The Point Guard Drought, Contextualized

NCS Basketball87

NC State’s last all-ACC point guard, as you all know, was Chris Corchiani (1990-91). Here is what we believe to be a comprehensive list of other programs’ PG representatives on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-conference, in the post-Fire era:

Boston College (1) – Tyrese Rice*
Clemson (2) – Terrell McIntyre, Chris Whitney
Virginia Tech (1) – Jamon Gordon**
Duke (7) – Bobby Hurley, Chris Collins, Jeff Capel, Steve Wojciechowski, Jayson Williams, Chris Duhon, Greg Paulus
Florida State – none***
Georgia Tech (5) – Jon Barry, Travis Best, Stephon Marbury, Tony Akins, Jarret Jack
Maryland (2) – Steve Blake, Greivis Vasquez
Miami – none**
UNC (5) – Derek Phelps, Jeff McInnis, Ed Cota, Raymond Felton, Ty Lawson
Virginia (4) – Cory Alexander, Harold Deane, Donald Hand, Sean Singletary
Wake Forest (3) – Robert O’Kelley, Justin Gray, Chris Paul

* 4th ACC season
** 5th ACC season
*** Toney Douglas is a lock for all-ACC this season

The numbers speak for themselves – it’s clear that NC State has had the worst line of PG play in the ACC (ever since we voluntarily de-emphasized the basketball program in 1990). Not surprisingly, there is a strong correlation between the number of PGs on this list and the amount of success each program has enjoyed.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

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87 Responses to The Point Guard Drought, Contextualized

  1. Wolfpack_1995 01/30/2009 at 6:11 PM #

    Just playing Devil’s Advocate but “What about Tony Bethel and Archie Miller?”

    They could both run the PG spot.

    The problem with the last regime is that they did not keep a stable of PGs at all. It’s seemed that Herb never wanted to recruit a new PG for each class. He was too focused on the “positionless” system/players.

    How ironice that Herb now has James Harden and his team is doing well again. But I do not think Herb has any young PGs to replace Harden when he goes pro.

    Same thing happened here at State when Sendek never consistently recruited the PG position. You’ve got to recruit a PG every year to be successfull just like in football where you should bring in a QB recruit each year just in case.

    Again who needed a PG in the Princeton offense?

  2. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 6:14 PM #

    SaccoV, JJ Hickson was an exception, but I contend that a young kid that has other good or great players surrounding him in practice, ones that may have the ability to possibly lower that kid’s self esteem for at least a year or two, that that can definitely make those highly sought afters think twice about making the leap.

    That’s what you call a power program, we have some local examples if you need.

  3. BSIE80 01/30/2009 at 6:16 PM #

    The original analysis is good. Thanks for doing this. It really opens my eyes that not only have we been short on top level pg players, but also every other position as well.

    I kind of knew this but did not realize it to be this bad.
    It also highlights that we just don’t get top talent at NCSU, any position.

    As far as Wall is concerned, if he doesn’t see how he could help this team and be a local hero and doesn’t want that role, then so be it. I’m sort of sick of it anyway. He has had plenty of time to make a decision. He is stringing this out just for the pub, which means there is some ego issues there we do not need.

    Sid should save the slot and focus on the 2010 class, unless there is someone out there we don’t know about. Cousins will end up at Memphis, not State. So he isn’t available either.

  4. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 6:18 PM #

    “We have plenty of the prerequisite necessity.”

    Ain’t that a fact.

  5. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 6:44 PM #

    Oh, OK, so let’s stay the course and plod along without the “ego” issues. Um, and if I’m not mistaken, but don’t most people who separate themselves from the crowd and assume ‘leadership’ roles, have some level of what we’re calling “ego”. Not that all of them need to be the center of attention all of the time, but they do have an inner ego that drives them anyway.

    Dare I say it, but I’ll bet even some would say that even Obama himself, has an ego.

    Whoa, wait a minute, there’s some noise outside. What the HELL, a black helicopt……………

  6. SouthernWolf 01/30/2009 at 7:14 PM #

    redfred2 do you really believe in your heart of hearts that if John Wall comes to NCSU we will suddenly be a team that will have a winning record in the ACC next year?

  7. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 7:16 PM #

    I just realized, that last post may be somehow misconstrued?

    I was only joking about the secret service.

    Maybe I shouldn’t do that anymore, at all.

  8. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 7:24 PM #

    SouthernWolf, I haven’t said anything even halfway resembling that. But, I would like OUR chances better with Wall, then with him somewhere else.

    Again, people are down the coaching, and they would have been just as bad with regards to FB this season, IF, TOB wasn’t TOB, and he hadn’t already proven himself elsewhere. But, even TOB didn’t look so great without a SINGLE missing component. And like I posted before, that was *ONE* element missing from a roster that dwarfs the numbers that are required to put a team out on the BB court.

