On the Cheap: NC State’s Athletic Budget vs. the ACC

AD & Department Fans General NC State Administration Non-Revenue53

Sometimes it helps to see things in black and white, spreadsheet style.  From Forbes.com, here’s a listing of ACC school athletic department budgets and the salaries of each Athletic Director:

=================  ATLANTIC COAST CONFERENCE  =================
---------------------------------------------------------------
              Athletic         Yrs at  No. of  Dept. Guaranteed
School        Director         School  Teams   Budget  Base
---------------------------------------------------------------
Georgia Tech  Dan Radakovich      3      17    $56.0M  $560,000
Clemson       Terry Don Phillips  6      19    $53.2M  $418,000
Maryland      Deborah Yow        15      27    $61.0M  $382,575
Florida State Randy Spetman       1      17    $51.0M  $350,000
Virginia Tech Jim Weaver         12      21    $53.5M  $345,211
Virginia      Craig Littlepage    8      25    $56.2M  $320,000
N. Carolina   Dick Baddour       12      28    $61.4M  $295,000
NC State      Lee Fowler          9      23    $39.0M  $280,000
---------------------------------------------------------------
ACC Average                       8      22    $53.9M  $368,848
---------------------------------------------------------------
(apparently private schools Miami, Duke and BC do not report their numbers)

Excluding NC State, each ACC team budgets about $56.04 Million on the average.  NC State, at $39 Million, runs its athletics at a rate of roughly 70% of the rest of the conference.  An easy counter-argument would be that NC State fields fewer teams, but as you can see, there are four schools (GT, Clemson, FSU, VT) that have higher athletic budgets with fewer teams than NC State.

We posted these numbers before, but let’s once again look at the Director’s Cup Standings:

ACC:
4. UNC
5. Wake Forest
9. Maryland
11. UVA
15. FSU
18. Duke
27. BC
63. VT
68. Clemson
91. NC State
93. GT (has a new AD)
94. Miami (has a new AD)

Interesting, and it seems that there is a correllation at least in our case: we’re getting what we pay for.  While it is true that NC State raises far fewer dollars than UNC, it outraises Duke:

With 28 varsity sports, [UNC] is one of the country’s largest athletic programs. It raised $51 million in pledges or donations for athletics last year, alone.Among other ACC schools, North Carolina State University placed 14th on the list, with more than $27 million in donations received last year. Duke placed 17th, with nearly $25.5 million.

Among other ACC schools, North Carolina State University placed 14th on the list, with more than $27 million in donations received last year. Duke placed 17th, with nearly $25.5 million.

Here’s an older table that shows a good picture of ACC booster clubs’ fundraising:

Atlantic Coast Conference
 
Athletics 
donations 
in 2006
 
Overall rank 
in 
athletics 
donations
 
Amount raised 
in capital 
campaigns
for athletics 
in 
past 5 years
 
Goal of 
current 
capital 
campaign 
for 
athletics
 
Full-time 
athletics 
fund 
raisers
 
UNC
 
$51,000,000
 
1
 
$230,000,000
 
--
 
20
 
UVA
 
$45,240,112
 
2
 
$188,100,000
 
--
 
19
 
FSU
 
$29,100,000
 
11
 
$155,300,000
 
$110,000,000
 
6
 
NCSU
 
$27,254,723
 
14
 
$125,625,000
 
--
 
16
 
Duke
 
$25,495,000
 
17
 
$150,000,000
 
--
 
15
 
GT
 
$25,000,000
 
18
 
--
 
$125,000,000
 
8
 
VT
 
$23,680,688
 
19
 
$22,300,000
 
--
 
6
 
Clemson
 
$23,160,000
 
22
 
$27,000,000
 
--
 
6
 
Miami
 
$19,200,000
 
29
 
$63,000,000
 
$70,000,000
 
9
 
BC
 
$19,000,000
 
31
 
$64,000,000
 
--
 
8
 
Wake Forest
 
$12,692,782
 
46
 
$63,000,000
 
$87,000,000
 
9
 
Maryland
 
--
 
--
 
--
 
--

the numbers seem to speak for themselves.

