From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

Long-time commenter (and very gracious guest in Wolfpack Blogistan) nycfan gave a very detailed assessment of our basketball program under the “stewardship” of Fowler and Lowe. Many times, a knowledgeable outsider can give a more honest, objective assessment – since emotion doesn’t get in the way. I just wanted to highlight this comment for the community, and don’t believe it needs more commentary from me. Have a good weekend, everyone!

At this point, even as an outsider I think I can say without offending anyone that State’s hoops program is not among the elite and hasn’t been since about 1990. So is it aspiring to be elite? I can only assume that deep down, that is what Lowe aspires to, but the public statements sure don’t sound like it.

I know coaches always have to engage in managing expectations just for self-preservation, but what I hear from Lowe and Fowler seems more expansive than that — it sounds like rationalization why Lowe failed to motivate or develop the left-over guys, as though it is not fair to expect Lowe to connect with or develop inherited players (or that no one else has ever won with some one else’s players). This argument rings hollow in particular regarding Costner/Fells/Ferguson/McCauley to me because they played most of their careers for Lowe.

OK, I can accept that upperclassmen left by a prior regime might harbor resentments and never buy what the new guy is selling. I also know that some coaches have no qualms about throwing those upperclassmen overboard (K after his first season at dook, Mack Brown at UNC), taking early lumps in order to build something with “their guys” from the outset. But we’re talking about guys who were freshmen and sophomores when Lowe arrived, who had played limited playing time and who expressed a lot of optimism about basketball being fun again. And yet we are told (or left to infer) that Lowe had no obligation to develop these guys (or cut bait) and expectations to the contrary are too demanding. Lowe can only be expected to develop guys he personally recruited (but we also can’t count his early recruiting classes against him, so no data on player development counts yet either).

I dunno. I’m not a State fan but I personally think the ACC is more fun and healthier when State is a relevant team. And I can’t believe you guys are basically being told, sorry, those first three years didn’t count, we were just learning on the job and you know, killing time until we could purge the system and START building in YEAR 4. And, oh, by the way, the goal of three years of wheel-spinning and a 4th year reboot is to finish in the top half of the conference and make the NCAAT. Really?? Seriously??

OTOH, I’m no seer. Maybe this is somthing that could work. After all, didn’t that guy I’m not supposed to name work on that same time-line (though Year 5 was a bit of an OOOPS! and then those top half ACC/NCAAT seasons came rolling in without much hope of challenging for a championship locally or nationally, maybe, but you consistently got to be involved in the first weekend of the NCAAT for 5 years).

But from my outsider’s POV, I have thought Lowe is awfully prone to excuses and rationalizations in his first three seasons and it seems to me that nothing has yet changed. He is basically starting this season by saying “you know all those guys who just graduated or left, well they all sucked, so what the heck was I supposed to do? change the culture? make them better? that’s not my job, my job is to coach guys I want to coach and now I just need you to back off and give me time to coach them.” It rubs me the wrong way as an ACC/college hoops fan; it would piss me off if one of those players were my kid or if I were emotionally invested in NC State’s success.

I absolutely HATED that same kind of thing from John Bunting — I never doubted the man’s love for UNC or his overall integrity, but he engaged in endless rationalizations and blame games and I always disliked him as a coach because of it. (Losing consistently just made it that much more demoralizing to have him around.)

It’s not often that fans are asked to WTNY the summer before THIS year begins. And heaven help Ryan Harrow for all the hopes, dreams and expectations being heaped on him as a freshman PG in year 5. I always felt sorry for Ishua Benjamin b/c I thought he was a great kid who got chewed up by those kind of expectations/desperate desire for a savior at State.

Sorry for rant. I try not to be too negative (and comparing anyone to John Bunting in my book is a serious negative) as a guest on other fan sites, but there is my unvarnished POV.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

67 Responses to From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

  1. Dogbreath 06/21/2009 at 6:15 PM #

    One more time I will point this out:

    This class does not feature any immediate impact/16+ ppg players. From a rankings standpoint, its on par with the 98 class (Inge, Miller, Kelley, Anderson, Thomas, Williams). Unfortunately, we don’t have a CC Harrison or Ish Benjamin on this upcoming team to allow the freshman to assimilate in a reasonable timeframe.

