How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

09-10 Basketball NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Sidney Lowe184

badgeHow long should a team give a coach to turn a program around?

It’s an interesting question, and one that seems to be on the lips of many an NC State fan after the past couple of basketball seasons.  Me, I am not saying one way or the other that State should “do something” about head coach Sidney Lowe, as I think that will be decided by next year’s results.  I think that’s only fair, to let a coach build his own team according to his designs.  But I do think that next year will be the proverbial fish-or-cut-bait season for Lowe, and that his tenure will be decided about this time of year in 2010.  One thing is for sure — other schools are not waiting that long to come to a conclusion about their own coaches.

Opinions are of course all over the NC State map on this question, with some saying fire Lowe now, others saying fire Lowe, Fowler and Chancellor Oblinger now, all the way to folks who think Lowe should get a raise and a contract extension.  I guess with a family as large as Wolfpack Nation, a range of opinions that wide is to be expected.

Here’s something I found today that I think is interesting.  I’m guessing that this was written by one of our younger fans, someone who probably never witnessed the  days of NC State being highly competitive in ACC basketball.  It’s a comment I found about Kentucky potentially firing head coach Billy Gillespie after the Willdcats have underperformed for the past two seasons under his guidance.

“Kentucky is not NC State. They have won 3 SEC championships since 2000 and 7 more during the ’90s. How many ACC championships did we win during that time span? The rebuilding job is not the same so they can’t be held to the same standard, imo.”

On the surface, this is true — the UK program’s heritage, both recent and historical is far deeper than NC State’s.  Facts are facts.

But some other facts jump out that are equally interesting:

  • “Along the way Gillispie grew more publicly critical of his players, often foisting the blame onto their shoulders.”
  • “Playing time for some players rose and fell seemingly on a whim.”
  • And most damning, the Wildcats record was 22-13 with only a .500 conference record in the sub-par SEC and no NCAA bid for a team that considers these bids to be a birthright.

If the first two don’t sound familiar, they should. Sounds like a movie we just saw…I forget the name, but I think it was a disaster movie.

More to the point, however, let’s take a look at how long it can take a good coach to turn a marginal team around.

  • Sean Miller is in his fifth season at Xavier  and has made the NCAA four of those years, with an Elite 8 and a  Sweet 16 to his credit the past two years.
  • Mike Anderson is in his third season at Missouri and is going to the Elite 8, after defeating #1 seed Memphis last night.  Keep in mind that Mizzou was on three years NCAA probation until 2007.
  • Travis Ford took Oklahoma State to the NCAA second round in his first season.

In other words, it doesn’t take twenty years, ten years or even five years to turn the ship on a major D1 program.  And if you don’t think NC State is a major D1 program, have you noticed the size of the University and the investment it has made in its basketball facilities?  Indeed, NC State may not be Kentucky, but then again, neither is Mizzou, Xavier or a host of other schools.  They turned around quickly and to say that NC State cannot do so it utterly ridiculous.

Schools like Kentucky and UNC don’t wait long to fold losing hands — we saw that with Mat Doherty and we are seeing that with Billy Gillespie now.  Gillespie will probably be shown the blue door in the next few days (my suspicion is during the Final Four. UPDATE: It’s official)  People may ask, what is Kentucky waiting on?  I would guess buyout considerations and maybe ensuring that they have someone to step in immediately.  Schools like UK don’t tend towards coaching searches conducted in secret bunkers on Kerr Lake in a bass boat where there is spotty cellphone coverage.  Most importantly, schools like Kentucky DO take decisive steps to protect their perceived place in the college basketball world and there, WTNY doesn’t cut it.  Maybe that’s why a Kentucky is a Kentucky?

At the end of the day, I think that the author of that comment is drinking Fowler-flavor Kool-Aid.  And I am certain it doesn’t take five or ten years to turn around a mediocre and underperforming hoops program.

09-10 Basketball NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Sidney Lowe

184 Responses to How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

  1. JasonP 03/27/2009 at 11:33 AM #

    Lorenzo Brown is a combo guard and is coming in next season. There’s a good chance he beats out Javi and Mays by December and starts PG.

  2. Ed89 03/27/2009 at 11:36 AM #

    Can we please get away from the “But then he wasted scholarships on Farnold Degand, Bartosz Lewandowski and Marques Johnson” line??? I will concede, and he probably would too, but to repeat it ad nauseam every time we have a discussion on the merits of Sid’s coaching is getting old. Can anyone name a coach who didn’t bring in a few busts??? Big Lew had a medical issue and very well could have helped us the past 3 years. I saw him in the Red/White game that first year, and he would have played.