UPDATE 1: Daily Update adds some more numbers

Here are some more numbers.

  • -NC State supporters ranked 9th among BCS programs in annual donations in 2006.
  • -NC State supporters ranked 14th among BCS programs in capital donations the five years prior to 2006.
  • -NC State fans have sold out Carter Finley for 8 consecutive seasons despite the program hitting an almost half century low point in 2006 with a 3-9 record. You have to go all the way back to 1959 (1-9, .100) to find an NC State football team with a worse overall winning percentage.
  • -Actual attendance (not visual estimates like in Chapel Hill) has essentially been at 100% capacity since the 2000 football season. Here are the numbers for 2008.
  • -NC State fans have ranked #7, #17, #20, #19, #16, #13, #17, #18, #16 in basketball attendance since the 2000 season. In 2008, NC State fans averaged 15,043 which was the 2nd highest total in the history of the program despite the team not making the post-season.
  • How happy would NC State fans be if the basketball program had half that number of top 20 finishes?
  • -NC State fans made the Wolfpack Club one of five booster organizations in the country to exceed 20,000 members this year.
  • -In the 2007/2008 athletic year, NC State fans set school records in football tickets sold (37,500), revenue from football tickets sold ($10.75 million), and revenue from basketball tickets sold ($5.6 million).
  • -Additionally, NC State fans donated the second highest total in our history ($25.4 million). This was a combination of an all-time high in annual donations ($10.0 million), the 2nd highest total in capital giving ($13.7 million), and what appears to be an all-time high in endowment giving ($1.8 million).\

UPDATE 2: NC State Basketball Ranked 13th Most Valuable Program

Undoubtedly, the sweetheart deal NC State has with the RBC Center has a lot to do with this ranking, but one can see the disparity between the results on the court (RPI ranking in the 90s) versus the rankings on the ledger sheet for NC State hoops:

Forbes.com

NC State’s basketball program, ranked 13th, is worth $13.6 million. With expenses of only $3.1 million, the lowest of any team on our list, the NC State Wolfpack earned a profit of $7.9 million last season. In his first year with the Wolfpack, former NBA head coach Sidney Lowe led his alma mater to victories over Duke, North Carolina and Wake Forest University, marking the first time in four years that NC State beat all three in-state opponents during the same season.

AD & Department Fans General NC State Administration Non-Revenue

53 Responses to On the Cheap: NC State’s Athletic Budget vs. the ACC

  1. wolfonthehill 02/10/2009 at 10:21 AM #

    Utter mismanagement. Period.

  2. wufpup76 02/10/2009 at 10:25 AM #

    Where is all this money that we raise going?

    I wonder …

    We budget 40 million (not even) … this feels like baseball owners to me … some of the small market guys who pocket all of the luxury tax sharing revenue + whatever they get at the gate and then set a team budget at $10 million

    NC State … really cheap … the school is truly getting what it pays for … I don’t think the fans/alumin are getting a lot of bang for their donation bucks, but the school seems ok with that

    Profit-based organization with no responsibility to it’s shareholders (fans/alumni/donors – of which I’m all three)

    Great.

  3. SaccoV 02/10/2009 at 10:28 AM #

    Again, I see two things here. 1) NC State is run by a collection of dimwits who couldn’t run a lemonade stand with any competence, and 2) Wake Forest’s AD should be hired RIGHT NOW by our department. Also, Alpha, we should check out how App State is doing WITH an NC State alum as its AD.

  4. BJD95 02/10/2009 at 10:28 AM #

    As I’ve said before, we are very lucky that Tom O’Brien isn’t 5-10 years younger. I’m certain we will never pay him what he’s worth.