    I am thinking a 15-14 type of season is what we are in for. Other than Tracy Smith, we have no one who has demonstrated the ability to put the ball in the basket or defend at the ACC level.

  2. Dogbreath 06/21/2009 at 6:21 PM #

    To add, we will go 6-10 in the conference and 9-4 in whatever perenially horseshit out of conference schedule Jed has packaged together. This, of course, will be more than enough to warrant a 3 year contract extension.

  3. WolftownVA81 06/21/2009 at 8:46 PM #

    Four years of on the job training is enough. Produce this year or hit the road, and Jed needs to go now. I pray he has not escaped his well deserved fate with all the other heads rolling. The Wolfpack Nation deserves better than this crap. I would have liked to hear Sid lay down his own timeline for success since his dufus boss didn’t. He may love State, but I’d be embarresed to collect my paycheck if I didn’t perform at my job any better than he has performed his. I hope Sid has the integrity to do the right thing if this season is not measurably better than the last two.

  4. blpack 06/21/2009 at 9:43 PM #

    At the other ACC schools, ok maybe not FSU, this would be a make or break year. Can the guy coach? Can State begin to climb out of the muck and into respectability? Are our future goals 8-8 and top half of the league or competing for national honors? This year will be very interesting, but I’m afraid until the admin makes a commitment to excellence the broken record will continue to repeat.

  5. choppack1 06/21/2009 at 9:56 PM #

    Sid’s biggest problem thus far is managment.

    As I said to a someone the other day about his second – “Yea, supposedly there were some big chemistry problems that came up about halfway through the season. Of course, that doesn’t explain the problem w/ conditioning.”

    Sid knows what these kids are supposed to do and where they should be. However, that’s not enough. He has to get the right people here. He has to motivate them during the off-season. He has to motivate them when they are playing a team they can beat, but everyone will understand if they don’t. He has to convince them that even though they are down by 10 points, this game is still theirs.

  6. JeremyH 06/22/2009 at 1:16 AM #

    yes, his substitution patterns were a symptom of that. chemistry, conditioning, defense, good point guard, his guys…hopefully this wack-a-mole game will end this season and we get a solid product on the floor. although it may be hard to figure out who will produce besides Smith right now, I’m hoping these new kids surprise us. brown, wood, painter, oh my!

  7. Sw0rdf1sh 06/22/2009 at 7:59 AM #

    I’m a fan and I’m excited about this year. Why wouldn’t I be?

    I’m not going to continously bring up is Sid good enough in this offseason as we enjoy one of the better classes in recruiting that we have had in some time. That said, I don’t agree with Dogbreath regarding instant impact players….I think we will see some big play from our freshmen….we have to.

    Next year is coming….I’m ready and feeling positive.

    I agree with a lot of the posters comments though….I’ve been a fan all my life but didn’t get to NCSU until 90. It has been a hard time watching BBall since then…that is for sure.

  8. packalum44 06/22/2009 at 9:35 AM #

    NYCFAN writes a beautifully articulated post that analyzes Lowe and Fowler’s latest public comments in an objective manner. Well done.

    I want Lowe to be a great coach who can make State “elite” again. I don’t care about getting into the dance. I want to win the dance. I want to compete in the dance. I want ESPN to mention my school in March and speculate about how deep we’ll go. I want to hear Final 4 in the same sentence as NC State.

    I wanted and still want Lowe to be that guy. Why wouldn’t I? He’s our coach. Based on what I’ve seen though, he’s not that guy. Even with a major upgrade in talent, I fear we’ll fall short of our potential. This means more painful frustration in the early rounds of the NCAA.

    He gets a 4th year to show what he can do. A good coach could take this squad to the dance. Period.

    In the meantime, I will exert all my efforts to ask the new administration to evaluate the leadership of our athletics department and make adjustments accordingly.

  9. choppack1 06/22/2009 at 10:05 AM #

    packalum – I just want to see MORE progress. I actually saw progress last year – and I hope to see the same this year. We have to realize, we can still make a great deal of progress and still the miss the tourney…Part of that’s because we haven’t been part of the discussion in March since Lowe has arrived. If we’re a bubble team – we’ll have taken a huge step in the right direction, regardless of whether we get a bid or not.

