UNC 93, NC State76

Tar Heel fans, who made the trip to the RBC Center for the first two rounds of the 2008 NCAA Tournament, turned up in pockets. With their light blue and the pink in the N.C. State student section — an homage to Kay Yow — the place looks like a maternity ward.

Just a guess, but that is the most UNC fans in N.C. State’s building for a State-Carolina game in 15 years. A 15-point favorite, the Heels did not disappoint their traveling fan base.

Note: It’s not like the 2003 State-Carolina game at the Smith Center, which was a virtual home game for State, but there’s a good amount of blue sprinkled throughout the building, especially the upper deck, which mostly has been empty this season.

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08-09 Basketball NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

107 Responses to UNC 93, NC State76

  1. Classof89 02/02/2009 at 9:54 AM #

    Wolfdog wrote:
    “See Tudor like Noah and all the other Blue birds. They all love to see us get lots of bad press and can Sidney. Then liberal Noah, Tudor, and everyone be all over us for firing a minority coach and not giving him a chance when we gave white Sendeck all the time in the world. That way we lose our recruiting class, Costner certainly does not come back, and players transfer. Really set the program back for years to come. Make sure we not going to do anything in basketball for the next decade. Their real agenda is they scared Sid is going to succeed. They remind of those that went after V. Couldn’t have a coach in the UNC system that was more popular than Dean. Tudor was right in their with them back then and here he is again.

    Don’t let the Tudors and the Noahs of the worlds trick you into their agenda. They in no way shape of form have the best interest of NCSU in mind.”

    This is close to, if not THE stupidest thing I’ve read on here in a long time…are the Idiot Board posters starting to migrate over here? To impune that Noah doesn’t bleed NC State red, merely because you have your head stuck up your ass dreaming about the Valvano era (and are desperately clinging to an awful coach merely because he has ties to that era) rates in my book as a masterpiece of self-delusion.

    This program is a train wreck right now, and you can rail about the “guv-mint”, the News and Observer, and various other totems of your frustration all you want, but the Head Coach is responsible for running a successful basketball program. Period. Blaming others and constructing silly conspiracy theories is I guess some people’s alternatives to making difficult choices.

  2. Par Shooter 02/02/2009 at 10:00 AM #

    I probably shouldn’t even open up this can of worms but I cannot help it. The revisionist history regarding Les’ tenure at State drives me absolutely crazy. There is some of it in these comments. While Les is a great guy he was simply a horrible basketball coach and THAT is why we sucked during his tenure. Most of the academic restrictions that everyone references are complete BS. Les recruited several players who barely qualified under NCAA minimums and at least 1 who never qualified. The only academic casualty I can recall that was a result of our university-specific standards was Kornegay being ineligible after 1 semester. That was self-imposed and was total BS and it did hurt us. But aside from that one instance I don’t think that Les was hamstrung to any degree that approaches the legend. I think folks look at Todd Fuller and extrapolate that all of our players had 4.0 gpa’s in real majors. They didn’t. Les took at least 3 juco guys who couldn’t qualify out of HS. Out of respect to the individuals I’m not going mention any names but if you think back to some of the guys who played here during Les’ tenure you’ll realize that we didn’t have a bunch of eggheads on the team by any stretch of the imagination.

  3. ktoh 02/02/2009 at 10:09 AM #

    So if you don’t agree with having Sid here as a coach you are pro-holes? That is so absurd this program sucks and will suck sad as it may seem as long as sid and Fowler are here. I wished ,hoped and prayed Sid could do the job ,sadly he can’t.
    Whomever said that the program is good by saying none of Sid’s asst.coaches have left let me give you a newsflash:coaches leave programs to become head coaches sadly I doubt anyone is looking at this group for their programs.
    “Sid has had some success in recruiting” JJ will be a good nba player,with or without him last year we could have finished up with the same record.
    Look around the league as bad as virginia is they start 3 freshmen,all other teams in the league are in far greater shape than us in terms of underclassman.

  4. zahadum 02/02/2009 at 10:22 AM #

    Various thoughts. First on the end of game incident, I don’t fault either Copeland or MacCauley. The one who deserves censure is Bobby Frasor. He should never have thrown that pass, he should have had the sense and the class to hold the ball and run the clock out.

    I have no idea where Wall will go, but if he does want to be a one and done, then it makes no sense that he would go to Duke. As good as he is, he would at best split time with Nolan Smith next year.