    Harrow is supposedly now 6’1″ and about 175. Chris Paul is 6’0″ and 180. Curry’s about the same size, so is DJ Augustine (smaller). I’m not saying Harrow is as good or will be as good, but evaluating a player simply because of their size is why some good ACC coaches have alot of egg on their faces (see Curry).

  3. dj9686 03/27/2009 at 11:47 AM #

    Not to be a stickler here, but I believe Memphis was a #2 seed.

    You are correct, sir — Alpha.

  4. choppack1 03/27/2009 at 11:52 AM #

    “Last point, you need to add Mike Anderson and Travis Ford to your BCS Conference coaches making NCAA Tourney within three years list.”

    Alpha – I decided not to even look at conferences, because the ACC – the only relevant conference in this case, didn’t see that kind of success.

    You’re right – we see it happen all the time in the Big 10, Big 12 and Pac 10…but we just don’t see it in the ACC. You don’t really see it in the Big East either.

    And allow me to clarify a little – I think there’s a huge difference when a coach leaves a program in good shape after getting a job that is obviously a step up – than a “lateral” or worse job. Sendek’s departure was clearly a lateral or worse move, so I’m not giving a ton of weight to the prior appearances.

  5. buttPACKer 03/27/2009 at 11:54 AM #

    Alpha,

    A-FU*KING-MEN!!!

  6. Gene 03/27/2009 at 11:55 AM #

    Sean Miller is in his fifth season at Xavier and has made the NCAA four of those years, with an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 to his credit the past two years.

    Xavier was not a rebuilding job, when Miller was hired. They became one of the pre-eminent mid-majors in the nation. When they had David West (and I think the late Skip Prosser was still coaching them) they made the round of 8, in the NCAA’s. They haven’t looked back, in terms of success.

    Miller’s first year was salvaged by winning the A-10 tournament, but otherwise it was disappointing by Xavier standards.

    He’s kept the ball rolling and seems like a solid coach, but he didn’t build Xavier up to the level they are at.

    FWIW, Pete Gillen, who bombed at Virginia is still Xavier’s winningest coach from his 8 years there during the mid-1980’s to early 1990’s, before his assistant Prosser got promoted to the headcoaching job.

    And a team that had been to five straight NCAA tournaments, that had been in multiple ACC Tournament finals *was* a rebuilding job? Hold on before you answer, because if Sendek stayed, Werner and Wright among others would have come to Raleigh and thus the program never would have needed rebuilding. What I am trying to say is that there may have been more to Xavier than we think, but what is true is that they are an NCAA staple under Miller.

  7. waxhaw 03/27/2009 at 12:01 PM #

    I think a big part of the decision is who you can get. I think we should have our feelers out right now. If we can get a no brainer upper echelon coach, then now would not be too soon. However, I do think Lowe deserves another year.

    One other thing to consider. I think a lot of people are very nervous about giving Lowe a longer shot because of how long Sendek was given. I think Lowe should be looked at independently of Sendek’s situation.

  8. dirtwolf 03/27/2009 at 12:04 PM #

    True story.

    This past Sunday my family and I were having lunch with friends after church. My two friends are both sane Tarheel fans so there very easy to get along with and talk smack.

    However, one of the guys asked me (knowing that I am a fan of State and attended school there)”When was the last time State was in the sweet 16? 15 years ago?” I almost choked on my food. Now these are somewhat knowledgeable Heel fans. It was right then and there that we have become so completely irrelevant, that it breaks my heart. He seemed startled when I told him that it was only 5 years ago.

    When Sidney was hired I was quite skeptical, I still am and I don’t share the optimism that some on this blog and Pack Pride share. I want Sid to succeed, but I don’t see it happening regardless of recruiting classes, style of play, getting Herb’s recruits out of the program, etc.

    That being said I am a die hard Wolfpacker and have been since 1978 when Hawkeye Whitney played for the Pack.

  9. JeremyH 03/27/2009 at 12:24 PM #

    “Lorenzo Brown is a combo guard and is coming in next season. There’s a good chance he beats out Javi and Mays by December and starts PG.”

    I hope that LoBrown is in shape to start the season, because I don’t see him ever leaving the floor.

  10. Ed89 03/27/2009 at 12:26 PM #

    ^^^He seemed startled when I told him that it was only 5 years ago.

    Actually, 4 years ago. 2005. Before that, 1989. So once in past 20 years.

