Amid woes, comparing behaviors that feed NC State’s failures become more clear

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Here’s an article that you just can’t ignore – Amid woes, U.Va. AD needs to act

Before we get going here… please allow me to remind you that the University of Virginia has one of the best overall Athletics programs in the entire country. It isn’t like they struggle as a department nor as a functional organization.

They have clear vision and road maps to help them achieve their goals. At the beginning of this decade the University of Virginia spent significant time and money producing a detailed strategic plan that included goals for performance and championships for their Athletics Department. Not only did they build a 57 page strategic plan, they had the gumption to post it to various University websites and share it with their stakeholders. (Link)

This organizational professionalism has helped lead the Cavaliers department to consistent top twenty finishes in the the annual Directors Cup competition.

As evidenced by the graphs below (built before athletics competition of this academic year), Virginia has clearly enjoyed a more successful overall Athletics program than NC State in recent years. The graphs compare ACC winning percentages and conference finishes of ACC institutions during Lee Fowler’s tenure as AD for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes. The stats do not include some sports where Virginia is traditionally strong but where State does not have a program (lacrosse, field hockey, rowing) or non-ACC sports.

Average ACC Ranking(for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 3.38
2. Florida St – 3.74
3. Virginia – 4.91
4. Georgia Tech – 5.47
5. Clemson – 5.67
6. Duke – 5.75
7. NC State – 6.52
8. Wake Forest – 6.65
9. Virginia Tech – 6.85
10. Maryland – 7.57
11. Miami – 7.82
12. Boston College – 9.00

acc-avg-ranking.JPG

ACC Championships (for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 36
2. Duke – 29
3. Florida St – 24
4. Virginia – 19
5. NC State – 14
6. Georgia Tech – 13
7. Clemson – 11
8. Virginia Tech – 9
9. Maryland – 8
10. Miami – 5
11. Wake Forest – 3
12. Boston College – 1

acc-titles.JPG

ACC Championship Sports (for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 15
2. Duke – 10
3. Florida St – 9
4. Clemson – 7
t5. Georgia Tech – 6
t5. Maryland – 6
t5. Virginia – 6
8. Virginia Tech – 5
9. NC State – 4
t10. Miami – 3
t10. Wake Forest – 3
12. Boston College – 1

acc-title-sports.JPG

Honest to God…I don’t even know where to start. This conversation can go in a million directions.

(1) We could discuss the empathetic, fan-friendly perspective of an Athletics Director who publicly prioritizes winning and who doesn’t criticize his own fans.

“You have made significant investments in our program and I recognize that you expect results,” Littlepage told donors via e-mail. “As the Athletics Director I expect results as well. I realize that many fans are frustrated and I want to make sure you know that I am frustrated as well. … Improvements in football and men’s basketball are a priority.”

(2) We could discuss the rest of the world’s (accurately) negative perspective of NC State’s Athletics Department.

Among the ACC’s 12 schools, name one with deeper troubles in its money-making sports – Boston College, Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Miami, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Wake Forest clearly are superior.

The only remotely comparable straits are at North Carolina State, where Tom O’Brien’s football program is slowly progressing from the mess he inherited from Chuck Amato, while Sidney Lowe’s basketball program is declining.

But even the Wolfpack is ahead of the last-place Cavaliers this basketball season. Wednesday marked the fourth time since the New Year that Virginia has trailed by at least 20 points during the first half, the third at home.

Ahh yes. “Even the Wolfpack”

(3) We could discuss the obvious contrast to NC State’s leadership where Virginia is having this crisis-conversation amid their woes because The last academic year in which Virginia’s football and men’s basketball teams were sub-.500 was 1976-77.

ONE YEAR! ONE YEAR in the last 33 years where both revenue-generating sports were below .500. At friggin Virginia. How many years just under the leadership of NC State’s current administration has that been the case in Raleigh (despite our premiere new ‘fuhcilities’ (that have been finished before Virginia’s upgrades).

(4) Or…we could discuss how the Virginia media is actually writing stories calling for improvement to the current situation. Could you imagine? Could you imagine if anyone in our local media FINALLY ignored their personal relationships with Lee Fowler and their fear of the wrath of Annabelle Vaughn Myers? Could you imagine if anyone actually placed their journalistic integrity and responsibilities ahead of their the potential political fallout and the negative impact to ‘access’ within the NC State Athletics program and started judging the NC State athletics program in the media?

