to being regular finishers in the top half of the ACC under Herb. ”

    You’re wrong. Maybe you’re confusing the math, confusing top half w/ the Top 3rd?

    2002: tied 3rd – http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2002&c=ACC
    2003: 4th place – http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2003&c=ACC
    2004: 2nd place – http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2004&c=ACC
    2005: 6th place (out of 11) – http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2005&c=ACC
    2006: 4th place (out of 12) – http://kenpom.com/conf.php?y=2006&c=ACC

    That’s 4 season’s in the “top half”, 3 seasons in the “top 3rd”…

  2. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 5:02 PM #

    ^ “No, after Herb got rolling he finished in the top half of the standings around a handful of times. I think we were like 2nd or 3rd once.”

    Key words being “after Herb got rolling”. It took him at least five, if not six years to get rolling. I believe Les Robinson’s leftovers were gone within four years, weren’t they?

    All I’m saying is, give Sid a chance here in his FOURTH year. If you treated Herb this way, he never would have gotten us into the dance. He would have been gone too soon. If we’re having this conversation in Herb’s fourth year, you’re talking about how he needs to go, not how he elevated the program. Why not give Sid the same chance?

  3. ryebread 07/13/2009 at 5:04 PM #

    Unlike LF, I don’t pretend to know basketball. I see some pros and cons with SL from my seats with the RBC. I’m not at the practices. I don’t have any insider information.

    Pros:
    – Gives a pretty good interview and comes across as genuine.
    – I personally think he’s willing to try different things.
    – Pretty good X’s and O’s.
    – Good man to man offense that is aimed at exploiting match ups.
    – Will play “junk defenses” which to me is a thing of beauty.
    – Relates to the players well, at least in the recruiting circles.
    – Really understands NC State.
    – Really wants NC State to win — beyond just padding his wallet or going after the next job.
    – Seems willing to call mentor figures and listen.
    – The guards seem to have shown progress.
    – Players have stayed out of the police blotter (much more so than HWSNBN’s tenure).
    – Players seem to be making the grades.

    Cons:
    – Weird player rotations.
    – Questionable motivator — I’ve seen us come out flat too many times at the start of halves.
    – Questionable player conditioning.
    – Questionable recruiting. Some of the recruits make sense. Some are baffling.
    – We don’t seem to coach rebounding.
    – We don’t seem to coach on the ball pressure on defense.
    – We’ve continually heard rumblings of chemistry issues which suggests that all parties aren’t on the same page.
    – We’ve heard from different players have said numerous times that they didn’t understand the expectations and why they were or weren’t playing.
    – Players don’t seem to be playing instinctively — instead seem to be relying on in game coaching.
    – Zone offense, press offense and out of bounds plays all are lacking.
    – We simply haven’t won enough.
    – Given that we’ve not won enough, we’ve not seen any staff changes to try to shake things up and build a winner.

    All these things lead me to believe we may have a guy who really loves NC State, who we owe a lot to in our basketball history, who really wants to win and who has some pros, but who just may not be head coaching material. He probably would have been a fantastic first assistant to one of our other targets.

  4. Wulfpack 07/13/2009 at 5:07 PM #

    And bradley, of course we should wait and see what Sid can do this season with “his (-1)” guys. Nobody is saying fire the guy right now. But he’s starting the season behind the eightball, not because it’s someone else’s problem, but because he’s been here now 3+ years without being able to build any sort of solid foundation. That is on nobody but Sidney Lowe. There is now a history to judge Sid, and so far it’s not all that good. All me and others are saying is we’re tired of hearing all of the excuses about why we shouldn’t be good. It’s getting old and tiresome. He’s making some damn good money, has a fervent fan base, an outstanding home arena and has some sort of tradition to attempt to sell, though it is steadily disintegrating. Can you please tell me why we shouldn’t be good? Why have we been bad the past three years?

    It’s time to put up or shut up.

