Lorenzo Brown – Another One Bites the Dust

I apologize for not being more timely – I’ve been on vacation and out of the loop. But yes, what you may have heard is indeed true – Lorenzo Brown is headed to prep school and will not suit up for the 2009-10 Wolfpack squad. No matter how down the ACC may be, this is almost certainly a fatal blow for NC State’s already remote chance to contend for first division status.

Long-time readers will note that SFN commenter Noah has been hinting about possible issues with Brown ever since he committed to the Pack. Although we (and you) may fervently hope Noah is wrong, perhaps it’s time to stop expecting him to be so.

The obvious question now is “what happens next?” We can break that down into two parts – what should happen, and what to expect from the Lowe camp and his enablers.

On the should side of the ledger, nothing changes in the bar set, just the math regarding the likelihood of clearing it. Again, the fundamental key is distinguishing between fault and responsibility. While it is not Lowe’s fault that Lorenzo Brown’s grades fell short of what Georgia requires, in Season #4 the state of the program is Lowe’s absolute and unequivocal responsibility. The product on the floor must be something that NC State can be proud of. No excuses. Giving Lowe “credit” for recruiting rankings while giving him a pass when said recruits fail to qualify is the height of idiocy. But if you focus on bottom-line responsibility, it doesn’t matter. You can produce by bringing in great talent (ala Guy Lewis), or you can overachieve with lesser talent (ala Seth Greenberg). Either way, you have to produce. Lowe is not likely to produce with the current roster, but that’s on him. He is the coach and the general manager.

So, back to prong two. What should you expect? Well, for Team Lowe and its dwindling band of true believers, this is actually perfect. It gives you the perfect opportunity to intensify the pre-emptive excuse making. WTNY!!!!! Since almost every pundit will now expect State to finish 11th or 12th, they can (and will) shift the focus to beat “expectations” – despite the fact that expectations are so low because of the personnel Lowe has brought in and Lowe’s demonstrated coaching “acumen.” A career-best 9th place finish after four years gets you a pink slip from 95% of major D-1 programs, but the dead-enders would demand a contract extension instead. And since it isn’t possible to perform below expectations (i.e., you can’t fall off the floor), they will deem anyone not satisfied with 2009-10 results as delusional. Expect Fowler (if he’s still here) to break out the “lunatic fringe” term again.

More importantly, the status quo folks get to double down on blackmail. Lorenzo Brown and Ryan Harrow are both from the same recruiting pipeline, and will thus have access to the same set of talking points (that Harrow has already been testing out over the summer). Expect this to get a lot less subtle, and a lot more public – certainly no later than January 2010 (fun idea – run a pool for the date of the next public article with a qualifying Brown or Harrow quote). With Lowe’s tacit or explicit approval, these young men will declare that they are committed to Sidney Lowe, not NC State. This is certainly true of a certain individual deeply intertwined with their recruitment. And since recruits have not taken the court in a college game (and thus only have untapped potential for greatness, and no weaknesses in the eyes of many), some people will take this as a legitimate consideration. This is true despite what happened the last time NC State faced such a situation, which led to five years of basketball limbo – and that was with the best player in school history since the legendary David Thompson, not two Top 50 kids.

Feel free to shoot the messenger in the comments – but that’s simply how I see things shaking out. Things are ugly in West Raleigh, and about to get much, much uglier. Brace yourselves for the coming storm.

Projected 2009-2010 NC State Basketball Roster

Senior Class
(1) Dennis Horner (F)
(2) Farnold Degand (PG)

Junior Class
(3) Javi Gonzalez (PG)
(4) Tracy Smith (4F)

Sophomore Class
(5) Johnny Thomas (Wing)
(6) Julius Mays (PG/SG)
(7) CJ Williams (Wing)

Freshman Class
(8) Scott Wood (Wing)
(9) DeShawn Painter (PF/C)
(10) Richard Howell (PF)
(11) Josh Davis (WF)
(12) Jordan Vandenberg (C)

2010 Commits
(13) Lorenzo Brown (PG/SG)
(1) Departure of Dennis Horner – Ryan Harrow (PG)
(2) Departure of Farnold Degand – Previously CJ Leslie (PF/C)

2011 Commits
(3) Departure of Javi Gonzalez
(4) Departure of Tracy Smith

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

09-10 Basketball Basketball Recruiting

159 Responses to Lorenzo Brown – Another One Bites the Dust

  1. Clarksa 07/13/2009 at 1:56 PM #

    Good drama…I have grown to love the implosion moments in NC State athletics history…or “epic reactions” as 850thebuzz called it.

