From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

Long-time commenter (and very gracious guest in Wolfpack Blogistan) nycfan gave a very detailed assessment of our basketball program under the “stewardship” of Fowler and Lowe. Many times, a knowledgeable outsider can give a more honest, objective assessment – since emotion doesn’t get in the way. I just wanted to highlight this comment for the community, and don’t believe it needs more commentary from me. Have a good weekend, everyone!

At this point, even as an outsider I think I can say without offending anyone that State’s hoops program is not among the elite and hasn’t been since about 1990. So is it aspiring to be elite? I can only assume that deep down, that is what Lowe aspires to, but the public statements sure don’t sound like it.

I know coaches always have to engage in managing expectations just for self-preservation, but what I hear from Lowe and Fowler seems more expansive than that — it sounds like rationalization why Lowe failed to motivate or develop the left-over guys, as though it is not fair to expect Lowe to connect with or develop inherited players (or that no one else has ever won with some one else’s players). This argument rings hollow in particular regarding Costner/Fells/Ferguson/McCauley to me because they played most of their careers for Lowe.

OK, I can accept that upperclassmen left by a prior regime might harbor resentments and never buy what the new guy is selling. I also know that some coaches have no qualms about throwing those upperclassmen overboard (K after his first season at dook, Mack Brown at UNC), taking early lumps in order to build something with “their guys” from the outset. But we’re talking about guys who were freshmen and sophomores when Lowe arrived, who had played limited playing time and who expressed a lot of optimism about basketball being fun again. And yet we are told (or left to infer) that Lowe had no obligation to develop these guys (or cut bait) and expectations to the contrary are too demanding. Lowe can only be expected to develop guys he personally recruited (but we also can’t count his early recruiting classes against him, so no data on player development counts yet either).

I dunno. I’m not a State fan but I personally think the ACC is more fun and healthier when State is a relevant team. And I can’t believe you guys are basically being told, sorry, those first three years didn’t count, we were just learning on the job and you know, killing time until we could purge the system and START building in YEAR 4. And, oh, by the way, the goal of three years of wheel-spinning and a 4th year reboot is to finish in the top half of the conference and make the NCAAT. Really?? Seriously??

OTOH, I’m no seer. Maybe this is somthing that could work. After all, didn’t that guy I’m not supposed to name work on that same time-line (though Year 5 was a bit of an OOOPS! and then those top half ACC/NCAAT seasons came rolling in without much hope of challenging for a championship locally or nationally, maybe, but you consistently got to be involved in the first weekend of the NCAAT for 5 years).

But from my outsider’s POV, I have thought Lowe is awfully prone to excuses and rationalizations in his first three seasons and it seems to me that nothing has yet changed. He is basically starting this season by saying “you know all those guys who just graduated or left, well they all sucked, so what the heck was I supposed to do? change the culture? make them better? that’s not my job, my job is to coach guys I want to coach and now I just need you to back off and give me time to coach them.” It rubs me the wrong way as an ACC/college hoops fan; it would piss me off if one of those players were my kid or if I were emotionally invested in NC State’s success.

I absolutely HATED that same kind of thing from John Bunting — I never doubted the man’s love for UNC or his overall integrity, but he engaged in endless rationalizations and blame games and I always disliked him as a coach because of it. (Losing consistently just made it that much more demoralizing to have him around.)

It’s not often that fans are asked to WTNY the summer before THIS year begins. And heaven help Ryan Harrow for all the hopes, dreams and expectations being heaped on him as a freshman PG in year 5. I always felt sorry for Ishua Benjamin b/c I thought he was a great kid who got chewed up by those kind of expectations/desperate desire for a savior at State.

Sorry for rant. I try not to be too negative (and comparing anyone to John Bunting in my book is a serious negative) as a guest on other fan sites, but there is my unvarnished POV.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

67 Responses to From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

  1. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 1:28 PM #

    Wolfman, I don’t get you. If we had the same players again, I wouldn’t be looking forward much to basketball, either. But we lost 4-5 players and replaced them with six new guys, including a seven footer, for a class that is ranked as high as 11th. We won’t even recognize our team next year. We certainly have something to get excited about, whether or not you want to admit that. And in 2010, when Harrow arrives, oh what’s the point. Too many deaf ears around here that just want to make Sid’s job as tough as possible.

