From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe67

Long-time commenter (and very gracious guest in Wolfpack Blogistan) nycfan gave a very detailed assessment of our basketball program under the “stewardship” of Fowler and Lowe. Many times, a knowledgeable outsider can give a more honest, objective assessment – since emotion doesn’t get in the way. I just wanted to highlight this comment for the community, and don’t believe it needs more commentary from me. Have a good weekend, everyone!

At this point, even as an outsider I think I can say without offending anyone that State’s hoops program is not among the elite and hasn’t been since about 1990. So is it aspiring to be elite? I can only assume that deep down, that is what Lowe aspires to, but the public statements sure don’t sound like it.

I know coaches always have to engage in managing expectations just for self-preservation, but what I hear from Lowe and Fowler seems more expansive than that — it sounds like rationalization why Lowe failed to motivate or develop the left-over guys, as though it is not fair to expect Lowe to connect with or develop inherited players (or that no one else has ever won with some one else’s players). This argument rings hollow in particular regarding Costner/Fells/Ferguson/McCauley to me because they played most of their careers for Lowe.

OK, I can accept that upperclassmen left by a prior regime might harbor resentments and never buy what the new guy is selling. I also know that some coaches have no qualms about throwing those upperclassmen overboard (K after his first season at dook, Mack Brown at UNC), taking early lumps in order to build something with “their guys” from the outset. But we’re talking about guys who were freshmen and sophomores when Lowe arrived, who had played limited playing time and who expressed a lot of optimism about basketball being fun again. And yet we are told (or left to infer) that Lowe had no obligation to develop these guys (or cut bait) and expectations to the contrary are too demanding. Lowe can only be expected to develop guys he personally recruited (but we also can’t count his early recruiting classes against him, so no data on player development counts yet either).

I dunno. I’m not a State fan but I personally think the ACC is more fun and healthier when State is a relevant team. And I can’t believe you guys are basically being told, sorry, those first three years didn’t count, we were just learning on the job and you know, killing time until we could purge the system and START building in YEAR 4. And, oh, by the way, the goal of three years of wheel-spinning and a 4th year reboot is to finish in the top half of the conference and make the NCAAT. Really?? Seriously??

OTOH, I’m no seer. Maybe this is somthing that could work. After all, didn’t that guy I’m not supposed to name work on that same time-line (though Year 5 was a bit of an OOOPS! and then those top half ACC/NCAAT seasons came rolling in without much hope of challenging for a championship locally or nationally, maybe, but you consistently got to be involved in the first weekend of the NCAAT for 5 years).

But from my outsider’s POV, I have thought Lowe is awfully prone to excuses and rationalizations in his first three seasons and it seems to me that nothing has yet changed. He is basically starting this season by saying “you know all those guys who just graduated or left, well they all sucked, so what the heck was I supposed to do? change the culture? make them better? that’s not my job, my job is to coach guys I want to coach and now I just need you to back off and give me time to coach them.” It rubs me the wrong way as an ACC/college hoops fan; it would piss me off if one of those players were my kid or if I were emotionally invested in NC State’s success.

I absolutely HATED that same kind of thing from John Bunting — I never doubted the man’s love for UNC or his overall integrity, but he engaged in endless rationalizations and blame games and I always disliked him as a coach because of it. (Losing consistently just made it that much more demoralizing to have him around.)

It’s not often that fans are asked to WTNY the summer before THIS year begins. And heaven help Ryan Harrow for all the hopes, dreams and expectations being heaped on him as a freshman PG in year 5. I always felt sorry for Ishua Benjamin b/c I thought he was a great kid who got chewed up by those kind of expectations/desperate desire for a savior at State.

Sorry for rant. I try not to be too negative (and comparing anyone to John Bunting in my book is a serious negative) as a guest on other fan sites, but there is my unvarnished POV.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

67 Responses to From the Comments – An Outside View of NC State Hoops

  1. Wolfpack_1995 06/20/2009 at 9:05 AM #

    It’s been so long since we were relevant IMO.

    Good summation in post of the endless excuses State basketball fans have been fed since Valvano left.

    If the Sid experiment does not work out, then I still hold out hope that we will bring a coach, similar to TOB, who will hold himself and players accountable and truly start to show progress in year 4.

    Basically we are already being set up by Lowe and Fowler not to expect much until next year. How convenient.