  5. StateFans 07/13/2009 at 5:14 PM #

    bradley,

    (1) This blog is not a living being. So, this blog cannot have these feelings that you are attaching to it.

    (2) This blog is made up of multiple different authors who are all encouraged to shaer their diverse points of view. Stop attaching the feelings and writings of some of the individuals and spreading them across “the blog” as if everyone here has the same beliefs.

    (3) You need to check a lot of your facts. Many of them are wrong. Why do I believe that you won’t change your conclusions whenever you find out the facts you were originally using to build your conclusions are incorrect?

  6. StateFans 07/13/2009 at 5:18 PM #

    Comments from Adam Gold: http://www.850thebuzz.com/blog/?p=10455

    Don’t know what to think of the following statement:

    “Through 4 years, there’s no indication that recruiting is significantly better than it was during the first four years under Herb Sendek.”

  7. ryebread 07/13/2009 at 5:22 PM #

    bradleyb123: HWSNBN was kept around too long. He should have been gone after year 5 even though he had his #1 recruiting class coming in. If we’d have been more proactive, we could have landed a better coach who would have taken advantage of that talent (and of the newly opened RBC) to achieve much more than he did. I thought it then and I think it now.

    By keeping him around, we ultimately set him (and us) up to fail. The fan base was divided and recruiting suffered. HWSNBN was on the hot seat yearly and it’s impossible to win big that way. I think that’s why he switched to the Princeton — so he could recruit system players and win just enough games not to get fired.

    HWSNBN bolted right as the train was about to fall off the track. Nothing about that class of Horner, Davis and Werner suggested that there was the talent there to continue to eek into the tournament. The recruiting class the following year was Chris Wright (verbal) or bust and Wright hasn’t exactly set the world on fire at GT (part of their decline IMHO is because he hasn’t panned out). HWSNBN got out of town before he was run out on a rail and knew it.

    Part of the heat that SL deals with now is because we kept the last coach too long. If we’ve learned anything from HWSNBN, I’d hope it was that you don’t keep a poor coach because of a recruiting class. I sure hope that we didn’t learn that if you give a man who doesn’t have “it” long enough that he’ll eventually get to mediocre results.

    For the record, I’m pulling for SL and have been from day one. I want this year’s team to gel, overachieve and make the NCAA tournament. I want SL to succeed, compete for league and tournament championships and thus ultimately be around a long time. I think he’s behind the 8 ball though and suspect that the big money donors are about to run out of patience…….

  8. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 5:24 PM #

    Statefans,

    “(1) This blog is not a living being. So, this blog cannot have these feelings that you are attaching to it.”

    I had no idea all these different user IDs represented different people. Thanks for being so condescending in explaining this to me. (I am addressing the folks that think a certain way. People that don’t think that way know I’m not talking to them.)

    “(2) This blog is made up of multiple different authors who are all encouraged to shaer their diverse points of view. Stop attaching the feelings and writings of some of the individuals and spreading them across “the blog” as if everyone here has the same beliefs.”

    If you prefer, I’ll start addressing particular people to avoid confusion, especially the type of confusion that leads one to assume that I don’t know there are multiple authors posting here. Thanks again for being condescending.

    “(3) You need to check a lot of your facts. Many of them are wrong.”

    First of all, I preface things I’m not sure about with “correct me if I’m wrong”, or “I believe”, which indicates to most that I am speaking off the cuff, and not of “facts”.

    “Why do I believe that you won’t change your conclusions whenever you find out the facts you were originally using to build your conclusions are incorrect?”

    Which conclusions have I made? I have not formed an opinion about Sid YET. I am one of the few that is keeping his options OPEN on Sid. Too many people here (it seems) have already slammed the door on Sidney. And contrary to what you might think, there are a few that would unload Sidney right now if given the chance to make the call.

    If you look back at many of my posts, all I ask is for people to just wait and see what happens this year and THEN decide what you think about him.