We can imagine. They may become as ‘popular’ in west Raleigh as SFN!

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95 Responses to Amid woes, comparing behaviors that feed NC State’s failures become more clear

  1. StateFans 02/06/2009 at 3:09 PM #

    I disagree that BSIE’s point is a fair one. Nor do I agree with those paramaters being thrown out as the criteria. For example, Ron Wellman wouldn’t have fit those criteria BEFORE he became the best Athletics Director in the country.

    Hell..why should any person on this board know who the next Athletics Director should be? Why should anyone have a remote clue?!

    I would posit THAT thinking is exactly what is wrong with NC State. Why would ANYONE necessarily think that they would just happen to know the best candidates for that job when almost nobody can name more than a half dozen current ADs throughout the country?

    Let me be the first to tell you — if it ain’t Charlie Cobb, Ray Tanner or Bobby Purcell then nobody is going to have a clue…and that is how it SHOULD BE. NOBODY SHOULD HAVE A CLUE.

    Why would the candidate pool be so limited?

    I’m serious.

    Why not hire a former Partner from Accenture or Bain or Boston Consulting?

    Why not hire a former high-flier from a private equity shop that has created billions of dollars of value in multiple ventures?

    Why not hire a former Managing Director from Goldman Sachs?

    Why not hire an SVP or EVP from General Electric or some other company renowned for its leadership prowess?

    Why in the world does the candidate have to necessarily be someone who currently has the characteristics that BSIE sarcastically crafted when Indiana University just hired a high-powered attorney OVER our very own Lee Fowler who is approaching double digits

  2. Classof89 02/06/2009 at 3:21 PM #

    ^^
    Probably going to be plenty of guys from aforementioned investment banks and other high-falutin’ financial jobs hitting the streets pretty soon…its a hirer’s market! 😉

  3. choppack1 02/06/2009 at 3:26 PM #

    SFN – One thing I that I believe you look at when you make any kind major decision effecting is avoiding negative unintended consequences. And frankly, BSIE articulated the ONLY concern I have at this point.

    I could care less if the rest of our coaches are rubbed the wrong way w/ this hire. However, if you are a fan of TOB – then hiring someone whom he gets along w/ should at least be a consideration in the hiring process. It’s kind of like Duke’s search for an AD – there was pretty much one rule, don’t piss off Coach K w/ the hire. Guess what – I’m OK w/ that – because let’s face it – the AD position CAN be a pie job, but being a great coach certainly is not.

    And although he’s had some success, I wouldn’t want BC’s AD. (This is what I mean by an egoist.) I want some guy who is perfectly content to operate in the shadows, keep our good coaches happy, make our bad ones uncomfortable and has excellent judgement and decision making abilities. And like SFN – I don’t really care who it is – I just want someone smart, ethical, and competent w/ a 21st Century outlook. FWIW, I think Lee is the classic “good ole boy”/”bureacrat”. He’s probably adept at working his kind of room and knowing the right people to show attention to…he seems to operate by keeping those around him “happy”. However, his customer service acumen and PR abilities are zilch.

  4. whitefang 02/06/2009 at 4:32 PM #

    Put TOB be on the “hire the new NCSU AD committee” if there ever is one. There won’t be one of course.

  5. BAC79 02/06/2009 at 4:40 PM #

    “There won’t be one of course.”

    Exactly the point. If we, whoever the heck we is, could bring the guns to bear resulting in LF being fired, we would have done it by now. This whole discussion is academic unless the money stops flowing and the BOT is forced to act.

    By the way, lets all email the AD office and request a copy of the NCSU
    detailed strategic plan that surely includes goals for performance and championships for our Athletics Department. Oh we don’t have one. Imagine that.

    Change is all about taking risks. After all, the greatest risk in life is not taking one. Should we therefore not demand new leadership for fear that it may not work out and result in unintended consequences. I think not. Lets swing for the fence and if we do it the right way, we might in fact hit a home run.