    If he does that and there are no other issues, I can deal w/ another year in order to get a player like Harrow.

  10. Thinkpack17 06/22/2009 at 10:14 AM #

    “This class does not feature any immediate impact/16+ ppg players.”

    I don’t know if you have seen game tape on Lo Brown or Scott Wood, but they can put the ball in the hole. If you are talking 16 points per games as a freshman those players are few and far between. Julius Hodge didn’t average 16 points a game as a freshman, neither did JJ Redick. I’m betting Derrick Favors doesn’t average 16 a game in ACC play this year.

  11. Girlfriend in a Coma 06/22/2009 at 10:30 AM #

    “and I think he has shown that he is laying a stronger foundation than State has seen in years.”

    You can’t actually be serious with that.

  12. bradleyb123 06/22/2009 at 3:15 PM #

    To those of you saying, make the NCAAT, or finish in the top five in the ACC, or fire Sid……. you may as well just say “Fire Sid now!” Sid had a bad first three years. Now we’re in a rebuilding year. I FULLY expect these expectations to come to fruition next year, with nearly 100% certainty. And maybe THIS year, but with all the freshman we have now, it’s hard to say.

    With us being this close to having what we want, I just don’t understand the comments about firing Sidney after THIS year, so we can ENSURE that we go back down for another 3-4 years. Firing Sid after THIS year is like giving us the death penalty for several more years. But wait another year, and it’s nearly certain that we have what we want.

    It makes me wonder how many of you really don’t WANT Sid to succeed.

    I’m glad the administration is patient enough to see this out.

  13. VaWolf82 06/22/2009 at 3:36 PM #

    I’m glad the administration is patient enough to see this out.

    The “administration” is not the issue. The administration is not the group that got tired of losing with Chuck and forced a change. This is the group that Sid needs to impress this year; not the administration and not the posters here.

    Not every team loses 3-4 years when a coaching change is made. I wish you would quit referring to this as if it were a proven fact.

  14. Wulfpack 06/22/2009 at 4:00 PM #

    “Firing Sid after THIS year is like giving us the death penalty for several more years.”

    You honestly think it would take a proven coach 3-4 years to get this program off the ground?

    I hope that Sid can pull this off. It’s gotta happen now, though. Honeymoon’s over…

  15. hball57 06/22/2009 at 4:01 PM #

    You know, you can listen to a news conference and get exactly what you want to get from it. If Sidney doesn’t give his thoughts regarding the last 2 years, he would get blasted for not accepting that there were issues and the team wasn’t doing well. He answers the questions and he is making excuses. I have always believed that you can’t win with the fans.

    He talked about what he likes about his current players and what is great moving forward and everybody jumps on it as an indictment of the players who have left. I don’t understand why some people choose to be fans of NC State. Do you guys want to be miserable? Or do some of you like to act like this is your personal fantasy team, wanting to hire and fire people right and left?

    Please understand, I am not trying to insult some of the posters here. I use NC State Sports as my hope and support and dreams. If they don’t win I am disappointed, but I will never go into a situation not thinking they will win. What would the point of that be? I will always root for them, support them, encourage them and always be in the Pack’s corner. If I am going to be negative, what is the point?

  16. 61Packer 06/22/2009 at 4:30 PM #

    The Swarovskis pictured at the beginning of this article were pointed the wrong way if they were there to help us see where this program is headed.

    8×42? Sounds about like what our ACC record will be in the next 3 seasons under the present coaching staff.

  17. nycfan 06/22/2009 at 4:41 PM #

    I agree with the sentiment that in isolation, it it tough to expect State to make the NCAAT this season with such an inexperienced team. But if Fowler continues to set the bar so low (start this season with WTNY and set the bar for next season or whaever the near future may be with a top half finish in the ACC), then he is likely to get exactly what he is asking for and not much more.

