The Point Guard Drought, Contextualized

NCS Basketball87

NC State’s last all-ACC point guard, as you all know, was Chris Corchiani (1990-91). Here is what we believe to be a comprehensive list of other programs’ PG representatives on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-conference, in the post-Fire era:

Boston College (1) – Tyrese Rice*
Clemson (2) – Terrell McIntyre, Chris Whitney
Virginia Tech (1) – Jamon Gordon**
Duke (7) – Bobby Hurley, Chris Collins, Jeff Capel, Steve Wojciechowski, Jayson Williams, Chris Duhon, Greg Paulus
Florida State – none***
Georgia Tech (5) – Jon Barry, Travis Best, Stephon Marbury, Tony Akins, Jarret Jack
Maryland (2) – Steve Blake, Greivis Vasquez
Miami – none**
UNC (5) – Derek Phelps, Jeff McInnis, Ed Cota, Raymond Felton, Ty Lawson
Virginia (4) – Cory Alexander, Harold Deane, Donald Hand, Sean Singletary
Wake Forest (3) – Robert O’Kelley, Justin Gray, Chris Paul

* 4th ACC season
** 5th ACC season
*** Toney Douglas is a lock for all-ACC this season

The numbers speak for themselves – it’s clear that NC State has had the worst line of PG play in the ACC (ever since we voluntarily de-emphasized the basketball program in 1990). Not surprisingly, there is a strong correlation between the number of PGs on this list and the amount of success each program has enjoyed.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

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87 Responses to The Point Guard Drought, Contextualized

  1. packbackr04 01/30/2009 at 2:14 PM #

    From the above article^^^

    Wall, 6-foot-4 from Word of God Christian Academy in Raleigh, N.C., said he currently is “leaning toward Kansas and Memphis, not specifically in that order.”

    He also has Baylor, North Carolina State, Oregon and Kentucky on his list.

    “Those are the two coaches who I’ve had the best connection with so far because they’ve been in for in-home visits,” Wall said of Bill Self and John Calipari.

  2. Noah 01/30/2009 at 2:19 PM #

    Syracuse had a pretty good PG on that team with Carmelo Anthony. Gerry McNamara was good, he just wasn’t NBA material.

    I’m trying to think of the last national title team that didn’t have a good point guard. Maybe the ’88 Kansas team. Oklahoma that year had the big backcourt with Mookie Blaylock and Ricky Grace.

  3. wufpup76 01/30/2009 at 2:34 PM #

    ^McNamara was good, can’t remember if he was all conference that season … he was effective if not dominant

  4. Wolf Dog 01/30/2009 at 2:50 PM #

    Quality point guards didn’t line up for our former system. Degand is coming around and hopefully his play will open the eyes of recruits in the future. They need to see we want to push the ball up the floor.

    Thought for Saturday. UNC is beatable especially when the opposing team’s point guard plays well. Degand is quick enough to handle UNC as long as he plays a smart game and we do more than feed MaCauley in the post, we could pull the upset! Hope to see Costner on Psycho T, Hans not having as good a year. Everybody finally learned his moves are slow and playing him straight up without fouling him makes him an average player. Gp Pack!

  5. Packster 01/30/2009 at 2:56 PM #

    I always thought Donnie Seale was one of the worst players who could be holding the ball when the game was on the line. It is kind of surprising to see his name in that group. I do remember when he helped propel us to at least one win over UNX though.

  6. Alpha Wolf 01/30/2009 at 3:06 PM #

    I wonder if Wall NOT coming here might be for the best. There are already minor NCAA violations trailing him around (Self/Kansas.) He’s going to be a one and done anyway, and then its off to the NBA.

    Ask K-State how that one year thing has worked for the long-term viability of their program.

    Really, we need to have guys for at least three years that have rounded games and a team attitude. A one year guy seems to be in it for himself by definition.

  7. happypackdad 01/30/2009 at 3:12 PM #

    Hodge played point a lot during his tenure at NCSU.

  8. choppack1 01/30/2009 at 3:15 PM #

    Wolf Dog – the problem is really – quality PG’s don’t grow on trees.

    Our staff – w/ 2 former PGs, has brought in 4 guys they have played at the point:
    Degand (a RS junior), Mays, (a freshman), Javi (a soph) and Marques Johnson (a transfer)

    Not one of these guys guards has shown the consistency of a Justin Gainey or has even been the same quality as a senior Clifford Crawford. This doesn’t mean that Degand or Mays want be equal or better than those two. I just think it demonstrates that it is hard to find a real good PG who can w/stand the rigors of the ACC.