    Ponder the following quote from one of my all time heroes, Theodore Roosevelt:

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

  6. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 5:02 PM #

    I think this thread is about a lot more than just singling out Lee Fowler / the AD position

    When it comes to the Wolfpack my soul is crushed and my spirit just limps along … (slightly overdramatic)

    I agree that this discussion may be academic / moot …

    Without thorough and resolute changes both in/from the leadership and the culture at NC State I don’t know what else there is to say or do

    Like stated previously, we – the common fans, don’t really matter and theres not a whole lot we can do about it

    At this point winning a conference title in either football or basketball would probably be looked upon as a lucky fluke – not something to be sustained nor repeated over a long period of time …

    Sure, a conference title would brighten up the place for a while and perhaps change some perceptions and attitudes … But at the end of the day the same people who helped put us in the situation we are currently in now would still be in charge … How’s that for faith and optimism?

  7. Gene 02/06/2009 at 5:05 PM #

    Not to mention the fact of what an awful owner Sterling has been.

    Whatever few articles I’ve read about Sterling indicate he is happy with the product on the court, as long as the Clippers are turning a profit for him.

    In comparing NCSU to the Clippers, as an earlier poster did, and saying NCSU is a failure, I wanted to point out from the Clippers ownership perspective success and failure are not direclty linked to wins / losses.

    Even in college athletics, success and failure aren’t always directly linked to wins and losses. You can have, what are perceived to be poorly run programs, like Huggins at Cincinnati, Tarkanian, anywhere he went, and Richardson at Arkansas, who all have lots of success winning, but don’t do so well with regards to graduation rates and other aspects of college athletics.

    For all the losing Les Robinson endured, he was hired to do two things (1) improve graduation rates in men’s basketball and (2) win. He did the first thing very well, which is one reason he got the AD job after resiging as basketball coach, though his won / loss record wasn’t so hot.

    What’s your point? We should be thankful that NC State is so successful at taking our money and turning out sh*t products?

    As fans, we should not be greatful for not having lots of wins. I’m just saying managements objectives and the fans are not always the same.

    The people running the show DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE WINNING A PRIORITY.

    They can emphasize the academic integrity of their athletics program, like Northwestern, for example. They can turn a blind eye towards winning, as long as their revenue streams are secure. They can make other things a priority, which I can’t think of at the moment.

    To say the Clippers don’t meet fans objectives (if they even have a fanbase) with regards to wins / losses is one thing, but to say they are poorly run is another, since it depends on whose point of view you are looking at it from.

    The same goes with college athletics, including NCSU’s athletics department, which may have a different set of criteria for success or keeping a coach employed than what fans expect.

    What we desperately need is a way to merge the fans and the departments desires, instead of having them going off in different directions.

    How do we get the Athletics Department to share our desires? I don’t know.

    Maybe a mass sit-in at their offices would get their attention and force them to listen. Maybe finding out where Wendell Murphy lives and staging a protest across the street from his home, so he gets the message and throws his “weight” around to change things.

    Who knows, but clearly to just say we are poorly run because of wins and losses, is only looking at the athletics department from one point of view (though a very important point of view).

  8. BJD95 02/06/2009 at 5:05 PM #

    The above TR quote pretty aptly describes the toil that has built Clemson into a basketball power.

  9. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 5:14 PM #

    ^Fair enough, Gene.

    I get your point. Although it hasn’t been stated publicly, it’s hard to imagine that the leadership at NC State cares about athletics performance as long as they are raking in money. They especially don’t care what we (the fans, alumni) think – b/c we keep giving them money.

    I think that most of us agree that we (the fans, alumni) are dissatisfied with what NC State chooses to accept in terms of athletics performance. As for what to do about it …

  10. BJD95 02/06/2009 at 5:28 PM #

    It’s true – there are different points of emphasis for sports. Some view graduation rates and academic matters as primary, and winning as the “cherry on the top.” I would reverse those, although I think it’s a false choice. I would rather be Memphis than Vanderbilt, but those aren’t the only two options.

    What I really hate about what has happened to NC State in the LTR era (and I didn’t see it coming) is that it means that winning and making money no longer go together. Wins and losses have little impact on the immediate bottom line. That takes a huge chunk out of the incentive to win, since the administration would have to value it outside of financial advantages for the larger university.

    So you have what we have now. People who don’t care much about athletics doing as much harm as anti-athletic crusaders (the Monteith/Turner access of evil – who did want State to be Vandy as a matter of principle). All things being equal, they would prefer to win, but they have no real stake in it because it doesn’t choke off revenue to fail.

    Thus, you have to be embarrassingly bad like the former volleyball coach, or both bad and a complete asshole to people within the power structure like Amato. Otherwise, you’ll never get fired or be pressured to win more.