    Maybe one day in the future we will be blessed with another MAF who I see similarities with TOB that has true visions of greatness.

    People talk about UNC football as a sleeping giant. Shit, State basketball has been put in a coma since Valvano left.

  2. old13 06/20/2009 at 10:40 AM #

    I think that she (nycfan) describes things quite accurately. Pack Leader, what has being from the north got to do with anything! Raleigh is in NORTH Carolina, isn’t it?

  3. bradleyb123 06/20/2009 at 11:33 AM #

    The current group are mostly freshmen. We’re a VERY young team.

    If this was Lowe’s first year, would we expect THIS group of guys to finish above .500 in the ACC, in the top half of the ACC, and get an NCAAT bid?

    No? Or probably not, you say? Then why would we say that about them NOW, just because this is Sid’s fourth year? I mean, I understand the frustration with the basketball team not being better than they were in Sid’s first three years. And I wouldn’t be defending Sid now had he not pulled in such a good recruiting haul. For that, I’m willing to give him a shot with them. And with such a young group, we have to be realistic about our expectations. They’re good, but they’re not the Fab Five.

    This poster makes some good points. But I don’t agree with every word, either. I just wonder, why can’t we all just sit tight, and SEE what Sidney does with these guys, for ONE year?

  4. GApack04 06/20/2009 at 11:56 AM #

    In a way I wish Sid would’ve cut bait with the upperclassmen, but that is not a very nice thing to do and I believe Sid is a nice guy. Everyone knows what can be said about “nice” guys.

    A few questions:

    What happens if Chris Wright, Dan Werner, and Larry Davis make it to campus for Sid’s first year?

    What if Ced stays another year?

    What happens if JJ stays another year?

    If any of those items happened we may be looking at Sid’s first few years very differently.

    For me personally this is a make or break year for this regime. I want a middle of the pack or higher finish in the ACC and I want the team to be considered to be a “bubble team” for the NCAAT. If that happens I will feel solid about 2010-2011. If things don’t live up to those expectations I am really going to be worried about ’10-’11. If he can’t win and get max effort out of his guys he will never win anywhere.

  5. LRM 06/20/2009 at 1:40 PM #

    You know, all this dissent could have been avoided if only, when Lowe was hired, Fowler had laid out specific expectations with a specific timeframe. That way, those of us on the Lunatic Fringe would know what our window would have been before we are allowed to have any kind of *lofty* expectations like a “finish in the top half of the league.”

  6. TOBtime 06/20/2009 at 1:43 PM #

    GAPack04, we can’t look back at the what if’s. IF PR could have redshirted we would have had a legit Heisman QB with a #1 ranked defense. I think even a buffoon like Amato could have put us in the top 10 with that scenario but it didn’t happen.
    I agree with you this is make or break. We have some talent, better depth than since Sid arrived, and experience. We HAVE to show improvement (top 5 ACC, tourney appearance) or we never will.

  7. StateFans 06/20/2009 at 1:56 PM #

    Kennel…I mean “Greywolf”…don’t bother typing comments that attack us. Our traffic is SO HUGE that I can’t afford to pay for the bandwidth!

  8. charger17 06/20/2009 at 2:10 PM #

    After reading most of the comments in the last two posts, it is really amazing how so many of us are willing to slide on the expectation scale. First, it’s this, then it’s really only fair for this, then it’s . . .

    I don’t care what happens, the bottom line for me is exactly what BJD has been saying all along, NCAAT birth or bye-bye. And EVERY NC STATE fan should hold Lowe and Fowler to this standard in March! NO EXCEPTIONS!

  9. travelwolf 06/20/2009 at 3:20 PM #

    We should have gotten to the NCAA’s last year – that should have been the “And EVERY NC STATE fan should hold Lowe and Fowler to this standard in March! NO EXCEPTIONS!” year.

    To me, this is a ‘rebuilding year’. I’m not expecting many ACC wins, but what I do hope for (NOTE: I’m not saying expect, because i don’t expect… sub par coaches will always be that – no matter who they coach) and what would happen if Lowe IS a good coach is that the team will improve as the season drags on. We should be winning a few more games at the end of the season than the beginning – and at least not be blown out as much. We are VERY YOUNG. Most of our returners were role players or were injured. We have a lot of unknowns in this season, so it will be very interesting but painful season. We have talented freshmen, but generally they wouldn’t be talented enough to be great their first year. If we had recruited 3 players in the top 25, I would have higher expectations, but we didn’t.