  2. VaWolf82 06/23/2009 at 1:34 PM #

    But my question to you is, what exactly is it about NC State’s track record that makes you think it WOULDN’T happen to US?

    Valvano after Sloan and Sendek after Robinson. Neither transition took 4+ years to improve on the previous coach’s record.

  3. NCSU4ever 06/23/2009 at 2:17 PM #

    WolfPacker95
    “Sweet 16 within 3 years”

    I agree completely, I told a friend of mine the same thing a few weeks ago.
    I really beleive Lowe can keep the recruiting train going, once we can put together a winning season or two those top ten recruits who have been passing us up will be on board. I still dont beleive Lowe is a good motivator or player manager but he can recruit and sometimes that is enough.

  4. NCSU4ever 06/23/2009 at 2:26 PM #

    BradleyB

    I haven’t been this excited about basketball since the ACC tourney run in ’06. This squad will play nothing like what we saw last year, wer’e gaining a two guard that can penetrate in Brown, and an athletic post that boards and plays D in Painter, those were two big pieces to the puzzle we lacked last year. Add in Harrow as the floor general next year and we will have a sqaud that can compete with anyone.

    I dont expect to us passing the ball around the arc then jacking up a three like we did all season last year.

  5. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 2:58 PM #

    ^ “Valvano after Sloan and Sendek after Robinson. Neither transition took 4+ years to improve on the previous coach’s record.”

    You’re joking, right? Valvano I will give you. After Valvano, we went with Les Robinson. Horrible. ANY coach would have been an improvement on Les. But the thing is, I wasn’t even talking about the next coach being an improvement on a previous coach. I said a new coach would mean 3-4 more bad years, PERIOD. Les Robinson’s entire TENURE was bad. Herb should have been fired long before he made it to the dance, and I believe he didn’t do that until his 7th year, so with Herb it was six bad years. With Sid, he’s only had three years here, but it has not been a pretty three years with him, either.

    So again I ask, what makes you think a new coach would not leave State with another 3-4 years of bad basketball? Because Valvano did it? Good luck finding ANOTHER unproven coach that pans out like V did. We got flat lucky with that one.

    At least with Sid, recruiting is beginning to roll for us nicely. There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to let Sid go at this point. None. Not unless we deviate from our track record and pay the BIG BUCKS for the next Roy Williams or Coach K. That’s the only way a new coach wouldn’t spell 3-4 more bad years of basketball for us. And there’s no reason to think we would pay the big bucks like that. We never have.

  6. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 3:07 PM #

    ^ “I haven’t been this excited about basketball since the ACC tourney run in ‘06.”

    Same here, NCSU4ever! I really think Sid and co. are going to be a nice surprise THIS year, and especially NEXT year with the addition of Harrow. That’s why I wish everyone would stop talking about how horrible Sidney is. What’s the point? He isn’t going anywhere until AFTER the 2009-10 season. So why not just sit tight and SEE WHAT WE GOT before passing judgment. Sid may never be a Dean Smith or a Coach K, but people need to remember that those two guys were not very popular at their schools after their third season, either. Their fans wanted them gone, too.

    We have great recruits. Let’s see what Sid does THIS YEAR, and then make up our minds. I swear I think people here WANT Sid to fail. We could make it to the Final Four this year, and there would be bloggers on here saying Sid got lucky and needs to go.

  7. VaWolf82 06/23/2009 at 3:25 PM #

    Valvano I will give you….I said a new coach would mean 3-4 more bad years, PERIOD.

    It’s not much use in discussing an issue with someone who contradicts themselves. Since Valvano is hardly the only coach to take over a program and improve it immediately, you can’t dismiss the fact that it happened at State as pure luck.