  11. old13 02/06/2009 at 6:15 PM #

    So, can anybody answer my question: Is there a significant number of Wolfpackers who seriously care about vastly improving Wolfpack athletics, or do most just not care?

  12. redfred2 02/06/2009 at 6:16 PM #

    “…knowing that the compounding of those losses and the continual gains made by neighboring schools who have no more innate right to their successes as my school does only serves to deepen my sense of loathing and worthlessness.”

    That is powerful stuff!!!, and right on the nose Sacco V.

    I guess what gets to me the most is that just two or three years ago, there WERE tons and tons of NC State fans who seemed almost blissful with the eternal state of a flat line________…, as far as the BB program went. It now appears that alot of those exact same folks who were thinking that a BB program, after spending two entire decades in the shadows, and with absolutely nothing to brag about whatsoever, that somehow, that BB program is going to take a sudden upturn, or at least keep it’s same level of mediocrity without any disruptions at all.

    Did ANY of you folks happen to notice the response that NC State’s administration received from the college BB coaching ranks? Do any of you honestly believe that the perception of NC State’s BB program was on the upswing in ANY of the minds of the HS BB player’s available out there?

    There is no denying that we’ve taken a steep little drop off here of late, and it’s due to more than just ONE factor, as many of you are implying. But, there is also no denying that we WERE ALREADY on our way down. We WERE NOT keeping up or doing what anyone should have expected from a university that was once T-H-E force in college BB in this region or simply what most people/fans SHOULD expect out the largest university in the state. Then adding to that decline was the foolish way that NC STATE UNIVERSITY ALLOWED ITSELF to be represented during a major event such as a head coaching change, and what do you expect? That NC State’s BB program would somehow just “rebound” up out of the shadows and instantly spring back to life, or at least back into it’s comatose level of comfortable mediocrity, and without ever skipping a beat???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Depending on how you chose to look at it, whether it’s good or bad, we’re in the ACC, and it is certainly not because of ANYTHING that ANYONE has accomplished in Raleigh over the past two decades.

  13. Wufpacker 02/06/2009 at 7:04 PM #

    While far from the only problem, LTRs have made it such that Joe average fan was forced to lay out an inordinate amount of money in order to continue to be fans. They (we) were sold a bill of goods, and laid their money down. Now, in the face of diminishing returns in terms of wins, championships, etc. they are forced to decide if losing that investment is worth it.

    Until the powers that be either decide that winning is just as important as cash flow OR the average fan decides its not worth paying into the system any longer, very little will change in the NC State Athletic department, and there will be little to look forward to. Football will probably be enjoyable for another few years until TOB retires, then who knows.

  14. redfred2 02/06/2009 at 7:14 PM #

    Well, they might suck out loud in many areas, but as far as getting the maximum returns for the very minimum of effort, and setting it up in a way that it is almost 100% guaranteed year after year, those guys in ad(+)mini$tration are about as good as gets.

    They deserve a high marks for that anyway, something along the lines of an A$$, or something like that anyway.

  15. Noah 02/06/2009 at 7:22 PM #

    Did ANY of you folks happen to notice the response that NC State’s administration received from the college BB coaching ranks? Do any of you honestly believe that the perception of NC State’s BB program was on the upswing in ANY of the minds of the HS BB player’s available out there?

    Bzzzzzt! Wrong answer.

    The response we got was from John Calipari and Rick Barnes. There was no appeal to the college BB coaching ranks. Any attempt to claim otherwise is simply a lie.

  16. crackdog 02/06/2009 at 7:25 PM #

    Its all about ROI, baby… and NC State is measuring in percent, not actual dollars.

  17. redfred2 02/06/2009 at 7:41 PM #

    Well Noah, I guess when it became totally apparent that what NC State’s administration THOUGHT it had been oh so noble in doing for the past decade or so, and their thinking that it actually meant something to the REAL college BB coaches out there in the REAL world, and when they found out that it didn’t, and that they weren’t even seriously on any of the big time college BB coach’s radar screens, and that NO ONE was interested in their holier than thou, middle of the road crapola, then they just gave up the search and did what was easiest. They ended the search as quickly as possible, no more getting turned down by this one and that one, and they just got it over with.

    I’m also guessing that you think that that is Sidney Lowe’s fault as well.