  9. cooldrip 07/13/2009 at 5:33 PM #

    If HWSNBN had been fired after year five, there’s a good chance Barnes would be here. Think we would be wondering if Rick Barnes was or was not a good coach? Think Favors would still be going to Tech? How about Wall and Cousins to Memphis/Kentucky? Think we would still look enviously at Roy and say “Why not us?” In other words, we’re in this position because NCSU leadership made mistakes. As has been stated several times already, hopefully we will learn from our past mistakes and do what is best for NCSU in the long run.

  10. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 5:41 PM #

    Good post, ryebread.

    For anyone here that thinks I’m some kind of Sid lover, I’m really not. There was a point during the 2008-09 season that I was ready to fire him MIDSEASON. But then I saw some things that I liked. He completely re-tooled the lineup (we went “big”) because the old lineup wasn’t working. I saw some player development in Javi, Mays and Smith. And with a pretty solid recruiting class coming in, and all the old now gone, I think it’s worth giving Sid a shot for this year, to show improvement. If we weren’t so young, I’d say we have to make the dance or let him go. I’m saving that requirement for next year. And I’m not even giving Sid a free pass for THIS year. If he does a horrible job, I’ll join everyone else in calling for his job. But simply not winning quite enough games, or not making the NCAAT is not all I’m using as benchmarks. We need to see what happens, how things go, before making up our minds.

  11. Wolfpack_1995 07/13/2009 at 5:42 PM #

    The whole thing can be broken down by “track record.”

    Look at Lowe’s coaching performance in the NBA. How anyone can convince themselves that Lowe would magically turn his game around in college is ridiculous.

    TOB is a proven winner. There is no comparison.

  12. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 5:43 PM #

    (Never mind — Ryebread’s post was from a different page)

  13. phunisher 07/13/2009 at 5:45 PM #

    bradleyb,
    I read your first post earlier today noticing that you were absolutely frustrated with the people at this site and you had decided that you would probably not ever be back to this site. Now I see that you have edited that post and have now decided to be the most feverous poster writing today with only emotion fueling your words. Why don’t you just go back to your original post and take a day or two off. I whole heartedly could agree with your intentions, but you way of going about this argument is trivial and tacky. Please just stop so we can take this article and post into another direction. And sincerely, I mean no offense

  14. BJD95 07/13/2009 at 6:06 PM #

    For the record, Sendek inherited a laughingstock program (as opposed to just a weak personnel situation for Lowe), had a much better first three seasons than Lowe – and I still wanted him fired after Season Four. There’s no way to say that I’m being harder on Lowe than I have graded in the past (I was ready to cut bait on Les in same timeframe, probably a bit earlier).

    There has to be a bottom line SOMEWHERE. When you are purely subjective, chances are you’ll always see what backs up your position going in. State was 6-10 last year. The ACC will certainly be down. So I don’t see how you can fairly call anything less than 8-8 in ACC “improvement” unless you essentially give Lowe a complete pass – which is what he and Fowler want and expect.

    Now, 8-8 in a weak ACC wouldn’t be enough for me to want Lowe back (without an NCAAT bid), but it would certainly reduce my level of agitation. I think that’s completely fair and reasonable.

    For the record, I congratulated Sendek (check the archives) when he danced in Year Six, and when he made the Sweet Sixteen. I will also give Lowe credit if and when he achieves my benchmarks. Logic and existing evidence don’t lead me to believe this is at all likely.

  15. ryebread 07/13/2009 at 6:20 PM #

    bradleyb123: Which post did you agree with and which do you disagree with? I’m not picking a fight, but am curious. I’m more than willing to discuss either one because I think both are true. Thanks. 🙂

  16. buttPACKer 07/13/2009 at 7:06 PM #

    this will be the worst year in Wolfpack history. .

  17. burnbarn 07/13/2009 at 7:15 PM #

    Oh yee of short memories.