    It’s obvious to everyone when there’s a kid out there like John Wall, Bobby Hurley, Kenny Anderson or Ty Lawson. But good luck getting those kids unless you are a perenial power. The key is to be able to get in early or find a stud flying under the radar…someone like a Steve Blake or a Chris Paul- you know the ones not being pursued by the Coach who can sit down in their living room and show those national championship rings.

    Perhaps we’ve found a kid like that in Harrow.

  9. Daily Update 01/30/2009 at 3:57 PM #

    alphawolf: You may be right in general about 1 and done players, however I think the situation with Wall is a different. The current staff needs Wall so that the situation next year doesn’t get really, really ugly. Assuming we are headed to a 3-5 win ACC season, I don’t see how we can expect to win more games than that next year without Costner, McCauley, Fells and John Wall.

  10. Rick 01/30/2009 at 3:59 PM #

    “I wonder if Wall NOT coming here might be for the best. There are already minor NCAA violations trailing him around (Self/Kansas.) He’s going to be a one and done anyway, and then its off to the NBA.”

    This might sound like sour grapes but I honestly would rather have Brown than Wall (for our program in its current state). I have seen them both play (Wall over 6 times) and feel that Brown has the better overall game and is a much better shooter. Brown may not be as fast as Wall but he is no slouch.

  11. LKNpackfan 01/30/2009 at 4:04 PM #

    @alpha
    There’s also the shady business of Baylor hiring Wall’s coach, so your concerns may be valid. I too thought that it may be best that he not come to Raleigh, but then I quickly remembered that we need all the help we can get. Even one year of not sucking sure would be nice. (it wouldn’t hurt recruiting either)

  12. wufpup76 01/30/2009 at 4:18 PM #

    In general, I tend to agree with Alpha’s line of thinking re: recruiting

    That said, I hope we do get Wall … Even if it’s only one season we could use any boost we can get at this time – provided that a boost does occur

    The signing itself would make a splash … I’d be willing to wager that if Wall signs here the University would be portrayed in a negative light in the media … Whereas if Wall were to sign with Memphis or Kansas it would be portrayed as another recruiting coup and how those schools “keep getting it done.”

    SSDD

  13. PackMagic83 01/30/2009 at 4:19 PM #

    I still would like to see Wall play for the Pack, but I see on rivals.com that Lorenzo Brown is listed as the 7th best point guard (4 star) in the class of 09. Although ratings are not perfect, Brown should be a better point guard than Julius Mays when he has the same experience. A lot of fans are putting Brown at shooting guard, but Scott Woods reputation as a great perimeter shooter might put him at that position if his defense is adequate.

  14. Wolf Dog 01/30/2009 at 4:29 PM #

    Choppack1 I agree, quality players don’t grow on trees at any position. they must be attracted to a program. We were not attractive to point guards in the past due to the style of offense we ran. Gladly that system is gone. Point guards do not rack up a high number of assists in a princeton style offense as the numbers above clearly prove. Running the floor passing to a trailing big man or an open player on the wing gets the PG assists.

    I think Degand is becoming a decent PG. He’s like most ACC point guards, they didn’t do all that well at first year. Even Raymond Felton was inconsistent at first. Bobby Hurley learned on the job as well.

    The great thing is we are looking better at that position now and in the future more so than we have in a long time.

  15. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 4:31 PM #

    What about Juan Dixon???

    http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1384538.html

  16. pakfanistan 01/30/2009 at 4:38 PM #

    Anybody who doesn’t want Wall is insane.

    Another theory I’ve been mulling about the team is the situation in practice. Competition is part of what brings out the best in people.

    If you’re Ty Lawson, you get to practice every day against Larry Drew. You have somebody who can push your limits and make you better or keep you sharp.

    Those dividends pay of double when Larry Drew becomes your starter. He’s more prepared to lead a team because he’s gone against top competition every day.

    It’s not that our talent on the front line is deficient, it’s that there’s nobody to hone yourself against. When we get into big games against great competition, we’re seeing it for the first time.

    A one and done player, when used correctly, can help you years down the road not just in recruiting but also in development of the multi-year players.

  17. BAC79 01/30/2009 at 5:14 PM #

    Lets assume we have a competent point guard next year. What about the front court?