    You want Sid to have at least two more years. That is not a completely unreasonable position, but several of the things that you post over and over again do ABSOLUTELY nothing to support your position. For instance:

    – Programs don’t HAVE to take 3-4 years to recover from a coaching change. You admit this one minute and then return to it two sentences later. You are turning a possibility or speculation into an absolute fact and it simply doesn’t work that way.

    – There is absolutely no one posting that Sid should be fired now….yet you post stuff like this over and over again:
    Let’s see what Sid does THIS YEAR

    – You attempt to absolve Sid of any blame for last year’s results by putting all of the blame on the three key departing players. Yet these are the players that Sidney played for the majority of the minutes last year. So they either weren’t the problem or Sidney doesn’t have enough sense to sit players that are causing problems. Either way, your line of argument doesn’t support Sid.

  8. Thinkpack17 06/23/2009 at 3:37 PM #

    “There is absolutely no one posting that Sid should be fired now.”

    People were not only saying that Sid should be fired now, they were saying that he was going to be fired now. A few months ago I was hearing, on this website, that both Sidney Lowe and Lee were all but out the door. I read another poster that said they were a bit upset at Sidney’s haul this year because it may buy him another year.

    We even had a brainstorming session on who we could get to replace him…I remember this because even though I support Lowe I gave a +1 for the mention of Mike Anderson.

  9. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 3:48 PM #

    ^ “It’s not much use in discussing an issue with someone who contradicts themselves. Since Valvano is hardly the only coach to take over a program and improve it immediately, you can’t dismiss the fact that it happened at State as pure luck.”

    I didn’t contradict anything. I’m talking about OUR program. And other than Valvano, who we got darn lucky with (because he was unproven when he came to State, and he proved himself here), who else has done that? Who else has come in to NC State, unproven, and proven themselves? If we were willing to pay the big bucks for a proven coach, then perhaps replacing Sidney wouldn’t be out of the question. But we have shown time and again that we aren’t the school that goes hunting for big name coaches. We just don’t do it. And before you throw TOB’s name into the discussion, he chose us. And if we had to pay him what he’s worth, I suspect we would walk.

  10. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 3:51 PM #

    ^ “You want Sid to have at least two more years. That is not a completely unreasonable position, but several of the things that you post over and over again do ABSOLUTELY nothing to support your position”

    My position is that to fire Sidney, and replace him the way we normally replace basketball coaches, is ludicrous. And that is based PURELY on the fact that Sidney MAY just have the ball rolling now with this very nice recruiting class. A year ago, I may have been more open to replacing him. Not now. Not with what we have on the table now. It would be SENSELESS to replace Sidney at this point in time.

  11. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 3:54 PM #

    And you still haven’t answered my very simple question. If we were to replace Sidney, what part of our history makes you think we wouldn’t suffer through 3-4 more years of bad basketball?

    First of all, recruits would likely transfer. Harrow may very well not be here next year. Recruiting would be in shambles (unless we bring in a name coach, but like I said, when have we EVER done that?)

    Whoever comes here (knowing how we bring in up-and-comers and hope for the best) may be the next V. Or he may be the next Les Robinson. We just don’t know. My ONLY point is WHY GAMBLE on that, when we can wait ONE YEAR (JUST ONE YEAR!) and see what Sidney can do with these recruits.

    It would be senseless to risk that. There’s no other word for it.

  12. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 3:59 PM #

    ^ “You attempt to absolve Sid of any blame for last year’s results by putting all of the blame on the three key departing players. Yet these are the players that Sidney played for the majority of the minutes last year. So they either weren’t the problem or Sidney doesn’t have enough sense to sit players that are causing problems.”

    Who was he supposed to play?

    I’m not completely absolving Sidney of anything. I’m not happy with his first three years, either. But I saw some areas where I think Sid has improved. And it took a while, but he CERTAINLY improved recruiting. I’m not looking back at what he did wrong. I’m looking forward at what he’s doing right. Did we not want him to learn on the job when we hired him, KNOWING he didn’t have college coaching experience? I contend that he has learned some things, and he SURE has some great recruits. And he’s got his foot in the door with the BEST recruits.