    I am going to continue to believe that we will play better basketball and finish at least 6th in the league. I’m not studying past history or the roster, that’s just what I happen to believe.

    Oh, and a little friendly advice to bradleyb123, give it up, you won’t win that argument here.

  2. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 2:15 PM #

    ^ “This thread is not intended as “blaming” Lowe for Brown not qualifying (that’s your strawman, fault-based argument) – it is a pre-emptive strike against (i) writing off Lowe’s fourth season because of “bad luck”; and (ii) letting NC State be held hostage over two Top 50 recruits.”

    How did I EVER get the idea that some people here have an anti-Sid agenda?

    Your blog appears to blame Sid for the kid not passing muster. But someone posted a response to my comment explicitly blaming Sid for that. And then someone else called me out for pointing out that some people (SOME) have an anti-Sid agenda. Maybe making the NCAAT will satisfy you, but I think there are some that will never be happy with Sid until and unless he does some incredible things. Those people aren’t happy with reasonable improvement by the program.

    When I was talking about Sid and his recruiting prowess, my point was that is his job RIGHT NOW, as in between actual games. When he’s not coaching, he’s recruiting. And during this recruiting period of his job, he did a good job of that. Of course stars mean nothing if he can’t win some games with them. I’m not standing by Sid if he can’t produce either this year or next. But if he doesn’t produce THIS year, I will at least be happy *IF* there is progress made. We can’t realistically EXPECT great things from a team full of freshmen. But we can expect progress and building on the part of the players. If we don’t see that, then Sid needs to go THIS year. But we should at least wait and see what he does before pulling the plug on him, as some want to do right now.

    Someone tells me to “get over myself” for having a very valid opinion that (1) Sid should not be blamed for this kid not clearing the NCAA, and (2) If he is to be blamed, then so is TOB for his kids that didn’t make it. Sorry, but that seems pretty straightforward to me.

    And it’s not a strawman argument. Alpha blamed Sid for recruiting this type of kid (as if Sid should have known Lo wouldn’t be able to make it this year). So I responded to that.

  3. Noah 07/13/2009 at 2:44 PM #

    Someone tells me to “get over myself” for having a very valid opinion that (1) Sid should not be blamed for this kid not clearing the NCAA, and (2) If he is to be blamed, then so is TOB for his kids that didn’t make it. Sorry, but that seems pretty straightforward to me.

    Just so we are clear, *I* do not blame Lowe for Lorenzo Brown’s problems. I blame Lowe for putting the program in a position where we have to wait for saviors to show up in order for their to be any realistic hope for the future (I’m not counting the pie-in-the-sky dreams that some have for making the tournament this year).

    A couple of years ago, the consensus seemed to be that Lowe’s future would come down to whether or not he got John Wall and Lorenzo Brown. Well…we didn’t get either one.

    So now what?

  4. choppack1 07/13/2009 at 2:48 PM #

    bradleyb – Blame has nothing to do about it – it’s about results.

    And when evaluating a coach, you shouldn’t say, “How is my friend doing” or “How is my childhood hero doing” or “How is that PG who led us to a national championship doing”?

    You need to ask – is this coach meeting the expectations and if not, what does he need to do to make NC State fans feel confident about the future.

    I believe that if we can somehow get to 7-9, he’ll definitely have another year at the helm unless there are some “non-basketball” issues that arrive.

    This latest problem highlights a concern many of us have about Sidney…that he struggles w/ the personell part of coaching.

    It may ultimately come down to this – if Sid goes 5-11 in conference this year and we miss out on the NIT (for the 3rd consecutive year) – will those in Sidney’s corner say, “You can’t really judge him because we didn’t have Lo Brown, who was so critical to our success.”