    There is always a fine line between managing expectations and eroding them, I guess, and I think the combined information I heard/read from Lowe and Fowler crossed that line to erosion by a pretty wide margin. Perhaps Fowler just needs a PR class — had he said something like “our goal at NC State is to have a championship basketball program and I think with this new season Wolfpack basketball under Sidney Lowe is primed to take an important step toward that rebuilding the foundation of championship basketball” he could have both set a high standard and given Lowe breathing room/support for a rebuilding year toward a higher goal. Sure, it would be absurd at this juncture to predict a national contender in a year or two, but if you only aspire to the middle of the pack you are unlikely to find your way to the top of the heap.

    Instead, it sounds an awful lot like a guy or program operating from a fear of failure (setting the bar so low you can’t fail absent an absolute disaster) rather than aspirations for greatness (that still have room to build toward that grander goal).

  18. Thinkpack17 06/22/2009 at 4:53 PM #

    “You honestly think it would take a proven coach 3-4 years to get this program off the ground?”

    Nope…but every proven coach we went after shot us down.

  19. Thinkpack17 06/22/2009 at 5:12 PM #

    “If Sidney doesn’t give his thoughts regarding the last 2 years, he would get blasted for not accepting that there were issues and the team wasn’t doing well. He answers the questions and he is making excuses.”

    +1

  20. Gene 06/22/2009 at 9:41 PM #

    “I don’t know if you have seen game tape on Lo Brown or Scott Wood”

    Unless you’ve watched complete games (plural, not just one game) of these guys in action, I don’t think you can make a judgment about how good they are. The highlight videos floating around the internet are meant to make players look good.

  21. Thinkpack17 06/23/2009 at 9:22 AM #

    ^^First of all…this argument is absolute rubbish. I have never seen John Henson, Derrick Favors or Xavier Henry play multiple games but I know they can put the ball in the hole. That’s number one. And while it’s true highlight tapes aren’t the whole truth of a kid’s game there is still info there. Scott Woods tapes may hide somethings, maybe he can’t play D, maybe he rebounds poorly, maybe he is missing a finger, but you can’t fake pulling up 3 steps past half court and milking an in rhythm jumper. You can’t deny the kid can get buckets. That’s two. Lastly, I have seen Lo Brown play in person…he’s good. I’m sure a few others can confirm that.

  22. Cardiff Giant 06/23/2009 at 11:58 AM #

    This poster makes a truly great point – we heard from numerous folks on that team that basketball was supposed to be fun when Buddha took his wood and axe to the desert. We had a team that was supposed to compete, per many, in the upper echelons of the conference and instead had an embarassing disaster.

    Now we are indeed told that all of that doesn’t matter because Sid is now coaching with HIS guys. Guys such as Javi Gonzalez and Farnold Degand, who wouldn’t even be towel-wavers for the Holes?

    It just never stops, this BS. Fortunately the season before last pretty much killed it for me in basketball, so I can kick back and watch the results with detached interest.

  23. bradleyb123 06/23/2009 at 12:08 PM #

    ^ “Not every team loses 3-4 years when a coaching change is made. I wish you would quit referring to this as if it were a proven fact.”

    I know, that doesn’t happen to every team. But my question to you is, what exactly is it about NC State’s track record that makes you think it WOULDN’T happen to US?

    My point is, why risk that when we have some big-time recruits coming in that can turn things around for us in the 12-24 months? Given our track record, I think it’s safe to say our next coach would not be very proven at the highest level of college basketball. So I think we would doom ourselves to several MORE years of bad basketball if we were to change now. I’m willing to risk one more year (or two, depending on how the 2009-10 season goes) on Sidney and this group to get us where we want to be.

  24. Wolfman 9806 06/23/2009 at 12:20 PM #

    The most painful thing to me is the drastic divergence between FB and BB. MY gosh look at how excided we all get at the mere mention of the FB team (and rightfully so). At this point, I understand the mindset of the SEC fan………..I SIMPLY NO LONGER CARE ABOUT BB! Keep Lowe, who really gives a sh*t anymore. Even if we fired him, we would simply embarass ourselves again in the ‘national seach.’ I’m just grateful that Fowler did screw-up the gift he had in TOB falling into his lap.

  25. wolfpacker95 06/23/2009 at 1:07 PM #

    My prediction?

    If the current players and recruits stay healthy, we’ll see the Sweet 16 within 3 years.

Leave a Reply