    I fully expect us to be in the bottom 1/3 of the ACC – it’s just not realistic to expect us to win 1/2 our ACC games next year. But, the following year should be the ‘make or break’ year for Lowe – if he hasn’t put together a winning program by then, time for another coach search.

    Getting great recruits is part of the equation of having an elite program, so Lowe is providing that part. Let’s see if he can provide the other parts.

  10. GAWolf 06/20/2009 at 4:31 PM #

    There’s an old maxim in contract law that allows a party to a contract that repeatedly breaches certain conditions of the contract without penalty or reprimand from the non-breaching party to assume their actions and/or inactions are now permitted and thus allowed by the contract. For instance, if you have a residential lease with rent due on the 5th of each month and every single month the landlord takes the rent on the 15th without question for 9 months running the landlord will have a tough time evicting on the 10th month for late rent when it shows up on the 15th rather than the 5th. Now I’ve over-simplified this theory considerably with my analogy, but I think that best examples my point other than say the completely theorherical example of an AD who repeatedly allows his coaches to produce terrible results on the field/court without reprimand who then latwr loses the ability to fire them for cause for the same many years later. But that’s just a lawschool-like example…like a grandma who wants to sell the family farm, Shitacre, to her dog for one scooby snack to avoid the wishes of a previous heir who required Shitacre never be turned into toxic waste dump. It’s all just dumb hypotheticals we’re talking here, right?

  11. VaWolf82 06/20/2009 at 7:48 PM #

    If this was Lowe’s first year, would we expect THIS group of guys to finish above .500 in the ACC, in the top half of the ACC, and get an NCAAT bid?

    This has to be one of the worst lines of reasoning that I have ever had the misfortune to read….and that’s saying alot considering all of the crap that the HSSS used to spew.

  12. GoldenChain 06/20/2009 at 9:17 PM #

    I think everyone has overlooked the biggest question: it’s not the inexperience of the kids….it’s the inexperience of the coach.

    Sid was obviously green as grass when he came. The question is has he learned anything through 3 seasons? Early wins against unx and Duke now look almost like sheer will of the players rather than expert coaching with a less talented roster.
    In year two Sid showed (what appeared to me and many on here) some huge gaffs during the second half slide. Many of those games could have been won if some things were handled differently from the sideline. IN fact it appeared that there was a slavish devotion to a system ill-fitted to the college game.

    After season 2 we heard some token lip-service that lessons had been learn but then came the 08-09 campaign. And while there were some improvements there were just as many new questions brought to the surface. Substitutions, rotations, clock, yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc.

    I’m not worried about the kids. There is enough talent to win some games they shouldn’t and show some flashes of brilliance (and some nights they crash with a thud). What I’m more worried about is the coaching.

    GAWolf, maybe this legal/business example is closer: a person has a past due account but keeps making some small token payments periodically. As long as I keep cashing the paltry checks it is nearly impossible for me to get a judgement against him because he’ll just show up in court and say he’s doing the best he can under the circumstances and he is making an effort. That seems to be the state of affairs with our hoops.
    But that’s just my business experience, maybe I need a better lawyer.

  13. Gene 06/20/2009 at 10:01 PM #

    Only what if that burns my mind about NCSU is what if Herb had successfully out recruited Roy Williams for the services of Ty Lawson. The equation of basketball power in the ACC would’ve shifted a bit, the last few years.

  14. graywolf 06/20/2009 at 10:54 PM #

    Can Sid coach and especially from the sideline? I am not convinced that he can. I known that Sendek could not and I know that Valvano was a master at it as was Norm Sloan.

    We will find out how good of a coach Sid is by seasons end and this will determine how the fan base reacts toward him and towards Fowler. I hope it turns out good but my gut feeling is that it gets ugly. I hope I’m wrong.

  15. PackerInRussia 06/21/2009 at 12:41 AM #

    Sid is the coach for this season and most likely will be at season’s end unless something very disastrous happens. Some really good players are coming in. So, I will cheer for the team and hope for the best. However, the point of the commenter is points out a big flaw in this whole venture. How many high-profile jobs have a built-in 4-year excuse? If this job were an ad in the newspaper, it’d read something like: “Wanted: head coach for an ACC basketball team. High pay. Expectations will be low for at least the first four years. No experience needed.”
    Again, my support is there for this year, but at what point do you say, Maybe this guy hasn’t just been stuck in a series of unfortunate events; maybe he’s just not the right guy for the job. It’d be nice to say that this year would reveal that, but the excuse machine shows no sign of slowing, so I don’t expect honest analysis or specific expectations from anyone in the athletic department after this season either.

