ACC Breakdown

Ken Pomeroy is no longer calculating the RPI for Division I basketball teams. He said that he was tired of answering questions about the RPI and that it provided virtually no useful data for the types of “more sophisticated work” that he was doing.

This is especially sad for me, because I have used kenpom.com extensively over the last several years. Even though CBS still employs the Troll, I have spent some time looking at their RPI calcs and team pages. The “RPI Breakdown” page for each team is especially well laid out. One really interesting thing is that they break down the wins in the Top-100 in groupings of 25, instead of 50 at kenpom.com.

I think that this more in-depth view will be useful as we evaluate the NCAAT bubble. I expect that wins versus the Top-25 will be especially important as we pick through the last teams looking to clear the bubble. In a little over a month, we’ll see if my expectations are realized or not.

ACC Breakdown

Here are the ACC standings and the RPI ranking for each team through games played on 2/8.

acc-bb-2-9

I am going to ignore the top and bottom ¼ of the conference since their position relative to the NCAAT is pretty well fixed. I am going to focus on the middle of the conference and discuss some things that caught my attention.

I have looked at the NCAAT bubble several times before in several different formats. The “minimum” requirements to make the NCAAT vary somewhat from year to year (based on what everyone else in the nation is doing), but here is my minimum resume requirements for making the NCAAT:

-> 8-8 conference record
-> “Reasonable” OOC schedule (within say the top #175 SOS or so)
->Several wins against other NCAAT teams or one key-note win against a top program
-> ACCT win on Thursday

You can (and State has) get in with less on your resume. But this list will serve as a short-hand approach to evaluate teams at the half-way point in the conference schedule.

Note: Each team’s name is a link that will take you to the RPI Breakdown page at CBSsports.com

Wake Forest

With wins over Duke and UNC, WF would have to have a collapse of epic proportions to miss the NCAAT. However, they recently had a tough two-week stretch with losses to VT, GT, and Miami. The win over Duke may have “salvaged” this period, but those three losses pretty much moved WF towards the middle of the conference in my mind.

Time well tell if this two-week period was just some inconsistency due to youth or if the losses point to deeper issues. In any event, I’m sure that Deacon fans are thrilled with the recovery of the program after three-consecutive losing ACC seasons. However, I am not convinced that they are ready to make reservations for the Final Four just yet.

FSU

I can’t remember the last time that FSU was in such good shape at the halfway point of the conference season. A top-25 RPI ranking and 5-3 conference record certainly has Seminole fans eager for Selection Sunday. An OOC strength of schedule ranking of #135 is a dramatic improvement over the recent past and has helped the RPI ranking as well.

However, a little closer look at FSU’s record revealed something that should be a little disturbing to FSU fans. Of those five ACC wins, four of them came against the bottom 1/3 of the conference….and they only have one game remaining against the bottom quartet.

In the second half of the conference schedule, FSU basically trades games against the bottom third with games against the middle third. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the Seminoles are in trouble…it just means that the last eight games will be a lot tougher than the first eight. Here’s FSU’s remaining games:

Top 1/3 – WF, Clemson, Duke
Middle 1/3 – Miami, BC, VT (x2)
Bottom 1/3 – Virginia

Virginia Tech

Since joining the ACC, VT has missed the NCAAT twice with a .500 or better record in conference play. This doesn’t have any special significance…it’s just highly unusual. Last year, they missed the NCAAT because they were 1-7 against the RPI Top-50. Their only top-50 win was against Miami in the ACCT, which wasn’t quite good enough.

VT has work left before they can be assured of an NCAAT slot, but the road victory at WF certainly gave them that key victory that the lacked last year. An OOC SOS ranking of #90 is more than good enough. They obviously want to do as good as possible, but my minimums listed above are easily within reach.

I don’t have any reason to believe that the NCAAT selection committee gives any “credit” for close losses. However, if any team ever deserved some leeway for playing so well but coming up short, it would have to be this VT team. Four of their seven losses have been to Top-50 teams by a combined 8 points.

VT’s Remaining Schedule:
Top 1/3 – UNC, Clemson, Duke
Middle 1/3 – FSU (x2)
Bottom 1/3 – GT, Maryland, Virginia

Boston College

BC got their signature win early in January in Chapel Hill. They currently sit at 3-5 against the Top-50, so they should be in pretty good shape….but more key-note wins never hurt.