  9. SouthernWolf 01/30/2009 at 7:34 PM #

    and you believe that John Wall is more likely to be that element than Lo Brown? I think what has got most state fans excited about football this year is that Russell Wilson is going to be here again with even more time to develop players around him and more time for him to develop improved chemistry with those players. I am not sold that the whole 1 and done thing is good for our BB program or anyone’s BB program.

  10. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 8:08 PM #

    That makes perfectly good sense, and I know I was the one who brought the FB/BB comparison up to begin with, but the stability of a FB roster is generally not affected by as many early defections percentage wise, as is BB. I don’t like it, but it seems like it’s the NBA’s choice as to whether they desire to rule the planet, or not. That is the nature of college BB these days, and UNTIL we have a BASKETBALL P-R-O-G-R-A-M that can raise some eyebrows(in a completely positive manner) then if we do have the good fortune of getting in the top recruits, then all we can do is to pretty much expect them to leave at their first opportunity.

    OTOH, see one of my countless and earlier posts. #28 or 29, I think it was.

  11. howlie 01/30/2009 at 8:32 PM #

    Nice insight and article. Bottom line stuff.

  12. choppack1 01/30/2009 at 8:51 PM #

    “The problem with the last regime is that they did not keep a stable of PGs at all. It’s seemed that Herb never wanted to recruit a new PG for each class. He was too focused on the “positionless” system/players.

    How ironice that Herb now has James Harden and his team is doing well again. But I do not think Herb has any young PGs to replace Harden when he goes pro.

    Same thing happened here at State when Sendek never consistently recruited the PG position. You’ve got to recruit a PG every year to be successfull just like in football where you should bring in a QB recruit each year just in case.

    Again who needed a PG in the Princeton offense?”

    Wolfpack_1995 – You make a good point. HWSBN wasn’t going to recruit a PG w/ every class. It wasn’t that he didn’t recruit PGs – he did. He recruited Chris Paul, Mustafa Shakur and of course, Chris Wright. He just didn’t build his team around them.

    I always thought – that the modified PO that HWSBN ran would have been MUCH MORE effective w/ a special PG because the spacing would have yielded plenty of layups/slam dunk opps from penetration.

    I don’t know if Sidney will bring in a PG every year, but I think he’ll always try to have at LEAST 2 on the roster at one time. For the first 2 years, he’s shown sign of being very rigid when it comes the positions of his players – I think that the college game requires more flexibility. The good news is that he’s shown signs of being a little more flexible.

  13. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 9:01 PM #

    Chop, “Dan” and I used to have a running debate as to how much difference a true PG would have made in Herb’s particular version of the PO. I guess you know what stance I was taking on that subject. 😉

    I miss ol’ Danny Boy, he could really be rubbing my nose in some pooh about right now, but he doesn’t show up around here much anymore.

  14. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 9:14 PM #

    I’ll be there at the game tommorrow, with someone who says that they have some GOOOD news involving NC State BB, but who also says he isn’t going to tell me anything else until I get there. ???

    I’m guessing that he is just toying with my mental instability. It’s a cruel, cruel world out there.

  15. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 9:47 PM #

    Had a momentary lapse and thought of something that is actually related to the header, but besides Juan Dixon, I believe Randoff Childress’ name is also missing from that list above.

  16. turnoffthetv 01/30/2009 at 9:50 PM #

    This post must definitely be directed at newbies and youngsters. Because anyone that has followed this program for a couple of decades already knows this info. If it has been directed at the old school crowd, well then maybe I guess I need to be reminded how bad our point guard play shapes up with duke and unc every now and then. Oh I almost forgot, I get reminded from december to march every year since corchiani’s departure. Nice Analysis, nonetheless.

  17. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 10:05 PM #

    ^Hey, don’t forget that there was a time there when we actually had the good fortune of being positionless, so you can’t really expect anyone to feel sorry for you about those years.

  18. Rufftown Wolf 01/30/2009 at 10:39 PM #

    If Wall is going to be one and done in all truth the pack doesn’t need that. I would rather have Mays develop and run the show. We need guys that want to stay a while.

  19. Ed89 01/30/2009 at 10:45 PM #

    “I am not sold that the whole 1 and done thing is good for, our BB program or anyone’s BB program.”

    While this may or may not be true, the number one pick in last year’s draft was a “one and doner” Derrick Rose. They got to the Nat’l Championship Game, and should’ve won it. They got one of the top recruits this past year, Tyreke Evans. They’ve got a commit from Xavier Henry, the #1 recruit on many boards. They are on the final lists of Wall and Cousins. They beat ECU a couple of nights by 20, and keep winning about 30 games a year. It doesn’t sound like one and done has necessarily hurt them. I’m just sayin……..