    Lastly, I’m usually not as down on the N & O as some of you, but after this weekend that may have changed. For an outfit that whines as much as they do about being unfairly perceived as having a pro Carolina bias, their headlines this weekend were unbelieveable. First on Saturday, they have, not just one the sports section but on the front page, ‘why can’t Lowe bet Carolina?’ Uh, maybe because they have 7 guys who’ll be in the NBA while we have at best 2 longshots. And even worse was the totally ridiculous headline Sunday of ‘fan taunts energize Hansbro’. Pulless. Like in his longer career he’s never had fans say anything mean to him before. I’m sure when he plays at Duke, the fans all yell ‘we love you, Tyler.’

    What got him energized was Williams benching him 2 minutes into the game for not boxing out.

  5. 61Packer 02/02/2009 at 11:38 AM #

    GROWLLLL……….

  6. 66pack 02/02/2009 at 11:46 AM #

    First I agree with Noah’s take on the coach.Second,the many comments about being pleased with the effort is a real change fron when we expected to win. We would never be content with anything but a win.20 years of losing does effect the fans expectations.

  7. SEAT.5.F.2 02/02/2009 at 12:02 PM #

    My fav of Noah’s is that Sid is a bad manager of PEOPLE; not a team, not a program. What would be interesting would be how far down the class system he would recomend Lowe free falling until he were allowed to ever supervise another individual.

  8. newt 02/02/2009 at 12:11 PM #

    “The only academic casualty I can recall that was a result of our university-specific standards was Kornegay being ineligible after 1 semester. That was self-imposed and was total BS and it did hurt us.”

    It’s true that the main difference between State and other schools during Les’ time was that it took about a 1/2 GPA point higher to stay eligible at State, and that rule applied beginning semester one.

    That said, with Kornegay as the example, that rule hurt us a lot across all sports. Kornegay was a beast, but he transferred, and any athlete looking at State knew they ran a much greater risk of being ineligible at some point than at any other school, especially in semester one. Other schools had no minimum GPA requirement for semester one. Also I do believe our math requirement was higher than other schools’ at the time.

  9. statered 02/02/2009 at 12:16 PM #

    the problem with Noah’s critique is that he offers no information to support his conclusion. I have no idea if Sid is a bad manager of people, I do know what he does during the games. Based on that I do not think he is a bad coach. He is actually one of the better offensive coaches in the league.

    Now Noah might be able to pull out some obscure bit of info from recruiting in 1979 but I am convinced he knows nothing about coaching basketball.

  10. Wolf Dog 02/02/2009 at 12:26 PM #

    Par Shooter. I disagree. Les went pretty much straight up against Dean. He had best winning percentage against UNC of our coaches since Sloan. You don’t do that with the lack of talent he had if youcan;t coach.

    The restrictions were there. Remember the kid that couldn’t play in Valvano’s last season (Lester I believe) due to in-house restrictions. Les operated under those same restrictions. That move by the administration along with other moves, and the overwhelming bad press was a recruiting nightmare for Les and us, at the time. Talent wins in the ACC. If Les had lost with lots of talent like a Paul Hewitt is doing at Tech then I would call him a bad coach. But he didn’t, instead he was unable to overcome the obstacles and stepped aside for his love of NCSU. I don’t call that a bad coach. I call him a class act!

    I notice those of you taking up the position that Sid is a bad manager of people offer no proof. Certainly that is contrary to what the Hickson family and so many others say about Sid. Guess ya’ll Smokin that same weed that caused some of you to claim that Costner was absolutely not returning next year. Costner set the record staight and I believe he referred to ya’ll as “internet crazys”. Be nice if ya’ll would use this forum as a way to improve and support the program. Instead ya’ll spread more fake gossip than a bunch of old women at a Chapel Hill rest home!

  11. Wolf Dog 02/02/2009 at 12:40 PM #

    Oh yea and by the way Par Shooter and others like you. You and those like you are why we have Lee Fowler as AD. You see we had a great AD in way of Les! But he left cause he got tired of going to Club meetings and functions and having people like you come up and talk about how he was a bad coach and made our basketball program stink. The man loved NCSU and would never do anything to hurt our program. So he left and took the AD job and the Citidel which was close to his home. Thanks to you, we have Lee Fowler! Way to go!

  12. Rick 02/02/2009 at 12:52 PM #

    “Oh yea and by the way Par Shooter and others like you. You and those like you are why we have Lee Fowler as AD.”

    Enough of the generalizations.