    Just keep on asking the question “why” – (why isn’t Lo here, why didn’t he qualify, why didn’t pass that class)…but at the end of every question ask the question: What are/were our options to avoid this?

    You’ll come to see that Sid indeed did have some control over this – and that much like Sendek learned – you don’t want to put you eggs in one basket, especially if the basket has a whole in it.

  5. cooldrip 07/13/2009 at 2:49 PM #

    In terms of recruiting, why do so many of the enablers think we have no chance with Brown/Harrow if Lowe is fired? Do top players really base their decision to play at NCSU on Coach Lowe? I think as far as the top kids go, they look at NCSU’s advantages: ACC program, tons of televised games, national exposure when playing highly-ranked rivals, the chance to play immediately, great arena, very large and VERY passionate fanbase, etc. Then they consider our lack of recent success and mediocre coaching, and we lose out.

    With the Georgia kids, the advice they get from former associates of Sid seems to ease any concerns over coaching they might have. Hey, if a former NBA guy tells you Sid can coach, how many 17 year olds will doubt him? To me, it’s the only explanation why the majority of our high-level recruits over the last three years are from Ga. This doesn’t really indicate a great recruiting performance on Lowe’s part; he’s just got an “in”. Guys like Coach K or Roy don’t need an “in”.

    Why couldn’t a top coach keep Brown and Harrow committed? Are you telling me the only reason they’re coming is Lowe? If that’s true, I don’t really want them anyway. I imagine if Lowe were replaced by someone with serious credentials we would have a good chance with both Brown and Harrow. And if not, well a top coach seems to find the players he needs to be successful. We have alot to offer top recruits; a top-level coach to me would seal the deal.

    And on ACC quality guards since Fire&Ice: Atsur, Harrison, McCuller, Grundy …several more, but memory fails me. It’s really just in the last two years that we’ve seen truly horrible guard play. And we might have been able to fix that with recruiting, but failed. Recruiting is more than just rankings; far more important is to fill areas of need and balance the roster. In this sense, the last three years of recruiting have been mediocre at best, and a near disaster in terms of the backcourt.

  6. BJD95 07/13/2009 at 2:55 PM #

    Sounds like cooldrip has the “in” figured out, and likely with the correct name attached.

  7. VaWolf82 07/13/2009 at 2:58 PM #

    but I don’t have confidence that the line in the sand has been drawn.

    By whom? I know that you are not depending on LF to define performance standards.

  8. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 2:59 PM #

    ^ “I blame Lowe for putting the program in a position where we have to wait for saviors to show up in order for their to be any realistic hope for the future”

    I see what you’re saying, but we’re also up against about 25 years of mediocrity. At some point, there has to be a savior that shows up. I don’t blame Sid for us being in that position. We’ve been in that position since well before he arrived. At least he’s pulling in some good savior candidates now, and has his foot in the door with others.

    “A couple of years ago, the consensus seemed to be that Lowe’s future would come down to whether or not he got John Wall and Lorenzo Brown. Well…we didn’t get either one.”

    Well, there’s still 2010 for Lo Brown (hopefully). I believe he still wants to come here next year.

    “So now what?”

    I guess we play the games and see. And evaluate Sidney’s performance as we go along. I’m nervous that he’s a good recruiter but a horrible coach, too. I don’t know what he was thinking with the crazy substitution patterns last year. I hope he has learned from it.

    If I don’t see SOME improvement this year, I’ll be as vocal about anyone about getting rid of Sidney. But I’m willing to give him his chance. I don’t require an NCAAT berth this year, but only because of the youth and inexperience on this team. But that’s not to say we can just stink it up royally. Sidney doesn’t get that kind of pass from me. And next year, if we’re not in the NCAAT, I’ll be calling for his job, too. I think we should just see what kind of job Sidney does THIS year before we pass judgment.

  9. wolf2003 07/13/2009 at 3:01 PM #

    Cooldrip they do consider the coach. Per interview with Highschoolhoops.com

    HSH: Is that the main reason you picked State?
    RH: Well, it was that and because I really like (head) coach (Sidney) Lowe. That’s the main reason.