    Very depressing. With the LTR concept firmly established, they can kick sand in our eyes without consequence – which they are doing and will continue to do.

  5. RSP123 02/10/2009 at 10:37 AM #

    Quite simply, in the business world this would not cut it.
    I wish I could say that Fowler’s salary(when compared to other ADs)is based on performance, but when you see that Baddour gets only $15,000.00 more – you cannot make that argument. My question is this? How many of our heavy hitters in the Wolpack Club are truly aware of this “bottom line”? Also, does our administration really realize the futility (financial and competitiveness) of our athletic department when compared to the other schools? Willis Casey was known for running a tight ship, but his teams and
    coaches were competitive! Surely someone in power can see this and begin the move for change in leadership!

  6. FullMoonRising 02/10/2009 at 10:47 AM #

    Can anyone explain where the money for our budget comes from and who gets to decide how much the athletics department is allowed to have? It’s easy to see that we spend a lot less and wonder why, but there must be a reason for it.

    Is the budget for NCSU determined by the UNC Board of Governors and if so, what is the basis for their determination? I believe that NCSU has more students than any other school in the state and so it should at least have a budget comparable to UNC and if so, then are we allotting more of our money to other programs such as building Centennial Campus instead of athletics?

  7. Gene 02/10/2009 at 10:55 AM #

    If I have time I’ll try to find out the profit of individual programs. We are among the most profitable programs in the country, i.e. money in, less money out, even though we don’t have the large cash infusions schools like Texas or Michigan have from their football programs.

    Things could be worse. We could be financially mismanaged, losing money every year, and still suck.

  8. wufpup76 02/10/2009 at 11:01 AM #

    I’m very curious to understand why the school’s budget is so much lower than the other listed schools as well …

    Almost $20 million under in most of the cases … there have to be reasons for it – so what gives?

  9. choppack1 02/10/2009 at 11:04 AM #

    This is interesting stuff. As far as this “not cutting it” in the business world, that’s simply not true. NC State is probably perfectly happy raising lots of money (revenues) and operating at a lower cost structure.

    I’ll throw at my Noah story. I remember seeing the baseball special on PBS about the old owner of the Boston Red Sox. He didn’t care one bit about wins or losses. He wanted just enough money to fund his true love – theater. Ideally, his team would be decent enough to fill the stands. He’d trade his good players for cash. I think he got the rights to some play for trading Babe Ruth.

    To me, that’s our athletic department in a nutshell w/ one exception. It was obvious why this dufus wanted the money – to fund his true love of “theater” – what in the heck is our athletic department’s motive?

    It begs a couple of questions:
    1) Is our athletic department operating at a tremendous profit or are the others operating w/ tremendous losses? Or, are both questions true?

    2) Since our “giving” is above average – why is our spending significantly below average?

    3) If we do make money, where do the profits go?

    4) We’ve obviosly taken some serious steps to upgrade our facilities, once again, how are we below the budgets of the other athletic departments?

  10. Alpha Wolf 02/10/2009 at 11:09 AM #

    ^ “No No Nanette” was the name of the play. God only knows why I remember that but had to put in an Outlook reminder to not let me forget my Dad’s birthday.

  11. RSP123 02/10/2009 at 11:11 AM #

    Chop – point taken. I was basing my statement on the performance of our coaches/teams based on amount of money being received versus amount of money being spent. I certainly agree from a business standpoint in regards to loss and profit. But, I cannot forget also “you have to spend money to make money.”

  12. Pack Leader 02/10/2009 at 11:14 AM #

    FullMoonRising-

    “Is the budget for NCSU determined by the UNC Board of Governors and if so, what is the basis for their determination?