  18. hball57 07/13/2009 at 7:17 PM #

    Bash me all you want, but I am not going to doom the season on July 13. Why should I take a “woe is me” attitude now? I always go in to a season hopeful … because if I’m not hopeful, why would I bother being a fan? So I can pick my team to fail and be right? Let’s root for football, then root for basketball and see what happens. It that really unreasonable?

  19. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 7:35 PM #

    BJD, I would consider 8-8 an improvement. The ACC may be down, but so are we. We just lost three of our starters, not to mention Fergie, and replaced them with five true freshmen.

    Herb did inherit a laughing stock. Sid kinda did, too, although not quite as bad. I’ve had many a Carolina friend poke fun at me about ole Herb over the years. Herb made us semi-respectable, I’ll give him that much. But he didn’t exactly leave Sid a powerhouse.

    Someone mentioned earlier that recruits choose the school, moreso than the coach. When Herb left, this was proven true. ONE of Herb’s recruits stayed at NC State to play for Sid. //end of sarcasm

  20. LRM 07/13/2009 at 7:36 PM #

    “If we’re having this conversation in Herb’s fourth year, you’re talking about how he needs to go, not how he elevated the program. Why not give Sid the same chance?”

    The only thing Herb ever “elevated” around here was my blood pressure.

  21. Clarksa 07/13/2009 at 7:51 PM #

    “If HWSNBN had been fired after year five, there’s a good chance Barnes would be here. Think we would be wondering if Rick Barnes was or was not a good coach?”

    This is a fun statement..not a WTNY…but more of a WCOB8YA…what could have been 8 years ago.

    “this will be the worst year in Wolfpack history. .”

    It would take a lot to top the year we had a player shoot himself in his dorm room during a game.

  22. VaWolf82 07/13/2009 at 9:08 PM #

    I always go in to a season hopeful … It that really unreasonable?

    Unreasonable…no

    You are free to ignore all available evidence and draw whatever conclusion you would like. You just shouldn’t be surprised when many others refuse to ignore relevant information.

  23. ChiefJoJo 07/13/2009 at 9:15 PM #

    Anyone suggesting that Sid will get a pass this year because of Lo Brown not making the grade is way off base. Wall (had we signed him) maybe, but Brown? No. Only the most extreme Herb apologist would even think of such a thing… at least Herb had *some* success. Sid has not sniffed the NCAAs.

    Listen, I’ve defending Sid in the past. I’ve wanted to give him every chance I could to show that he’s the right guy for the job. This is going to be the final year for him to prove it, no excuses.

  24. mafpack 07/13/2009 at 9:43 PM #

    Heard this on 99.9 the Fan earlier this afternoon from someone at WRAL talking with the Insiders. Looks like they’ve updated the main page story as well.

    “A source with knowledge of the situation told WRAL Monday afternoon that an appeal is in place with the NCAA clearinghouse.

    With the appeals process still ongoing, N.C. State officials did not want to comment on the situation at this time.”

    http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/5561915/

    Apparently he’s not gone yet, and this explains some of the stone silence from the Administration we’ve been reading into today. Also, it sounded like the report was inferring that perhaps he would have qualified to graduate in other states, just not Georgia. Which gives him grounds for an appeal to the NCAA ClearingHouse, and possibly still make admission this coming year. Not holding my breath, but we shall see.

    PS – I chuckled to myself when Scott Jackson from the Insiders referenced ‘Several sites reporting this story, including Rivals and StateFansNation’ – looks like you’ve made it to the big show boys (as if you didn’t already realize that).

  25. Gene 07/13/2009 at 10:58 PM #

    Just throwing in a football analogy, which maybe germane: Andre Brown went to Hargrave for a year after high school for academic reasons and he wasn’t the worse for it. From what I gather Andre Brown had pretty good grades, while at NCSU and got drafted in the NFL draft.

    Hopefully this isn’t the end of the world for Lorenzo Brown.

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