    HSH: That’s interesting because Lowe is somewhat on the proverbial hot seat. The rumors are always there.
    RH: Yeah I know. I’ve heard the rumors about him possibly getting fired and everything like that. I mean if he’s there, I’m there, but if not I’ll probably look elsewhere. But I’m thinking with the class that they’re bringing in and my class coming after that it will be the players that State has been looking for. How could they let him go with those players? You know.

    Full interview can be seen here: http://www.highschoolhoop.com/recruiting-news/2009/06/2k-sports-preseason-all-american-team-ryan-harrow/

  10. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 3:06 PM #

    ^ “You need to ask – is this coach meeting the expectations and if not, what does he need to do to make NC State fans feel confident about the future.”

    If Sid had a terrible recruiting class again this year, I’d want him gone right now. His performance as a coach has been subpar, although I’m not sure that was all on him, but on the players he was left with. I won’t continually make excuses for him. I’m just happy with these recruits and want to see what he can do with them for at least a year, MAYBE two. And then decide.

    I’m only giving Sid ONE more year of mediocrity, and ONLY because of the youth & inexperience on this team. I HOPE for better this year, but don’t EXPECT it. This is Sid’s last pass, and it’s not a FREE pass. He needs to show he can coach, and the team needs to show growth as the season goes on. If we do that, I’ll feel better about Sid, even if we’re not dancing in March. But no matter what happens, we BETTER be dancing at the end of the 2010-2011 season at the latest.

  11. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 3:11 PM #

    ^ “In terms of recruiting, why do so many of the enablers think we have no chance with Brown/Harrow if Lowe is fired? Do top players really base their decision to play at NCSU on Coach Lowe? I think as far as the top kids go, they look at NCSU’s advantages”

    I think some players do, but the VERY BEST players consider the coach AND the school. One thing I like about Sid is the kinds of things we hear the recruits saying about him. They love Sid, and they believe in his system when they commit to him and the school. These players can get us to the promised land.

    I believe if we let Sid go, we’d immediately lose recruits and it would hurt us for a couple more years, depending on who we got to replace Sid. I know State’s history, and we don’t exactly offer the big bucks for proven coaches. So expect a few more bad years if we let Sid go.

    I just say, let’s reserve judgment until we see what Sid DOES this year. What if we see some great improvement late in the year, and some good coaching, but just not quite enough wins to make the dance. Would you really want to throw the baby out with the bathwater based on not being in the tournament? Especially considering the good start Sid already has on 2010 recruiting?

  12. Noah 07/13/2009 at 3:27 PM #

    One thing I like about Sid is the kinds of things we hear the recruits saying about him. They love Sid, and they believe in his system when they commit to him and the school. These players can get us to the promised land.

    The kids he’s getting from Georgia don’t “love sid” or “believe in his system.”

  13. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 3:28 PM #

    They don’t? Why do you say that?

  14. MatSci94 07/13/2009 at 3:32 PM #

    “How many pre-emptive strikes do we need before the target is obliterated?”

    Is the target still there? 😉

    So the disagreement seems to be ‘have we seen enough to fairly judge Sid, or do we need another year to decide’. Some people have decided that we know enough right now, and some are not yet convinced. I’m fine with the opinions. Why can’t those who point to evidence of coaching, playing time, X&O questions, defensive schemes say ‘I don’t think he has it’ without being labeled? I don’t really follow recruiting specifics, but if the only answer to ‘not so good coach’ is ‘great recruiting class’… and then parts of the class don’t show up, where does that leave you?

    One question on the specifics of L. Brown. Is he still bound by a LOI, or does his not qualifying leave him open to go anywhere next year?

  15. BJD95 07/13/2009 at 3:33 PM #

    ^^ The answer is in cooldrip’s post above. I also alluded to it in the main post. Just make a few logical deductions, and there you have it.

    The HSH article is primarily what I was referring to you about Harrow’s trial balloon of the “blackmail strategy.”

  16. BJD95 07/13/2009 at 3:37 PM #

    VaWolf – of course, I’m not counting on Fowler to define the performance standard. Lowe could lose every game this season and take a televised dump at midcourt, and Fowler would still say he’s the right man for the job.