    I have said this before my uncle is on the UNC BOG so I have some facts to base these statements on. Only certin budgets get approved by the UNC BOG. Some budgets can bypass the BOG and go directly into production (Unfortunatley I dont know what the criteria is to need approval by BOG vs being able to approve projects themselves). The BOG can only approve or disapprove what the university sends to the office, nothing more nothing less. I know FOR A FACT certin projects and been completed without the BOG even double checking the numbers to make sure its a viable option. I know The BOG approved the Calipari offer of 2mil a year w/o even knowing if he would accept. I also know the BOG approved the doubling of Mary Easly’s Salary even though it was a title change, nothing more, nothing less. But I have been told over the last 3 years slowly they can see a change in less money towards athletic depts and more toward research and Devlopment & Building restructuring Ex. I have heard soon Lee Sullivan and few other high rise dorms will be gutted and Fixed up. This will take a HUGE chunk of dontations although will improve campus life. PROS AND CONS

  13. Sam92 02/10/2009 at 11:23 AM #

    fullmoonrising you are asking the right questions – what is the relationship between dept. budget and athletic donations, are they independent (additive?) or do the donations become part of the budget?

    how much of the budget is a state allocation, and how does ours compare with UNC’s correlative amount? does the state specifically allocate money to athletics, or is that done by the university out of a pool of money available, but not necessarily required, for that purpose?

    knowing the answers to those questions would make it possible to assign responsibility, particularly to Lee Fowler – is the low budget a sign of his failings or an indication that he’s not on a level playing field with other AD’s?

  14. Alpha Wolf 02/10/2009 at 11:29 AM #

    ^ Here’s a partial answer to your question:

    Technician Online: Fowler Wants More Support From Student Fees (9/28/08)

    With the student fee committee scheduled to meet Oct. 2, the Athletics Department is requesting an increase of $55 in funding from student fees. According to Athletics Director Lee Fowler, the University is last among those in the UNC system in allocating student fees to athletics. Currently, the Athletics Department’s portion of fees is $195, while UNC-Chapel Hill allocates $250 and East Carolina has close to $500.

    “We’re by far the lowest in the system,” Fowler said. “We have to be competitive with [UNC-] Chapel Hill, who’s right above us. We’re just trying to equal them. We’re not trying to get to what the rest of them have. We know we can produce more revenue from our football and basketball games than the other schools do. Our conference affiliation brings in more money than other schools do. We’re not upset about what they’re getting, we’re just trying to get what UNC has.”

    The Athletics Department is splitting its request into two categories—operating costs and capital improvements. Fowler said $25 of the proposed increase would go to the operating costs of non-revenue sports. Currently, 8.5 percent of the departments $43 million operating budget is funded by student fees. $30 would be used to generate $11.5 million in borrowed money for facilities improvements.

    Fowler said these improvements would include a new playing surface and renovation to the east stands and concourse in Carter-Finley Stadium, renovation of the outdoor tennis facility, a press box and a new entrance to the N.C. State Soccer Stadium, a video scoreboard for Doak Field and a video scoreboard for Reynolds Coliseum. He said these improvements are necessary to keep up with N.C. State’s rivals.

    “I just like to be on a level playing field with UNC, so that’s why I think it’s very important to us,” Fowler said. “We’re supposed to compete with them, but they’ve had [greater support from student fees] for three or four years now. They’ve been able to get a lot of things done in the last three or four years that we have not been able to.”

    I don’t know the results of the vote, perhaps a student or Trout can fill in that part.

  15. Astral Rain 02/10/2009 at 11:48 AM #

    We’d probably be better off if we were losing money- cause then we’d get someone better in.

  16. SaccoV 02/10/2009 at 11:50 AM #

    Choppack1 and Alpha, the owner of the Red Sox back then was Harry Frazee, and “No, No Nannette” was his ONLY broadway hit. He sold four other hall-of-famers to buy other shows, all of which tanked. I wish we at least had the “Curse of the Babe” to put on Fowler’s lakehouse lawn. At least, that way someone outside of this blog would take notice of his worthlessness.