    Someone above asked a question I asked yesterday or the day before, what about JUCOs? We need help now. Can we wait for front court players to develop?

  18. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 5:16 PM #

    “Anybody who doesn’t want Wall is insane.”

    pakfanistan, that’s all part of the ‘new’ NC State, and the “we’re not worthy crowd” that has taken over.

    They don’t think they’re saying it, and they’ll have other explanations for it, but what they are saying is that NC State is not good enough for a player like John Wall.

    Excuse me, but NO college BB progam is guaranteed anything more than ONE season from ANY OTHER top flight recruit in the nation. So why in the hell would anyone not want to have one or two of them in Raleigh instead of out there playing their ONE season elsewhere???!!! And, even if you only have a pair of 5’10” forwards, and a 6’4″ center to back them up, you still have to have someone to get them the ball, and you TAKE your chances with a very talented point guard EVERY time.

    I do NOT understand any of that talk.

  19. SaccoV 01/30/2009 at 5:36 PM #

    1) I’m not sold on Wall, even though I’m flying blind because I haven’t seen him play at all.
    2) Lots of very very good point guards have been found in out of the way places –Terrell McIntyre comes to mind from Hoke County High School.
    3) We also have to remember that Sid is getting better at the coaching game, and we have one more year with Degand, hopefully healthier, and Mays definitely stronger, so Wall’s probable 1-year impact (as told by Alpha Almighty) would probably serve to divide the position instead of strengthen it.

    For these reasons, I agree with Alpha. Let Wall go wherever he wants. He’s not going to stay there long, so why not continue to develop players instead of hording them. UNC is beginning, in my estimation, to pay a hefty price for player hording (especially at center). I want NC State to be an imposing threat consistently, and for that, John Wall will not help.

  20. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 5:40 PM #

    What happened with JJ Hickson was that he was ACC-ready from the gitgo. It showed from day one of practice that there was another level of HS recruit available out there, and that they ARE available to NC State IF someone has the b*lls and is willing to put forth the effort to pursue them.

    With that said, there DOES have to be something to challenge those types of kids during practice sessions, and it is also just as important to have something special going within the program to endear those players to that program/The University/family, in order to gain their consideration to return the following year. The problem is that no one can produce that type of atmosphere out of thin air, and you can’t really strengthen one aspect, without at least having some pieces of the other aspect.

    No guarantees or whatever, I’ll take top players all day long and as many as we can get. Then it’ll be to up Sidney Lowe to begin creating the necessary atmosphere to keep them interested in returning to Raleigh for another year of COLLEGE BB, and another, and another after that .

  21. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 5:48 PM #

    Oh yeah, and if they redshirt for some reason, another year after that.

  22. bluelena69 01/30/2009 at 5:52 PM #

    I love Julius Hodge but I would hesitate to call his a good shooting guard. He was a guy who scored out of sheer will. He had the uglist shot but made up for it with his insatiable will to win. He had a knack for getting buckets irrespective of how ugly they were.

    I cannot let this post go on any longer without reminding everyone of the scoring abilities of both Tony Grundy and, my all-time favorite NC State player of all, #23 CC Harrison. Both were legit ACC material that any team would have been lucky to have by years 3 and 4.

  23. redfred2 01/30/2009 at 6:00 PM #

    Agreed on Hodge, a dominant force and one great college BB player, but a shooter or a player that you would label as “skilled” in any aspect except willing his way to make it happen, no.

    I’m glad and thankful that he did, but Anthony Grundy became the player that he was for NC State, out of shear necessity. I don’t know if that opportunity would have ever presented itself to him at any other ACC program.

  24. bluelena69 01/30/2009 at 6:06 PM #

    OK Red, I will grant you that, but what about the sheer necessity now? I’d love to have a Tony Grundy around these days. We have plenty of the prerequisite necessity.

  25. SaccoV 01/30/2009 at 6:06 PM #

    Redfred, the problem is, NO ONE, not UNC or anyone else can convince a kid to stay when millions of dollars are awaiting them on the the other side. No college can compete with the NBA for that. What State should do is basically what Duke did several years ago, and intentionally focus on solid players with a 3-year time frame. While the majority of Duke’s top-notch recruits have not panned out in the NBA, it was good to know that you had guys like Battier and Jay Williams for 3 years of solid service. NC State can be very successful with top-level guys in that framework.

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