    I see a great day a comin’…

  11. Wolf-n-Atl 03/27/2009 at 12:32 PM #

    My question is, how is LF judging Lowe’s performance. Did he set an overall expectation for the program or does he look at each year. I could see him throwing out an excuse next year that Costner/Horner leaving early put us back 1 yr. This, however, should not be an excuse as everyone knew Costner leaving was a likely scenario.

    I am pulling for Lowe and hope that he succeeds, but I find it hard to believe that we will do much better next year.

    Let’s hope he pulls a rabbit out of hat with the remaining scholarship spots.

  12. Gene 03/27/2009 at 12:40 PM #

    And a team that had been to five straight NCAA tournaments, that had been in multiple ACC Tournament finals *was* a rebuilding job? Hold on before you answer, because if Sendek stayed, Werner and Wright among others would have come to Raleigh and thus the program never would have needed rebuilding. What I am trying to say is that there may have been more to Xavier than we think, but what is true is that they are an NCAA staple under Miller.

    I live in an area with three A-10 schools, so I follow the A-10 a bit because of the exposure it gets here, and there wasn’t a lot Miller had to tend with when he took over the job, with regards to losing recruits or players leaving the program early.

    Xavier expects to win or at least contend for the A-10 title every year and make the postseason. Anything less and the Xavier coach will be feeling the heat, from what I gather.

    Miller’s first year they were down, by Xavier standards, and only made the postseason by winning their tournament.

    It’s not a laid back mid-major job, where they are O.K. with down years.

    I honestly was surprised, when NCSU was ranked before Sid started his second year here. I thought it’d take a couple of years to get players back in the program, because of the attrition between coaching changes. Hopefully we have the players in place now to be a much improved team, because if we’re not good this year, I don’t see any reason the current coaching regime will be dramatically better in the future.

  13. wolf pack 03/27/2009 at 12:46 PM #

    I agree 100% with your post alpha.
    after one more year we should either have faith in sid or a new coach.
    as it goes now. sid make bad decisions with his subbing pattern…
    he let brandon “lazy” costner walk up and down the court all season-THIS IS THE SIGN A BAD COACH TO ME.
    you hustle or sit PERIOD!!
    i want transparency like my TOB has given us
    we are a performance based orgnanization-TOB
    can we have a performance based AD?

  14. buttPACKer 03/27/2009 at 12:51 PM #

    ^”I honestly was surprised, when NCSU was ranked before Sid started his second year here. I thought it’d take a couple of years to get players back in the program, because of the attrition between coaching changes. ”

    We were ranked PRE-SEASON, for about a week, until the FIRST game. . . Yeah, most of us had visions of greatness after the first year ACC Tourney Championship game. . . It, however, was merely illusion. That ACC Title game was the pinnacle of Sid’s career. The first game of the second season we stood on the edge of a precipice, then promptly plummeted into the abyss.

    Such is the Wolfpack condition.

    I’ve said it before, Prometheus knows not the suffering of a Wolfpack BB fan.

  15. Noah 03/27/2009 at 1:07 PM #

    I will concede, and he probably would too, but to repeat it ad nauseam every time we have a discussion on the merits of Sid’s coaching is getting old. Can anyone name a coach who didn’t bring in a few busts??? Big Lew had a medical issue and very well could have helped us the past 3 years. I saw him in the Red/White game that first year, and he would have played.

    What other things shall we scratch from the record? Losing to New Orleans? Hiring QJ? Blowing off the offseason?

  16. pakfanistan 03/27/2009 at 1:13 PM #

    What other things shall we scratch from the record? Losing to New Orleans? Hiring QJ? Blowing off the offseason?

    This typifies my beef with you. You’re all over the mistakes he’s made, and I appreciate the information, but more important to me, from your perspective, does it look like any of these are being rectified?

    I would tend toward yes, since Q is gone, and from what little I’ve heard, it sounds like the off season is more of a priority.

    I don’t care about what did happen, I care about what IS happening. NEWS MAN!

  17. PackWolf7 03/27/2009 at 1:14 PM #

    Fowler was not able to land a big name coach. Why do folks think he can now? And why would a guy like Sean Miller want to return to Raleigh under all that fan scrutiny and with the two premier programs up the road? AND, his dream job has to be Pitt. IMO, like it or not, we are stuck with Sid for at least another year, maybe two (compliments of Lee Fowler). I am not optimistic that Sid will turn the program around, and I am not optimistic that Fowler will have acquired enough svelte to land a solid college coach when the time comes for him to force Sid out, if he ever gets the guts.