The BC season is really strange in that their results have come in streaks:
Win three
Lose two
Win ten
Lose four
Win five

February is no time to have losing streaks, so we’ll have to see how they react after Sunday’s loss at WF. BC’s remaining schedule breaks down to:

Top 1/3 – Clemson, Duke (their next two games)
Middle 1/3 – Miami, FSU
Bottom 1/3 – GT, NCSU

Miami

With two losses to teams in the bottom 1/3 of the conference, Miami is not in the best possible position with respect to making the NCAAT. Home wins against WF and FSU are good…but “people” keep saying that the NCAAT selection committee likes to see road/neutral wins. Their best road win to date is against BC and we will have to wait and see how good that win turns out to be.

Miami may have the easiest remaining schedule of the ACC bubble teams:

Top 1/3 – UNC
Middle 1/3 –FSU, BC
Bottom 1/3 – UVA, GT, NCSU

If Miami doesn’t end up with an 8-8 or better conference record, then they really have no one to blame but themselves.

Maryland

I have been known to make fun of GW and Maryland whenever possible. So in the interest of building up some off-setting karma, I am going to give the Twerps the benefit of the doubt and put them on the bubble (the far, back edge… but still on the bubble).

By far, Maryland’s best win of the season was against Michigan State in late November. The problem is that I’m not sure that the NCAAT selection committee gives much weight to “big” wins that early in the season. Other than that, their top-50 wins come against Miami (#41) and Michigan (#50).

So sitting at 4-5 in the conference, it is safe to say the Maryland COULD still make the NCAAT, but they have a lot of work left to do. Depending on how you look at it, they are “lucky” to have the most difficult remaining schedule of any ACC bubble team:

Top 1/3 – UNC, Clemson, WF, Duke
Middle 1/3 – VT
Bottom 1/3 – UVA, NCSU

The good news for the Terps is that if they get to 8-8 in the conference, then they will have added another key-note win to their resume.

General Note

As I reviewed this entry, I noticed that I did not discuss the OOC SOS for every team. Instead of going back and putting an ill-fitting sentence into each team’s write-up, I’ll just make a couple of blanket statements. While no one has a note-worthy difficult OOC schedule, no one has one to be embarrassed about either.

I think that it is safe to say that the conference performance down the stretch will determine how many ACC teams make the NCAAT. My wild guess for the moment is that seven teams from the ACC will make the NCAAT this year.

PS

Ignore all internet discussions about NCAAT seeding. The top seeds will not…and cannot be determined before the conference tournaments are played. You may be able to eliminate teams from the top 2 seeds as losses mount, but the conference tournaments could have a huge effect on where the top teams in each conference end up.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

08-09 Basketball

16 Responses to ACC Breakdown

  1. redfred2 02/10/2009 at 9:53 PM #

    Good stuff VaWolf.

    Not that it really matters, but with UVA’s record, inside and outside of conference play, how does equate to 21 points higher in the RPI rankings? I know there is a two game difference overall and it’s probably a stupid question, but just tell me, I do not want to have to try to figure it out on my own.

  2. Wulfpack 02/10/2009 at 10:25 PM #

    I’d say VT, BC and Miami sneak in while Maryland heads to the NIT. The question is will we be joining the Terps in the NIT as the only other ACC participant b/c GT and UVA will be sitting home with losing records.

    Right now, Wake is at best an Elite 8 team. But they are very young and a second round loss in the NCAA’s isn’t out of the question.

    UNC is our only national championship contender, but they have no lock down defender with Ginyard sitting the year out due to injury. UConn to me is a better all around team.