  19. tmb81 02/06/2009 at 8:52 PM #

    Here’s another way the LTRs provide a win-win situation for the university. Many (especially those in the RBC) are approaching the end of their 10 year pay schedule. If the recession or apathy regarding team performance take their toll, then that just opens up slots. Should the economy improve or the team improve, then there will be demand to buy in or upgrade seats and the cash flow begins anew with resold seats.

  20. redfred2 02/06/2009 at 9:16 PM #

    pakfanistan, is that link for real?

    I can’t get the video, and it keeps trying to get me to download a “shim” for the windows media player.

  21. RagingWolf 02/06/2009 at 9:39 PM #

    Is NC State the only school in the ACC that uses the LTR system? If there are other schools that use this system, are they struggling too?

    On another note, I would like to see Bobby Purcell or Bill Cowher become our next AD.

  22. BSIE80 02/06/2009 at 10:30 PM #

    Don’t know the details of LTR at other schools.

    However, I have been attending at least 1 football game at UVA every year for the past 28 years. It used to be the NCSU every other year, and then potluck the odd year. With conference expansion, we don’t play them every year. So we go to whatever game is convenient for everyone’s schedule.

    One of my fraternity brothers from NCSU has season tickets. He owns a very good business right next to campus, handed down from family (silver spoon type deal). We pull the Hummer up next to the stadium and do a good tailgate.

    I believe these are ltr. They are primo seats on the 50, and the parking spot is right next to the stadium. There has been about 4-5 couples that do this every year same time. For the most part, Virginia expects us to beat them every time. Doesn’t turn out that way all the time. The fans are there for the party/tailgate. We even go out at halftime, which requires another ticket to get back in the gate now. Sometimes we stay in the parking lot along with a lot of other fans.

    So, yea this post is about UVA unsatisfied, but having experienced their atmosphere for 28 years, they want to improve some, but not what NCSU fans are expecting.

    I think their major disappointment is in BB and rightfully so. There are a lot of good players coming out of Va. and they are not landing them like they should. The Jeff Lamp and Ralph Sampson years are long gone.

  23. pakfanistan 02/06/2009 at 10:48 PM #

    pakfanistan, is that link for real?

    I can’t get the video, and it keeps trying to get me to download a “shim” for the windows media player.

    It’s for real. I watched it using the silverlight link. It’s the same technology NBC used to broadcast the olympics online last year.

    Frustratingly, the stream stopped with 23 seconds left in the game, right after Harrow scored a layup to put Walton up by one, 73-72.

  24. 61Packer 02/06/2009 at 11:11 PM #

    As an original LTR Wolfpacker, I believe the “lifetime” period was for 20 years. My purpose for buying LTR seats at that time was to get 2 seats for basketball in the ESA, but since I could also get football tickets at no LTR price increase, I got 2 and then added 2 more the following year. I thought it was a good buy at the time, considering you got two sports for one price, but basketball’s dismal outlook plus a recession are making me rethink whether or not I should continue to buy LTR basketball tickets any longer.

    tmb81 is exactly right about LTRs being a win-win situation for the university. LTRs and PSLs have become a way of life in big sports nowadays. Get the money upfront and to hell with the poor suckers who may or may not get what they paid for. The administrators and eggheads who run NCSU don’t have to worry anymore about putting out a quality athletic product because the seats are already sold.

    Under the LTR system, even a mediocre coach like Herb Sendek can last a decade and leave on his own accord with little if any decline in the number of purchased LTR seats. And under the LTR system, a sub-mediocre coach like Sidney Lowe can actually get a contract extention in spite of an ACC record that gets worse by the season. As great and loyal as State LTR fans are, there’s only so much even they can tolerate.

    Football has become fun again; even a 6-7 season was enjoyable this time around. I can’t wait for next season to begin. But for basketball, I can’t wait for this season to end. Year after year after year after year of losing just overwhelms you. I remember attending State games in the Coliseum when Everett Case was the coach, right on up through the Jim Valvano years. Going to a Wolfpack home game then was pure pleasure. Now it’s pure pain.

    I’m past the point of wanting a cure. I just want the pain to go away.

  25. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 11:15 PM #

    “Is there a significant number of Wolfpackers who seriously care about vastly improving Wolfpack athletics, or do most just not care?”

    I think most fans see the situation and any efforts to change it as futile … I don’t think people don’t care so much as a feeling of apathy has taken root

    Tough to change that

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