  13. choppack1 02/02/2009 at 12:53 PM #

    Lots of good thoughts here…My basic thoughts on the “state of the program” under this
    current staff are as follows:
    *Lowe’s strong suit, right now, at this moment, appears to be his recruiting. He has a solid class for this year and next year lined up. However, he needs to be a better “manager’ of his scholarship allocation. In the next 2 years, we may struggle stopping
    folks inside as I just don’t see – at this moment – a lot of height on this squad.
    *Newt is correct in that the most important factor for success is recruiting. However,
    after recruiting, you better be able to teach and motivate. I think in general, Sidney
    is doing an OK job motivating. But where this team is breaking down is executing the little things. And folks, as easy as it is to blame McCauley, Costner and Fells for not doing these things, it is a problem the ENTIRE TEAM has. Even our team’s “Charlie Hustle” – Johnny Thomas doesn’t always get back on D or always box out his man.
    *Until our team understands that at a minimum they need to beat the other guy down the court and find a guy to box out EVERY TIME a shot goes up – we’ll struggle. Even if we
    have great talent – the best we can hope for is the results that Hewitt’s teams have had
    at GaTech.

    Unlike Noah – I don’t think we have the same level of futility that we had when Les was here. However, that doesn’t really matter – because if we’re arguing, “well, at least he’s not as bad as Les” – he still hasn’t passed the test. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs
    that right now, most in the fan base are hoping only for NCAA tourney births in the next 2 years.

    The true test of Lowe will be these next 2 years. The results of these first 3 years, should lead to Fowler being fired. Heck, the search itself should have created that end result. I’d like to hope that after another year of a likely bottom third finish in conference that we could at least take the first step towards overall athletic improvement.
    That’s probably a pipe dream.

  14. Par Shooter 02/02/2009 at 1:25 PM #

    Whoa, whoa Dog. You’ve gotten way ahead of yourself there. I said Les was a bad coach and I was glad when he resigned, no doubt. But I was very happy with the decision to stash him in the ath dept until Turner finally left and was happy with the decision to promote him to AD. Once MAF found someone else to handle the financial side of things I thought Les was a great fit as an AD. Even he admitted that the budgetary stuff was not a strength or interest of his. But at the time he left she already had somebody else on the pursestrings.

    Personally I don’t think Les left here under any pressure at all, unless it was from MAF. At that point most fans were happy with the only big hire he’d made (Chuck) and the $$ was rolling in at the start of football expansion. He wanted a slower pace and a chance to live in the Charleston area and he had always loved The Citadel. I think the assertion that he left after several years as AD because folks had complained about his coaching is total BS.

    And for the record I actually ran into Les at a few social gatherings while he was AD and greatly enjoyed having a beer and talking sports. He is the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet and funny as hell (as I’m sure lots on here can attest). Saying that a guy couldn’t get it done coaching here is not a full-on character assasination, it’s just a fact.

    If you knew my long-standing views on Fowler you would laugh at how silly your statement really is. I was saying a lot of the things that are prevalent on here now after about 2 years of this bozo.

  15. whitefang 02/02/2009 at 1:38 PM #

    I am one who thinks these internet discussions do not negatively affect State athletics. It is likely, short of a miraculous turnaround, that we finish 10th or worse in the ACC again in Sid’s 3rd year. So I don’t know if he is a bad coach, bad manager, bad recruiter, or just bad luck, but I don’t see how anyone can argue that the job so far is getting done. And I don’t believe that SFN discussions are the reason.
    But that aside, he isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. So lets hope he is not a bad student and learns how to run an ACC caliber basketball program over the course of the next few years. I don’t think that is likely either, but nothing would make me any happier than being wrong about it.

  16. choppack1 02/02/2009 at 1:59 PM #

    for those wondering what it is when Noah criticizes Sid’s management skills – I imagine it basically means everything BUT
    1)recruiting the kids you’ve targeted,
    2) breaking down tape of the opponent,
    3) implementing your base defenses
    4) implementing offenses.

    It’s the other things that take place aside from these basic 4 areas.

  17. statered 02/02/2009 at 2:22 PM #

    ^fair enough choppack. I know folks had made illusions to the fact that the critques shoud not be made public in these other areas. My point is if you can’t provide the supporting evidence don’t make the argument at all. I cannot be won over to a point of view without a legitimate argument being made.