  3. wufpup76 02/10/2009 at 10:27 PM #

    Very good and interesting post … thanks

    This should be a lot of fun to discuss

    I know I’m being a nit, but Maryland actually beat Mich St. in the Old Spice Classic earlier this season (You know, the same Old Spice Classic we won last season that was the primer for such a fantastic season )… I’ve already forgotten who Md played in the challenge

    Of the teams looked at above, I would say that WF and FSU are in really good shape at the moment, with Miami and Maryland in the worse shape

    I think you are being very … kind to the Terrapins by putting them on the bubble 😉

    VT and BC certainly have a pretty good shot, but I’m unsure if either or both would be in as of today … BC is playing Clemson right now in a huge game for both squads … Clemson doesn’t want a losing streak and BC needs to win at home against a good opponent

    It’s 64-59 Clemson with about 11:00 to play for anyone up and wondering

    Unrelated, but during the Villanova-Marquette game tonight ESPN apparently felt the need to scrool message board comments from fans across the top of the screen … HIGHLY. ANNOYING. It’s enough to make me not watch a college basketball game, and I love college basketball. Hope they don’t keep doing that kind of crap – especially during ACC – NC State games

  4. VaWolf82 02/11/2009 at 8:09 AM #

    Thanks for the correction about MD’s game against MSU…it’s been fixed.

    Now for UVA vs NCSU and the RPI….

    I expect that the difference in UVA and State is in the opponents played. Remember that the SOS is determined by the won/loss records of your opponents and the won/loss record of their opponents.

    UVa’s OOC SOS is ranked 19th in the country according to CBS and State’s is ranked #319. That difference looks big enough to me to over ride the difference in State’s and UVa’s actual W/L record. The overall SOS rankings are #4 for UVA and #97 for State

  5. choppack1 02/11/2009 at 8:51 AM #

    Here’s a question to ponder:

    Why on earth is VaTech so bad early in the year. VAWolf – you correctly note that VaTech has been left home 2 of the last 3 years w/ .500 or better records. I think in both of those years if they hadn’t been so decidedly bad in the first half of the season – they would have gone to the tourney. And guess what, the same thing happened this year. They are a respectable 5-3 in the ACC, but were a mediocre 10-4 OOC. Luckily for them, right now they have a solid RPI.

    On another note, I’m also disappointed that kenpom won’t be around anymore. I actually wonder if his ranking was used more than people thought – it was certainly a truer indicator of a good team than the RPI.

    As far as NC State – if you want to know why Sunday’s loss was so devastating – in our 8 remaining games, we play 4 teams I think we could beat if we played how we played for much of the first half of the season – in GaTech, UVa, UMd and BC…you also have to think that between playing Wake twice and play at the “U” – we might have been able to squeak out another win. But that’s the small difference between nothing and CBI, CBI and NIT, NIT and NCAA, NCAA bubble team and good seed.

  6. blackdom 02/11/2009 at 8:57 AM #

    Wow ooc sos rank is 319 wow that is weak . But I guess it helps Sid’s win %

  7. Noah 02/11/2009 at 9:11 AM #

    UVa’s OOC SOS is ranked 19th in the country according to CBS and State’s is ranked #319.

    Sweet Jesus.

  8. VaWolf82 02/11/2009 at 9:29 AM #

    On another note, I’m also disappointed that kenpom won’t be around anymore. I actually wonder if his ranking was used more than people thought – it was certainly a truer indicator of a good team than the RPI.

    The Pomeroy rankings are still alive and well. Ken is just not posting the RPI anymore.

  9. Classof89 02/11/2009 at 9:51 AM #

    When you are good and nationally prominent, ESPN and the other sports networks come knocking on your door wanting to schedule good inter-conference matchups with national interest. I remember one year in mid-80s when we were making the Sweet Sixteen/Elite Eight most years, we had UNLV, Louisville, and Kentucky the same year OOC.

    When you are crummy, those spotlight games don’t get offered to you (although you would think middling teams in other big conferences and good teams in middlign conferences would be clamoring to play us so they can get a win against an ACC school. 319 in OOC strength is embarassing and unacceptable.

  10. wufpup76 02/11/2009 at 9:52 AM #

    ^About VT’s early season struggles –

    We have to keep in mind that it is apparently mandatory for them to lose at least 2 games per early season in the fashion in which they lost to Xavier … Up by 1 or 2 points, time running out … opponent heaves halfcourt or 3/4 court shot in desperation … SWISH! VT loses 🙂 …

    I think the loses that will really come back and hurt them are GEORGIA and Seton Hall … The Georgia loss is really a black eye for them and the conference … The Bulldogs are AWFUL … VT also lost at home (at the last second no less) to Wisconsin which could be painful …

    Not sure how, but the Badgers have some unreal RPI figure even though they went through a 6 game losing streak. I don’t care who they’ve played, a 6 game losing streak is not indicative of a top 25 or 30 team whether you’re using the RPI or any other type of ranking … I find it especially hard to believe that they remained in the field and/or just out of it by “bracketologists” during this streak … Someone may get snubbed for their gaudy numbers – not cool … They shouldn’t be close

  11. waxhaw 02/11/2009 at 10:06 AM #

    I have always liked http://www.collegerpi.com for rpi ratings.

