Clemson Game Thread

08-09 Basketball General256

Post any comments here.

I’ve copied and pasted a few comments from the OTR thread.

    Key Halftime Stats

Pts off Turnovers:
Clemson – 10
State – 2

Shooting Percentage:
Clemson – 40%
State – 21%

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

08-09 Basketball General

256 Responses to Clemson Game Thread

  1. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 5:00 PM #

    I know there are others who would disagree with this statement: But in my opinion very, very few of Herb’s recruits improved at a reasonable rate over their tenure at State. I don’t really feel like thinking enough to give examples or expand on what that comment means, but it was always my opinion while Herb was here and it remains my opinion of his carry over recruits.

  2. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 5:02 PM #

    This is a tough game for me, being a lifelong Steeler fan.

    I was supposed to go to a party and watch it with a bunch of other Steeler fans, but since find myself pulling more and more for the Chargers these days, I decided to just stay home.

  3. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 5:12 PM #

    GAWolf,

    Uh, well, uh, I, er, I, I wasn’t going to go there. 😉

  4. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 5:53 PM #

    I have to agree with chop to some degree. I had hoped that Lowe would have more immediate success in changing the culture and refocusing these players, afterall, he’s going to run into more players just like these somewhere down the line. I guess maybe with time you develop enough insight to avoid them? Either that, or you learn to recruit a VARIETY of styles and personalities so that you can absorb the ones that don’t pan out.

    Maybe, just maybe, the unyielding choice in the style of play, led directly to the unyeilding choice in the style/demeanor of the players as well? That equation did require FIVE EQUAL PARTS if I’m not mistaken?

    Maybe what we need is about five ALPHA male attitudes/players who fight their with their own teammates for PT, as well as the opposing team, with an attitude that says I DESERVE, and I’m not playing second fiddle to anyone.

  5. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 6:51 PM #

    ^CORRECTION…I may just be talking to myself now, as it appears everyone else has a life, but I was WAY TOO HARSH! on the current players in that first paragraph up there. Afterall, they’ve been here all along and what they’ve experienced during their collegiate BB playing days is, I’m sure, not at all anything like what they expected when they signed on to play at NC State. It’s also far from being what ANYONE could describe as ordinary, normal, and especially not very condusive to players who might be working with fragile psyches as well.

  6. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 7:55 PM #

    ^^ There’s nothing subjectively over-harsh about reality. If a girl is not very pretty you don’t hype her to think she’s a model just so she’ll go enter a beauty contest and embarrass herself. No coach in the world could win with the talent on our current basketball team. Our best players would be support players off the bench on any other ACC team AND many teams throughout the country.

    I’m not trying to be negative about our guys, but it’s just the simple truth. I appreciate the effort and work they give to our University and will pull for them as hard as anyone as the season progresses. The bottom line: Our talent level is significantly below the rest of the conference programs and that didn’t happen over night, nor will it get fixed over night. Truthfully, the nature of the recruiting paradox in college sports today may never let us get to where we want to be.

    The Chargers should trade LT while he has some value remaining for a Pro Bowl receiver. That would open up the field for Rivers and Sproiles and Gates. And a defense that can tackle… that would help, too.

  7. frankiepack 01/11/2009 at 7:58 PM #

    ^GAWolf Herb seems to be doing ok at ASU his players look pretty damn good I hated to watch,but I saw some of the game against Oregon.
    AS far as “Herbs” players are concerned you may be right but both the kid at Georgetown as well as the kid from Florida looking damn good as well.

  8. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 8:08 PM #

    GA, I am well aware of what Sidney Lowe is facing while trying to convince kids to buy into an ice cream stand that is way, waaay behind the times, because it had been selling just one flavor, VANILLA, for way, waaay too long before he arrived.

    But please explain your “recruiting paradox” statement.

  9. Wulfpack 01/11/2009 at 8:11 PM #

    I wish for once we could quit “the debate” and come to realize that this program is now Sidney Lowe’s program. He’s had time to bring in some players. He’s had time to coach them. He’s had time to acclimate to the recruiting scene and he’s had time to learn how to coach college kids playing the college game.

    Herb is gone. If you want to continue to blame the program’s shortcomings on 1 man that has been long gone, then go right ahead. But it really makes zero sense to me. If you want to see this program succeed, then you might want to start critiquing the guy who has actually been in charge for about, oh, nearly three years now.

    Or you could just blame it all on Herb to feel better about yourself.

  10. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 8:29 PM #

    I don’t buy the talents not there. In Sid’s first year-when Engin was on the court-we were a good basketball team. There was a chemistry that seemed to come together during the ACC Tournament and the NIT. It actually fooled everyone into thinking that this team could do some pretty amazing things come the following year. Perhaps it’s a futile game to play but if Engin were at the hull that next year, would things have gone the way they did? I don’t know myself but I do wonder and I think it’s part of what drives our problems right now; the old (and perhaps worn out) we have the parts but no one (a point guard) to orchestrate the pieces.

    I feel like it’s going to come together.

  11. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 8:45 PM #

    Eh, forget that.

    Wulf, not that it really matters, but have you ever noticed how many times the name, Les Robinson, STILL comes up around here???

  12. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 8:49 PM #

    Afterglow have head ache!

  13. com state10 01/11/2009 at 8:51 PM #

    Afterglow, funny you brought up Engin because I just jumped on my computer after watchin’ the college basketball all weekend just to post:

    I miss Engin.

    I am not a basketball expert by any means, but I never realized how valuable he was, and how fun it was to watch the team play with leadership on the floor.

  14. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 8:51 PM #

    Wait a sec. Now Afterglow make no sense!