  17. Pack Leader 02/10/2009 at 11:52 AM #

    “We’re supposed to compete with them, but they’ve had [greater support from student fees] for three or four years now. They’ve been able to get a lot of things done in the last three or four years that we have not been able to.”

    First of all NCSU has almost 13,000 more students than unc and almost 20,000 more than duke so if they decide to increase student fees, wouldnt it make sence to increase the % per student not take their average per student and increase it the same. in other words if unc wants to make 2 million more dollars then it has to charge each student $200 (these numbers are for the example) so if NCSU needs 2 million more, then we should beable to use our size to our advantage and only charge $110 per student. Somehow i dont feel we are consulting our math dept on our plans……

  18. Alpha Wolf 02/10/2009 at 11:55 AM #

    ^ Or our Accounting School.

    What I would give to send H. A. Petree over there to lecture Fowler. “Hell, even a left-handed orangutan could run this department!”

  19. choppack1 02/10/2009 at 11:56 AM #

    Thanks Sacco and Alpha!

    Anyone know the answer to my questions:

    1) Is our athletic department operating at a tremendous profit or are the others operating w/ tremendous losses? Or, are both questions true?

    2) Since our “giving” is above average – why is our spending significantly below average?

    3) If we do make money, where do the profits go?

  20. grouchomarx 02/10/2009 at 11:59 AM #

    Need to see each school’s total dept revenue(ticket receipts,broadcast moneys,donations,rights fees, etc.) vs. budget/actual expense to truely judge performance.

    I suspect NC State is making a huge profit, which is why Fowler is secure and no one wants to change the status quo. I also suspect that we don’t generate nearly the revenue of UNX or FSU, as an example.

    If this dept. was being run like a business that wanted to succeed(i.e. grow), the admistration should be asking what can be done to increase revenue(i.e. winning programs that generate more ticket, rights fees and marketing revenue). Like change coaches or the AD.

    But we all know thats not the case. As long as we’re in the black, all is well.

  21. WolftownVA81 02/10/2009 at 12:40 PM #

    So if I read these charts correctly, we rake in more donations than 7 other ACC schools. Shouldn’t we be better across the board than at least these same seven schools? Instead, we’re only ahead of two in the director’s cup standings. As contributors, we definately are not getting our money’s worth.

  22. Clarksa 02/10/2009 at 12:42 PM #

    ^lets not forget that our administration and bigger alumni are also fine with the coaches we have as along as they are not a public embarrassment (red shoes, scandles , sunglasses, selling complimentary shoes, etc)…so if NC State is making money, and no one is getting in trouble, then they are happy.

  23. levelsixtyfour 02/10/2009 at 12:43 PM #

    Also of interest concerning basketball:

    Forbes Sports Values
    The Most Valuable College Basketball Teams
    http://tinyurl.com/2ehc97

    “The North Carolina Tar Heels basketball team is the most valuable in the country, worth $26 million.”

    “Duke is the fifth most valuable team, worth $22.6 million.”

    “NC State’s basketball program, ranked 13th, is worth $13.6 million. With expenses of only $3.1 million, the lowest of any team on our list, the NC State Wolfpack earned a profit of $7.9 million last season.”

    Ranked behind us at number 14? UCLA.

  24. LRM 02/10/2009 at 12:44 PM #

    There appears to be a gross misunderstanding of free market economics in the athletic department as well. I just got an email from GoPack about $25 tickets available for tomorrow night’s game. You didn’t have to take a single grad-level applied macroeconomics course like I did to see the problem with a $25 ticket to see State play.

  25. WolftownVA81 02/10/2009 at 12:48 PM #

    Another thought just occurred to me. NCSU takes in more money and spends less than all the other schools and, the donnor’s keep giving in spite of a crappy product. Shear Genius! I have not given Fowler the credit he is due. Rather than seeing him as Jed Clamped, I’m getting more of a George C. Scott image from the Flim Flam Man.

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