  20. wufpup76 01/30/2009 at 11:03 PM #

    ^It’s a fair point Ed, but for this season Calimari has himself a squad that is average at best in one of the power conferences

    I’ve seen them play several times, and it is UGLY … They are in bad shape at PG after Rose’s departure (I would almost dare say they may be in worse shape than we are this season), and almost no one on their roster can shoot the ball (the one guy who can was coming off the bench)

    I’m not arguing against your point, merely saying that if you get all the blue chippers that do leave year after year you’re going to have at least a few seasons like Memphis has run into this season – with a severely off-kilter roster that produces some really ugly ball 🙁

  21. Ed89 01/30/2009 at 11:14 PM #

    And I agree with you, Wufpup. Calimari wants to win, and the “student/athlete” notion doesn’t pop into his head very often. I think you need a good mix. Truthfully, what you need is to recruit “one and done” talent, and hope they stay 2-3 (or even 4)years. While I generally wouldn’t want to go after one and done talent, Wall would be an exception in that we have Harrow coming in the next year. He would be a stop-gap measure. I think he’d have an unreal type of fanfare here, whereas at Memphis, he’d be just another in a long line. I’m not sure about Cousins, but the two together would be tough. I do think getting a top quality 4/5 is probably more important than landing Wall. Both Degand and Mays will keep improving. With Wall, Mays would most likely move to the 2 with Brown, but either way, I think we’ll play alot of 3 guard lineups next year.

  22. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 11:36 PM #

    But you don’t understand, Julius Mays, as well as everyone else on the team can benefit from the heightened level of competition during practice sessions, and they can also build confidence by watching one of their own doing the things that they run up against when the REAL competition comes to town. It’s like any competition, only a very select few have that magic something that drives them to improve all by themselves, and when none of their close peers are consistently pushing or requiring it of them.

    Admittedly, a majority of the players do have to be of a proper mindset in order for that theory to hold water. But if we still have players that are more worried about being upstaged, and threatened by their own teammates, even more than they care about actually winning collegiate BB ballgames together, and as a TEAM, then we are still stuck in a world of self perpetuating do-do.

    One which only a good and thorough flushing, of the entire system, can cure. You know, a flush like that little greasy guy, the absolute picture of health, sleazy looking sort of a skinny guy is always advertizing about with his “Ultimate, 50 Weight/High Detergent, Bowel Cleansing for Good HeaLth (and Small Engine Repair)” system.

    But seriously, everyone is going to struggle after losing a player that they depend so heavily on, such as a Derrick Rose. All of the other players follow his lead, then phoof, he’s gone.

    That’s where as a coach you have to BUILD YOUR WAY UP to a higher plane by having a few really talented players to start with, and then being watchful to continue to increase that overall talent level by whatever amount that you can as you go further along. If the Memphis players are now getting the opportunity and still simply can’t shoot a BB, that really doesn’t have much to do with Derrick Rose anyway.

  23. BJD95 01/31/2009 at 12:12 AM #

    Guys, we have a PG coming in for 2010-11. A one and done makes perfect sense as a stopgap measure.

  24. MrPlywood 01/31/2009 at 4:52 AM #

    “But you don’t understand, Julius Mays, as well as everyone else on the team can benefit from the heightened level of competition during practice sessions…”

    ——

    How da hell can I make my teammates better by practicin’?

    Signed, Allen Iverson

    (sorry, couldn’t resist)

  25. Wufpacker 01/31/2009 at 6:29 AM #

    Thank you SFN!!! I’ve been saying this exact same thing for years and years!!!!

    This is exactly why we’ve be so down for so long. We’ve gotten quality players (semi quality at times, admittedly) at other positions over the years. In fact at times in the past 5 or 6 years we’ve had downright good teams EXCEPT at the point.

    If you don’t have anyone to get the ball where it needs to go, consistently, without constant turnovers, you WILL NOT WIN CONSISTENTLY. Teams without a consistent and reliable ballhandler/passer will wilt under pressure (ie conference and/or tournament play).

    If HWSNBN had brought in even one ALL-ACC caliber point guard in his last 4 or 5 recruiting classes, he would still be here…he would be winning championships, he would be seen as a great coach by NCSU fans (most of us, anyway)

    If Lowe had brought one in, last year would have been VERY different…this year too probably. Lowe still has time, but he’s running out. And who knows, maybe he’s already recruited THE ONE. Maybe its Mays. Maybe not…who knows.

    But over the long term, one thing is for sure… no good point guards = No consistent winning = No job security

    Look at the teams on the list…its no accident that Duke has 7, Carolina has 5. Winning. Consistency. It starts at the point…literally. If you have nowhere to start you have nowhere to go.

    And the point doesn’t have to be flashy, he doesn’t even have to be a big scorer most of the time (although the ability to at least be an outside threat, and to dribble penetrate does help immeasurably)…2 good examples…Sidney Lowe and Monte Towe.

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