    They have a free ranking. I think it is updated weekly.

    They also have a pay site which has a lot of cool features:

    1) updated daily
    2) prior year data (including NCAA tourney)
    3) quick conference sorting
    4) at the end of the year the schedules are shaded to show NCAA participants
    5) also includes BCS data which hasn’t been all that relevant for NC State fans

    I really like #4 because you can quickly go back and look at a teams record versus quality opponents (NCAA participants). It’s amazing how that statistic alone guages the quality or lack of quality of a team in retrospect.

  12. BJD95 02/11/2009 at 10:25 AM #

    The numbers suggest that Miami may only need 7 ACC wins, while BC probably needs at least 9. That’s the difference between beating Kentucky (Miami) and losing to Harvard (BC).

    Hopefully, we will get at least 6 bids this year, preferably 7-8.

    No idea how Maryland managed to beat Michigan State. Of course, Sparty has lost home games to Northwestern and Penn State (otherwise unbeaten in Big Ten play), so concentration is apparently a problem for them as much as it is for Wake.

  13. wufpup76 02/11/2009 at 10:51 AM #

    From cbssports – as VaWolf was using:

    OOC schedule – RPI rank

    @New Orleans – 280 (W)
    High Point – 332 (W)
    Winthrop – 246 (W)
    UNC-G – 314 (W)
    @Davidson – 49 (L)
    Winston Salem St. – 318 (W)
    ECU – 166 (W)
    Lipscomb – 312 (W)
    Marquette – 23 (L)
    Loyala Md. – 151 (W)
    Towson – 231 (W)
    @Florida – 34 (L)
    NCCU – 339 (W)

    Out of 13 non conference games:

    – A total of 3 road/neutral court games were played; 2 of 3 were losses

    – 8 of 13 games were played against opponents with RPI’s of over 200+

    – 5 of those 8 games were played against opponents with an RPI of over 300

    – Each opponent with an RPI under 100 equaled a loss (3)

    ^I guess this is why our OOC schedule is ranked #319 or whatever … The numbers speak for themselves

    This OOC schedule was extremely Sendekian … we deserve better

    Even if we had somehow gotten to 9-7 in conference we would have been on the outside looking in due to this OOC schedule … We would have had to win 2 games in the ACC tourney just to feel good about Selection Sunday even if would’ve finished the regular season campaign at 9-7 … In other words, PATHETIC

  14. VaWolf82 02/11/2009 at 11:26 AM #

    We would have had to win 2 games in the ACC tourney just to feel good about Selection Sunday even if would’ve finished the regular season campaign at 9-7

    Not really. In this hypothetical situation, getting an NCAAT bid would be entirely dependent on who State had beaten in conference.

    If memory serves, State made the NCAAT in 2002 and 2003 while beating a grand total of 3 NCAAT teams in both seasons combined. Both years State beat the #1 seed in the ACCT…which must have really impressed the selection committee.

    Who you have beaten is alot more important that who you have played.

  15. wufpup76 02/11/2009 at 1:05 PM #

    ^True …

  16. Classof89 02/11/2009 at 1:41 PM #

    I’d be a whole lot happier with the schedule if we had a policy of playing only one team per season with an RPI above 300. We don’t have to go back to playing Kentucky, Louisville and UNLV in the same year (not yet, anyway…). But can we get rid of High Point, UNC-G, and Winston Salem and replace them with better regional teams like College of Charleston (120), VMI (129), Old Dominion (155), VCU (73)?

    Or how about home and homes vs. bad major conference teams like Georgia (214), George Washington (210), DePaul (199), or Rutgers (162)?

    Is it about the money? I.e., do we pay so small a guarantee that only the most impoverished chump schools will agree to come to Raleigh without a return?

Leave a Reply