    I also believe that the heavy hitters are on the side of the angels here. Time’s up after this year. But Fowler is still here. And the leadership shakeup does possibly shuffle the calculus a bit. It’s important to keep the pressure on and the urgency in the forefront.

  17. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 3:47 PM #

    ^ “Why can’t those who point to evidence of coaching, playing time, X&O questions, defensive schemes say ‘I don’t think he has it’ without being labeled?”

    I don’t see many people saying that. I actually can’t argue with that because it’s an opinion. I can give you some examples of things I think indicate that he does have it, but we all make the decision for ourselves.

    I believe too many on here more complain about not enough wins, or not making the tournament, and that’s where I have to chime in. There can be other reasons for all that besides poor coaching. There is also the viewpoint that when we hired him, we KNEW he would be getting on-the-job training since he had no college coaching experience. So I chime in there and say let’s at least give him a chance to show he has learned.

    There are other benchmarks, like player development (we’ve seen that in Javi, Mays and Smith). Sid also changed up the rotation when the old rotation wasn’t working. He showed he was flexible in that regard, and early on I don’t think that was the case with Sid.

    Recruiting hasn’t been there in big numbers until now. Now he has a chance to possibly pull it all together, including recruiting. This year will be very telling about Sidney. I think he has a chance to prove a lot of people wrong. I just wish the season would get here so we could see. Oh wait, football first!

  18. Thinkpack17 07/13/2009 at 4:11 PM #

    “The kids he’s getting from Georgia don’t “love sid” or “believe in his system.”

    I think we need some elaboration on this one. Did you mean to say except Ryan Harrow at the end of that?

  19. Wulfpack 07/13/2009 at 4:18 PM #

    “I see what you’re saying, but we’re also up against about 25 years of mediocrity.”

    No, believe it or not, we were exactly decent, as in top half of the conference and NCAA bubble material, before Sid arrived. Ever since Sid landed in Raleigh, it’s been one screw up after another and nothing but bottom feeder conference finishes. I guess we shouln’t be surprised, considering the AD ran an incompetent coaching search that landed us a career NBA assistant who happened to put together one of the worst win/loss records of all-time as a head man. We hired a coach who had never coached a college game. I guess we’re paying for that experiment right now.

    Look, I like Sid as a person much as the next guy. I do wish he could find a way to successfully connect the past with the present. But it ain’t happenin’.

    Win or go home. No more excuses.

  20. Par Shooter 07/13/2009 at 4:20 PM #

    Sorry bradley but I’ve got to take issue with the following premise:

    “When he’s not coaching, he’s recruiting. And during this recruiting period of his job, he did a good job of that.”

    First off, he should be doing a helluva lot more than just recruiting during the offseason. He should be ensuring that guys are working hard during the offseason and preparing themselves for the upcoming season. I know this has been a weakness in the past and I don’t know how well he has beefed this up. It wouldn’t hurt if he actually set a good example here, but I digress. I only point this out because I think Sid used to feel (and maybe still does) that his only responsibility during the offseason WAS recruiting and he’s flat out wrong.

    But aside from that, I would say that it’s very debatable as to whether he has done a good job in recruiting since the season ended. One of his biggest weaknesses has been allocating scholarships to guys who can contribute to the program, aka, scholarship management. And on this front I would contend that the post-season has been an unmitigated disaster. That was pretty much cemented the day he offered Josh Davis a scholarship and furthered when he took another flyer on the big aussie. Even Painter is now being described as a semi-project by folks who seem to follow this stuff. These guys may all turn out to be fine players but to use 3 schollies in that way is very, very questionable. The only real explanation is that Sid is desparate and just hoping that lightening will strike in some under the radar kid.

  21. Thinkpack17 07/13/2009 at 4:32 PM #

    “And on this front I would contend that the post-season has been an unmitigated disaster. That was pretty much cemented the day he offered Josh Davis a scholarship and furthered when he took another flyer on the big aussie. Even Painter is now being described as a semi-project by folks who seem to follow this stuff.”