    Funny you mentioned that about Sidney sitting players that are causing problems. Maybe that’s just what he was doing and we questioned his “strange” substitution patterns. He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

    Look forward. We have (potentially) great players now. Why sink the ship when you don’t know for certain if it’s sinking?

  13. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 4:01 PM #

    ^ “I read another poster that said they were a bit upset at Sidney’s haul this year because it may buy him another year.”

    This is one of the points I keep making. I think some on here WANT Sidney to fail, which makes no sense to me. I think they want to punish him for not doing so well in years 1-3, so he cannot atone for sins of the past.

    Like I said earlier, Sid could get us to the Final Four, and some people would say he got lucky and still needs to go. Or they would be mad because that might earn him a contract extension.

    Some of us need to ask ourselves… what is it exactly that we want?

  14. packplantpath 06/23/2009 at 4:36 PM #

    Pulling predictions out my butt:

    In 12 months, bradleyb123 will still be making excuses for why Sidney CLEARLY needs just ONE MORE YEAR! Can’t you guys just see that he recruited jesus himself to play PG and that 7 footer nobody has ever heard of is really gonna light up the 2012 season!!!!!!ZOMG!!!!!!

    Bradley, by god, I hope your optimism is warranted. I just don’t have your faith.

  15. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 4:55 PM #

    ^ “Bradley, by god, I hope your optimism is warranted. I just don’t have your faith.”

    Actually, I think you mistake my pessimism for optimism. I don’t know what will happen this year. What I am pessimistic about is if we were to change coaches RIGHT NOW, as some on here would like, we would DEFINITELY be set back 3-4 years. Without a doubt. But if we keep Sid, and these recruits, we MIGHT have what we want — a good, and improving, basketball team.

    For the record, I never said “wait until next year!” about Sid until THIS YEAR. Good gawd, man. We have the 11th ranked recruiting class in the nation. It could have been MUCH worse!

    I have HOPE, not optimism. Optimism would be thinking we WILL win. I think we CAN win. I have no idea if we will.

    And I was also calling for Sidney’s job not too far into the 2008-09 season. But he showed a willingness to change something when it wasn’t working. I also realized we had some player development. Javi has come along, even if he’s not an all star yet. Tracy Smith needs to work on his defense, but he’s a fine player, too. But my big thing is this recruiting class, as well as the kinds of players Sidney has been able to get close to. As far as recruiting, he’s done a pretty outstanding job considering we finished no better than 10th in the ACC for three years.

    With Sid, we MIGHT end up with more bad basketball. But fire him now, and we DEFINITELY will. But at least, with Sid and these recruits, we have SOME reason for hope. Replace him, and it all goes down the tubes. That’s my position.

    I do want to see what happens in 2010 with Ryan Harrow coming in. But if Sidney is downright pitiful this year, and it is obvious that he is the problem, and not just freshmen making freshmen mistakes, then I will join those of you calling for his job. It really does depend on what we do this year. But I’m not going to say, “Make the NCAAT or fire Sid” because that’s not a fair expectation for such a youthful team. I just want to see what Sid does with this group before assessing if he should be here in 2010.

    And for the record, I think we CAN make the NCAAT with this group, this year. I just don’t EXPECT it. There are too many unknowns. Even top-rated players fall on their faces sometimes when they get to the next level.

  16. NCSU4ever 06/24/2009 at 10:48 AM #

    IMO The main reasoning for not wanting to fire Sidney after two horrible seasons (Sorry I can’t write off 06 as horrible but I suspect Atsur was coaching the team that season)
    We know beyond a shadow of a doubt he will not be replaced with a top tier high major coach.
    If Sid is to be replaced we have to make damn sure a thorough, well planned search is conducted.
    If no proven major coach can be found, the next option should be a coach at a mid major who has a proven track record of building a program. Which is what should have been done before Sid was hired.
    After this season if the program is not showing improvement I hope the administration will begin quietly putting together a proper search.

  17. NCSU4ever 06/24/2009 at 11:09 AM #

    Update on The Post NBA Exodus:

    Elliot Williams has transferred from Duke

    I’d say MD now is the favorite for 2nd place Duke has zero guard play

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