  18. b_2005 02/02/2009 at 2:32 PM #

    i’ve been reading for a while and not really posted, but i would like to chime in on a few things…i don’t think the lowe issue is as black and white as the pro and anti-lowe posters would like to think…here are two of my views of our current situation…

    1) Recruiting>>>>>
    lowe was put in a bad starting position and was left a mess…recruits backed out of the 06′ class and the players he did have were all recruited for a different style of ball…additionally, there was no true point guard on the team…i, for one, thought atsur was a pleasant surprise considering that before lowe he was basiclly a spot up two gaurd in herbs system… ’07 he had the choice of filling up holes with sub par players (e.g., javi) to try to creat depth be competetive or just throw in the towel for a couple of years until he could bring in quality players…looking back, some may not agree, but i would still rather have javi running things than grant and fells trying to bring the ball up the court… ’08 considering that you basically have to start talking to some of these kids in middle school now, i am not too down on mays and cj…i personally can not fault the recruiting to this point and it looks to start dramatically improving next year…so, i give the guy good marks in this area…and regurads to this situation, i’m sorry for those that do not agree, but not many people would have succeeded in three years without prior recuiting ties, such as the TOB situation…

    2) Motivation>>>>
    This is a gray area, but one that does not require three plus years to fix…first, you can not light the competitive fire in players…it comes within…MJ had it and no coach could ever make a player play with that kind of emotion…so, at times when this team loafed around last last and this year…blame has to go to the players, at least 50% of it….with that said, the coach has to have the guts to pull a guy out of the game…and this is where i think sid needs to become more of a hard ass…i hate everything about carolina, but when ole roy pulled tyler out for not boxing out…i said myself, now why can’t our coaches do that…he needs to let them boys ride the pine until they learn to play hard, BOX OUT, & BOUNCE PASS…it would solve half of our problems…

    so, i will be optimistic and hope lowe improves on his weak areas…as, i think it is far eaiser to improve coaching with experience than to improve recruiting…

  19. choppack1 02/02/2009 at 4:10 PM #

    statered – I think a lot of it is obvious kind of stuff if you take some things at face value – but there’s certainly a lot of variables.

    I would say that when it comes to Lowe – there’s proof that he can get his foot in the door and make a good impression w/ some very elite talent. There’s also the circumstantial evidence – demonstrated by a 10+ career as a coach in the NBA – that the guy can break down tape and knows X and Os.

    I’d say that this is the ONLY evidence we have that Sidney can be a good coach. (For a comparison, I don’t give Les this kind of credit.)

    Right now, at this junction, he has a miserable ACC record – one that happens to bear an eerie similarity to his NBA record. You can lay that blame where you want, but we’ll find out soon enough if the guy’s problems really are management…if so they’ll reveal themselves in the areas that have killed this team since his arrival:
    1) Poor execution/preparation – either team doesn’t listen or team isn’t give correct message for opponent.
    2) Rigid substitution/personell groupings – Guys generally play one position for Sid, rarely do we “experiment” with lineups that will enhance our quickness or overall team speed. In key conference games, against solid opponents, having a team composed entirely or almost entirely of reserves on the floor for an extensive period of time.
    3) Failing to do the little things – ALL players (not just the previous’ coaches recruits) fail to box out, fail to get back on D, fail to demonstrate proper defensive fundamentals.
    4) Questionable recruiting decisions – Failing to have an adequate back-up for primary targets and failing to get players w/ versatile skillsets and/or skillsets mature enough for the ACC.
    5) Poor motivation – team doesn’t play inspired basketball nearly enough. (I don’t think that this has been a problem this year. It was a problem his first 2 years.)

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. None of this stuff means that Sid can’t win this year or the next or the next one after that. He didn’t walk into the ideal situation and his own weaknesses –whether they were his fault or not – almost guaranteed what we’re seeing today.

  20. redfred2 02/02/2009 at 4:46 PM #

    “Until our team understands that at a minimum they need to beat the other guy down the court and find a guy to box out EVERY TIME a shot goes up – we’ll struggle.”

    Um, I would have to slighty disagree with that statement.

    On the collegiate level a Head Coach should be devoting his time to teaching and developing overall strategies.

    Now, on the other hand, if you want these playres to go back to rec. league or junior high perhaps, THEN, I’d think their former coaches from those developmental leagues would be more than happy to REFRESH them on the COMMON SENSE and VERY ELEMENTARY aspects of playing the game of basketball.

    Don’t mean to bust your chops, chop, but no one should have to force these guys to hustle back on defense. I agree that there should be definite consequences for NOT hustling or NOT blocking out though.

    So, in that event and if Lowe sticks to punishing for PITIFUL effort on the BB court, and then people start bitching and moaning about why this player or that one wasn’t playing in the game at any given time, and we end up LOSING by even bigger margins, what then?

    So which is it?

  21. Wolfpack_1995 02/02/2009 at 4:56 PM #

    Forget Lowe and start from the top.

    That is where the head of the snake begins. Swofford. Bowles. Fowler. and then Obinger.

    We can argue how good Sid is going to be until the cows come home but it just doesn’t matter.

    You see the cards are stacked against us from the top on down.