    The only thing that makes sense in this entire segment is the Josh Davis stuff. I agree I would love to have that scholly back to give to Parker. But if you have a chance to get a 7 footer when you are short on big men, you take the 7 footer. Is there a 7 foot 19 year old in the history of basketball who didn’t start off as a “project”? If you think the offer to Painter was questionable you can just look at the schools we beat out to get him. You may think Sid is a moron, but Gary Williams and Billy Donovan are proven guys who saw something in Painter.

  22. whitefang 07/13/2009 at 4:33 PM #

    Bradley,
    With all due respect I have to disagree with many of your points:

    “I believe too many on here more complain about not enough wins, or not making the tournament, and that’s where I have to chime in. There can be other reasons for all that besides poor coaching.” – the head coach has to ultimately take responsibility with this. Winning is the name of the game. SL will have had 4 years after this one. ANYWHERE else without a good year, he would be gone. We have been more than patient. When fans stop complaining about losses and not making the tourney, then you don’t have any fans.

    “There are other benchmarks, like player development.” – maybe I’m watching the wrong games, but I would have to give SL low marks on player development.

    “Sid also changed up the rotation when the old rotation wasn’t working.” – new rotation didn’t work either.

    “Recruiting hasn’t been there in big numbers until now.” – well not quite true. This class was rated in the mid-teens BEFORE Brown was lost. Four other ACC teams had higher ranked classes. SL’s 2007 class was rated similarly to this one.

    “This year will be very telling about Sidney. I think he has a chance to prove a lot of people wrong.” – personally I think the last 2 years were pretty telling, but I agree this year we WILL know no matter the smoke that comes from the admin. I have to say though I think that while he has a chance to prove a lot of people wrong, it is a slim chance.

  23. bradleyb123 07/13/2009 at 4:41 PM #

    Wulfpack, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think we were even close to being regular finishers in the top half of the ACC under Herb. He had a high finish or two, but nothing consistent. Herb beefed up our win totals by playing creampuffs. He worked the system, and won JUST ENOUGH to squeak us into the dance. I think four out of the five years we were on the bubble. All Herb did was “just enough” to make it nearly impossible to replace him. But make no mistake. We WERE mediocre under Herb, give or take a couple of good moments. Just ask a Carolina or Duke fan what they think about Herb. He was a joke. We were never a consistent threat under Herb. That stupid Princeton offense is going to beat a lot of average teams, but not the very good teams. That’s why we were doomed to lose in the first or second round of the dance every year.

    But since we’re on the subject of Herb, how bad were we in his first FIVE years? How many NCAA tournaments did he get us into in that period? if you’re happy with Herb, then you must be willing to give Sid another couple of years, so we can compare apples to apples, right? You say “win or go home”, but Herb didn’t win in his first 5-6 years, but he didn’t go home at that time. And now you’re using him as the measuring stick for Sidney? You can’t really have it both ways, can you? If Sid is bad for not winning, then Herb was bad for not winning, too.

    I’m not really arguing that Sid is a great coach, or even a good one. But why don’t we just see what happens this year before we make that final decision on him? Let’s just give him a chance. But be willing to judge him on what he does, not just X number of wins or an NCAAT berth. Coach K or Roy Williams may not even be able to get to the NCAAT with this young group. We need to judge Sid on how he does, just this year. Next year, I’m with you. Win or go home.

  24. Wulfpack 07/13/2009 at 4:50 PM #

    bradleyb123, the great Herb debates are well chronicled on this blog and you can go back and read the history. And yes, I was a supporter. But my premise goes something like Sid inherited an entirely different situation than Herb did. Les Robinson did nothing to improve NC State basketball. We were kings of the play-in game, kind of like where we are now. Herb at least elevated the program to respectability over the years, and yes we finished in the top half of the league four times. Last five years of his reign we were T-3rd, 4th, 2nd, T-6th and 4th. Furthermore, there was only one year where we did not qualify for either the NCAA Tourney or NIT — we’ve been left out of ANY tournament 2 years running with Sid. Not outstanding, no, but a whole HELL of a lot better than where we are now.

  25. Thinkpack17 07/13/2009 at 4:50 PM #

    “Wulfpack, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think we were even close to being regular finishers in the top half of the ACC under Herb.”

    No, after Herb got rolling he finished in the top half of the standings around a handful of times. I think we were like 2nd or 3rd once.

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