  15. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 8:55 PM #

    Afterglow: You hit the nail on the head: Engin Atsur (one Herb player that DID improve over his stay here which I understand goes against my other thought). We had a guard that was ACC caliber. Name one since. You can’t. That’s the problem. We have no guard talent. None. It’s sort of like a football team with no QB. Ring any bells?

    The recruiting paradox is that you have to be relevant to get talent and you have to have talent to be relevant. It’s extremely hard to break into that cycle these days, and we’ve been irrelevant for so long our glory years were before these recruits were born… so our previous national championships are a pointless pitch.

    Further, I just said it seems that I recall Herbs guys not improving drastically over their stay here. Ben, Courtney and Brandon (save Brandon at times this year) seem to have gotten WORSE.

    We just suck. Plane and simple. I can’t remember who made this point previously but we can’t know if it’s poor coaching when NO COACH could win in the ACC with this team. It’s like a NASCAR team trying to size up its driver when the car they give him won’t go as fast as the others on its best day.

  16. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 8:58 PM #

    ^^Yes. He was an amazingly heady player who just by merely managing the game, not to too much and too little but yet at the same time doing a ton for our team. He made smart passes, he didn’t turn the ball over and was even playing out of position as he was more of a shooting guard.

  17. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 9:07 PM #

    A kid who has the basic skills to play basketball who is learning the “game” is told about 5 major cardinal rules to handle the ball effectively.

    1) Don’t dribble unless you have a reason to.
    2) Don’t pick up your dribble unless you know what you’re going to do with the ball after you do.
    3) Keep your head up when you dribble (or pick up your dribble).
    4) Don’t pick up your dribble in a corner or just over half court.
    5) Anticipate a double team and get rid of the ball before it gets to you.

    We break ALL of these on EVERY possession.

    The prize for doing so: We lose.

    Against Clemson I saw guys pick up their dribble during an obvious but unanticipated double team just over half court put their heads down because they have no idea what they were going to do with the ball and then just heave it.

    Another sin we commit regularly when we crumble under full court pressure and heave a desperation pass that heads out of bounds is “save” it back under our own basket. That’s elementary and committing this sin is evidence that we’ve got a team full of knuckle heads.

  18. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 9:09 PM #

    So I guess what I was saying is that I think (excluding our guards) we have talent, just no way to tap it. You’re right GAWolf, we have no guard play. But our team is not much different (personnel wise) from the one that made that incredible run in Lowe’s first year.

    http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/2/615676.html

    That team (minus Engin and Grant) is the same team that is on the court this season, right down to Horner. Our guards are the problem-which isn’t saying anything new.

  19. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 9:10 PM #

    So I guess what I was saying is that I think (excluding our guards) we have talent, just no way to tap it. You’re right GAWolf, we have no guard play. But our team is not much different (personnel wise) from the one that made that incredible run in Lowe’s first year.

    That team (minus Engin and Grant) is the same team that is on the court this season right down to Horner. Our guards are the problem-which isn’t saying anything new.

  20. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 9:18 PM #

    We made that run because we had ONE GUARD. We ran out of miracle gas because we had ONE GUARD.

    Honestly that “run” was the worst thing that could happen to Sid. It was the absolute worst thing. We were bad that year. That just gave us an unreal assessment of our cupboard and a false sense of hope. Losing Engin was the last glimmer of basketball we’ll see for some time to come. Losing Grant was an addition by subtraction. We’ve got a couple more of those to go before we’ll have a nucleus upon which we can develop a serviceable team, and that will be several years AFTER that point.

    We score like a girl’s high school basketball team. I wish that was an exaggeration.

  21. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 9:19 PM #

    It is amazing how un-fundamentally sound we play in just those five points alone GAWolf. The only thing I can attribute it to is the guard play not being up to the tempo it needs to be. Hopefully this will change with experience.

  22. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 9:22 PM #

    AND WHY DO WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM???

    BECAUSE OUR PREVIOUS COACH BELIEVED YOU DIDN’T NEED POSITION PLAYERS TO WIN AT BASKETBALL.

    He finally scrapped this crappy plan and went after Wright and whiffed
    (or we whiffed after Herb decided to leave I guess). By the time that happened we had a team full of middle-sized big men who can’t shoot, dribble, pass or think. Yay for us.

    Also, Herb’s success at ASU is at least partly due to lessons he learned here and the application of those in weaker conference with less recruiting competition. I’m happy for him and wish him well, but had we fired him after year 5 we would be 5 years further into the fix and we wouldn’t be sitting here complaining about how we don’t have a single guy who can dribble from one end of the court to the other with a hand in his face.

  23. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 9:24 PM #

    We had seven players. If my memory serves me correct, at times Engin didn’t play because of a hammy injury-or played but played hurt. Come to think of it, Grant played point when he was out, didn’t he?

    As maybe it was the worst thing that could of happen, it gives me a glimmer of hope that perhaps when the right pieces fall into place, something like that can happen again but with a fuller tank.

  24. GAWolf 01/11/2009 at 9:27 PM #

    Look at the record of that team with Gavin at the point versus Engin.

    Gavin was a terrible point guard. terrible. And even more terrible… he’d start at point on this team.

  25. com state10 01/11/2009 at 9:29 PM #

    It still does not explain Sid’s substitution pattern the other day. I simply don’t understand and just hope that he’s right somehow.

    I could be wrong but I don’t remember Mays playing much if at all in the first half, simply confusing.

    I wish he would scrap this year, and build for the future with the recruiting class he already has signed for next year and has started to sign for ’10.

    DEAC’s up one!

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