    When State fans start realizing the real control of our programs comes from Swofford, Bowles, Fowler, and Oblinger then we will understand the current state of mediocrity we are in.

    Sid can only do so much. Why the hell do you think Calipari and Barnes did not come here? They both did not want to put up with the Bullshit and other politics that come into play as being as State head coach.

    Meanwhile over at the hill Chief Davis and good ol’Roy Boy can bend the rules all they want.

    A Revolution is needed from the top on down. Then you will see change. Otherwise we are just wasting our time.

    Throw in the BOT and Media as other obstacles that a State coach has to overcome when here then you will see why we have won nothing significant in 20 YEARS.

    We had two visionaries at State and they were both run out. Valvano and MAF. Coincidence. I think not!

  22. Classof89 02/02/2009 at 5:02 PM #

    good grief, choppack…you give a list of five things that are indicative of poor coaching, note correctly that ACC record so far on par with his NBA record, and then say that “None of this stuff means that Sid can’t win this year or the next or the next one after that.”

    Lets do a thought experiment…what WILL it take for you to conclude that Sid isn’t up to the job and should have never been hired? 2-14 to 4-12 again next year? But wait, shouldn’t “his” recruits get a few years to play in “his system”? So that pushes us back to ’10-’11 season, or, more reasonably, ’11-’12 season. 4-12, maybe 5-11 again.

    When does it end?

  23. redfred2 02/02/2009 at 5:21 PM #

    Yeah, wolfpack_1995, but you know those two people, MAF and Valvano, were just baaaad people. If you don’t believe me just ask SOME of these ‘Wolfpack’ fans on here right now. Better yet, just ask all of our friends out there in the media, some writer who wants to sell a book, or the BOT, Swofford, Erskine,…

    Those folks will all tell you, and SOME people around here will ALWAYS fall right in line with EVERY little word that they are saying. Those fans are just like our administration, they put all of their self worth in what someone else thinks, instead of simply thinking for themselves. Bless their little hearts, and minds, they just can’t help it.

  24. choppack1 02/02/2009 at 5:37 PM #

    Class of 89 – Here’s what I’d say if I was AD tomorrow (to Sid.)

    Next year, we expect to see tangible results. If we’re not a tourney team, we should at least be on the bubble (think 7-9 ACC record w/ returning players showing improvement and freshmen showing promise.)

    If we don’t make the tourney, but were on the bubble, AND the recruits who’ve committed thus far are everything I’ve read, then in 2010, I’d like to see drastic improvement. No “bubble”.

    In other words, if next year we’re awful again, I’m on the fence based on independent assessments of CJ Leslie and Harrow. If they both sign Fall LOIs, and we stink, then there’s a good chance Lowe is gone.

    If these guys back out of their commitment to NC State, and we don’t make the tourney next year – he’s gone. No matter if we’re a bubble squad or not.

    Redfred – You mention that stuff should be second nature – but if you watch any basketball – it’s not. It’s something the good teams do and it’s something bad teams don’t do. Even the good players will have a lapse – and it’s important for them to understand when they have them they aren’t tolerated. IMHO, the message has been all too mixed thus far.

    I’d also say that basketball is funny game in terms of effort. It’s a little like soccer in that since the movement is constant there’s a tendency to pace oneself. Duke really changed the template in terms of the amount of effort expended on each possession. For 3/4s of the game, we matched that level. For much of the UNC game, we matched the level – but we just weren’t prepated to match it for 40 minutes. For the record, these are the 2 best basketball programs in the NCAA – they play VERY hard with VERY talented players.

    I’ll put it this way, if Lowe is their coach, I don’t think that these teams have the record that they have today.

    However, I think Sidney and staff are learning. If he can apply the lessons of the first 2 years w/ some others AND get more talent, we should be fine.

  25. redfred2 02/02/2009 at 6:01 PM #

    chop, mostly agree, but I also think that it’s the creme de la creme that needs to be reminded that they HAVE put forth effort on BOTH ends of the court. It SHOULD NOT BE THAT WAY for someone who is NOT really even playing good on the offensive end or even executing in any manner that he SHOULD BE expecting out of his OWNSELF.

    It seems there is no answer, but I have never seen anything like it anyway.

    Oh yeah, and someone has probably already commented on this, but Ben McCauley said in the post game interview that he knew his effort was sub-par, and he hoped that he had learned something in THIS game that he could carry into future games.

    Uh Ben, you are SENIOR for crying out loud!!! How many “games like this” does it take???!!! Glad you’re at least learning at this late stage, maybe you can past these lessons along to your son.

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