    We will never compete with the Dooks and Holes, but I would at least like to see us compete with the Wakes, BC, MD, et al. I am realizing even more that life with Sendek was not that bad after all. He did compete with those teams when with the Pack, and he was probably a recruit away from cracking the sweet 16 this year with AS. Not too shabby. To a large extent, the State fan base brought the current situation on itself by running Herb off. It will be years before the program can get back to competing in the ACC, other than Dook and the Holes. We can never expect to rise to their level. That is just a fact of life.

  18. Alpha Wolf 03/27/2009 at 1:16 PM #

    I’ve said it before, Prometheus knows not the suffering of a Wolfpack BB fan.

    No, that’s the provenance of Job.

    To a large extent, the State fan base brought the current situation on itself by running Herb off.

    Run off after he was asked back not only by the AD but also by the big donors.

    We will never compete with the [Dukes] and [UNCs]

    Especially as long as we believe it. Competing with THEM would indeed be a ten year job, but I believe you can never start a monumental task by saying it cannot be done. That’s called failing before you even try.

  19. pakfanistan 03/27/2009 at 1:17 PM #

    And why would a guy like Sean Miller want to return to Raleigh under all that fan scrutiny and with the two premier programs up the road? AND, his dream job has to be Pitt.

    This part is easy. If we want to keep Miller away from Pitt, we just call up Pitt and point to Lowe and Drexler and say, “See how hiring an alum works out????”

    Then he’ll be ours for the taking.

  20. LRM 03/27/2009 at 1:19 PM #

    I have a fundamental problem with evaluating a coach based primarily upon his recruiting ability, especially when he has yet to show even a remote understanding of the college game. Here’s my point:

    Say Sid lands Wall and Brown and whoever else — is he all the sudden a better coach because of it? Or does he just have better players? I’m just using Wall as an example to make my point (Wall = Recruit X). Say John Wall comes to State and “saves” Sid’s job, much like Wilkins did for Herb, but what happens after next season when Wall is gone and we have no foundation to build on, much like after Hickson last season? Do we really want a coach that will need to rely on a top recruiting class every year just to win, or would we better served to find a guy that can find good recruits and put the foundation in place to still win in those seasons marred by injuries or low-rated recruiting classes?

  21. ClassOf91 03/27/2009 at 1:22 PM #

    In regards to Sean Miller, you have to wonder how long Jamie Dixon will be at Pitt. His name is being thrown around as a possibility for the Zona job. If the Pitt job becomes available, you have to believe Miller would be an excellent fit.

    (looks like I got beat to it while I was composing the msg)

  22. JasonP 03/27/2009 at 1:22 PM #

    “We will never compete with the Dooks and Holes”

    Garbage.

    My advice to you would be to take all of your Pack para’fan’alia (if you have any) and burn/give/throw it away and never come back to the tent.

  23. Wolf Dog 03/27/2009 at 1:23 PM #

    We have wasted no scholarships.

    Wolfpack Club Member question to BBall assistant coach. “Why did we waste scholarships on Johnson, etc?”

    Asst BBall Coach Answer: name one instance when we have not had a scholarship available to a recruit? Zero Right? We’ve wasted nothing?”

    I was there and the coach was right! With only 6 scholarship players they could take a few risks cause you cant give out but so many scholarships each yr, plus players leave, graduate early, get injured, or get other scholarships and dont have to use a Bball scholarship, etc.

  24. Noah 03/27/2009 at 1:27 PM #

    This typifies my beef with you. You’re all over the mistakes he’s made, and I appreciate the information, but more important to me, from your perspective, does it look like any of these are being rectified?

    I’d argue that making such mistakes is a sign that you’ve made an enormous error in judgement when you hired this guy.

  25. Noah 03/27/2009 at 1:28 PM #

    We have wasted no scholarships.

    Wolfpack Club Member question to BBall assistant coach. “Why did we waste scholarships on Johnson, etc?”

    Asst BBall Coach Answer: name one instance when we have not had a scholarship available to a recruit? Zero Right? We’ve wasted nothing?”

    I was there and the coach was right! With only 6 scholarship players they could take a few risks cause you cant give out but so many scholarships each yr, plus players leave, graduate early, get injured, or get other scholarships and dont have to use a Bball scholarship, etc.

    Did that ACTUALLY get said? If so, the problem is far, far worse than we thought. It shows that Lowe never thought for a second that he might actually find a recruit in the next four years that was more of a contributor than the first three that he brought in.

1 2 3 4 … 8

Leave a Reply