  16. Rick 06/21/2009 at 7:58 AM #

    I am to the point that I do not even bother posting arguments either way.
    I am starting to doubt will ever be good.
    No leadership
    No drive
    No expectations
    No vision

    No RESULTS
    Why care?

  17. tuckerdorm1983 06/21/2009 at 8:28 AM #

    the proof is in the pudding. we shall see and then we shall see. I am willing to give him a few years more. Hell, what have the last 10 or so been like. Just maybe he can do it and take us to the dance or maybe not. I just think back to his first season. According to my countdown timer it is 74 days 10 hours 21 mins until kickoff at CFS. Why are we having this discussion?

  18. Skeeball 06/21/2009 at 9:23 AM #

    Sid was what our 3rd choice? after everyone proven turned us down for the job? We arent paying him a top salary either for ACC coaches. You get what you pay for! We are lucky TOB doesnt demand more, how much more does Butch make than TOB? NCSU has always been cheap on their coaches – we just pay for corrupt political figures to do nothing on the payroll.

  19. Wolfpack_1995 06/21/2009 at 11:00 AM #

    As I’ve said before Thank God TOB believes in accountability.

    My only hope is some of this rubs off on others in the Athletic Dept.

  20. transylvania 06/21/2009 at 1:42 PM #

    A while back, rumors abounded that a major shake-up was imminent in the Athletic Dept, possibly (hopefully) leading to Fowler’s ouster. Of course, much has happened since then (Easley, et al.), but I’m wondering what any of our posters with “sources” are hearing these days…

  21. old13 06/21/2009 at 1:46 PM #

    Frankly I’m very frustrated with, and just plain tired of these types of discussions – not that they aren’t warranted; but it’s become like a broken record (remember them!) to me. The bottom line is that had we a competent AD, discussions of this nature would hardly be necessary – at least not on an ongoing basis for months at a time. Is the SFN community a small minority of Wolfpack Nation? Or does if represent a cross section of it? I don’t know. But if it does represent a cross section, I don’t understand why Foulup was not fired months, if not years ago. Even with StatusQuoblinger in charge, it would seem that pressures from Wolfpack Nation opinion would still have some bearing. But here we still are! Does anybody think that Dr. Woodward would respond to any pressure to replace the AD? Or would he just leave it to the next Chancellor (a year of so from now!)

    Signed,

    Frustrated Wolfpacker

  22. howlie 06/21/2009 at 3:43 PM #

    This guy “never doubted John Bunting’s overall integrity?”

    Excuse me?

  23. highstick 06/21/2009 at 4:50 PM #

    Fish or cut bait! I’m tired of waiting and I’m also tired of alumni with low expectations! Maybe that’s why we’re in the position that we’re in. Those of us who knew success are getting to be fewer and fewer annually and those with low or no expectations just keep on multiplying!

  24. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 06/21/2009 at 5:00 PM #

    I hope that fans will give Sid a little bit of room to show progress and I think he has shown that he is laying a stronger foundation than State has seen in years. This is Lowe’s fourth year but in practice this is his 3rd season. Sid took over a program with little going for it and a recruiting class and a big man that left the program.

    He held that team together and brought in a blue chip in his second year that showed he can recruit but also showed he had a lot to learn about building a team. After some close and just bad games in December and January of this season, Lowe once again showed he is improving.

    State has a top 20 class according to almost everyone and even better according to others. Unlike Amato when the program seemed to slide year after year, Lowe has improved a program that basically had nothing going for it when he took the job.

  25. rtpack24 06/21/2009 at 6:07 PM #

    All the discussion on Sid’s players vs players from previos staff does not hold water with me. The day Sid became our coach those were his players. Now this up coming year we will have his players and this is supposed to be a good recruiting class. Coach V used to say prospects are suspect. Until next year starts we do not know how much any of the new recruits will be able to contribute. I believe we have good players. I believe we had enough talent to win last year. When the leading scorer in the last game of the season had not seen the floor for a month and a half it is not the players that I am concerned with.

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