Clemson Game Thread

08-09 Basketball General256

Post any comments here.

I’ve copied and pasted a few comments from the OTR thread.

    Key Halftime Stats

Pts off Turnovers:
Clemson – 10
State – 2

Shooting Percentage:
Clemson – 40%
State – 21%

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

08-09 Basketball General

256 Responses to Clemson Game Thread

  1. tvopack 01/11/2009 at 1:48 AM #

    Is this Tyler Hans’ son? picture

  2. oldflyingfarmer 01/11/2009 at 6:17 AM #

    That is a great one, tvopack.

  3. choppack1 01/11/2009 at 6:25 AM #

    “But facts is facts bra’, the trio aren’t leaders, have proven to pout when it isn’t goin’ their way ( Fells excluded from that ) and are collectively leading this team in costly turnovers. The fact that they are in low double figures doesn’t sway me to be more accomodating.”

    No, the 3 aren’t leaders – but guess what, not everyone is. What the 3 are – to a certain extent – is ACC level basketball players, who at least for their position, demonstrate a close to adequate skill level.

    Look, these 3 guys won’t go down as my all time favorites, but they’ve been here for 4 years, stayed out of jail and academically eligible thus far – so I’m not going to blame them for shortcomings. About the sulking – who knows – maybe they were po’d for a reason.

    As PAJ noted, all 3 do have shortcomings – but some of that has to fall on the staff as well…after all, this trio has spent more time w/ Lowe and his staff than w/ Sendek and his – ALOT MORE. If you look at the other guys who have been here a while – Horner, Ferguson, Degand, Javi, Tracy Smith, or last year Marquez Johnson – you see the same lack of leadership and abscence of complete basketball skills – except, you see less ability to score, pass and rebound for the associated positions (with the exception of Tracy Smith.)

    I find it a little disturbing that folks are putting the blame on 18-23 year olds instead of the staff. To me, that sounds like a reach…especially when the staff has had 3 years to mold, motivate and teach these guys or get them out of Raleigh. The fact is this – without these 3 guys, we arguably have a team that Les Robinson’s squads would blow out. And you know what, I don’t blame those other guys or the 3 for that…

  4. Rochester 01/11/2009 at 7:55 AM #

    I’m with choppack on this. Ben, BC and Courtney have their shortcomings, but they have plenty of good moments as well, especially Costner. I think most of his problems last year were as a result of his injuries. If he hadn’t tried to come back maybe we wouldn’t have seen him struggle so much and have those negative memories to tar him. As to the front court’s turnover issues, I think that is closely related to our lack of a floor general point guard. If we had someone who could properly distribute the ball, some of those other turnovers would go away.

    None of the big 3 are good leaders, true. But no one on our team is. There are two possibilities here. 1. We don’t have anyone on the roster with natural leadership ability. 2. Our coaching staff has not developed any leaders. In addition to teaching young men basketball skills (which is certainly arguable in our case), a coaching staff should also be teaching them, or at least a few of them, how to lead. The last leader we had on this team was Engin Atsur.

    Typically the point guard would be one of the leaders on a team. Therein lies a problem in our case, as we don’t even have a true No. 1 among our trio of point guards. Perhaps Mays can develop those qualities, as he shows a promising basketball IQ, but by the time Ryan Harrow shows up (or even John Wall), Mays won’t likely be the starting PG. Trevor Ferguson sometimes shows a little leadership, but he hasn’t really spent enough time on the floor for most of his career to be more than the leader by default.

    Does this team have team captains? If so, who are they and how were they chosen? Typically teams give that honor to upperclassmen, but that’s not a great way to pick a leader. Just because someone is older, doesn’t give them great leadership qualities. If so, we should elect a 100-year-old guy to be president.

  5. Rick 01/11/2009 at 8:35 AM #

    Every time Javy and Horner came in the game turned and it was not in our favor. Neither should ever ever leave the bench.

    I sometimes wonder why I bother with sports. Wolfpack, Canes and Panthers. I pull for a bunch of losers.

  6. pack44fan 01/11/2009 at 10:09 AM #

    I think the thing that is most worrisome with this team is the lack of improvement, players and coaches. No one thinks this team will compete for a championship of any kind. As a fan, I want to see a team that fights and plays with a sense of urgency, a team that is on the same page with its coaches. I just don’t see it. If Lowe is going to be successful, it is obvious he is going to have to be open to change. In my opinion, it would be imperative to be bring a veteran assistant coach who not only know the x’s and o’s, but knows how to run a program.

  7. Wulfpack 01/11/2009 at 10:18 AM #

    “And somebody take Jake Delhomme out of the game, for god’s sake.”

    What a complete waste of time it was for me to go to that game. Jake Delhomme SUCKED. Way to go, way to throw away the best regular season in franchise history. And where was our defense? What a let down. We often have called Clemson football the carrot. Now, the Panthers are the carrot. Get our hopes up and let them down like it’s nobody’s business. If you were at the game, you saw the energy early on. The Bank was going nuts. But then, all hell broke loose, and Jake became a Cardinal for the day. Oh well, a terrible sports day.

    As for he Pack, I too find it humorous folks are saying “what did you expect? We lost to a better team.” Well, no crap Sherlock, that’s why we’re all peaved. Clemson’s program is well ahead of ours. And if you need a history lesson, it hasn’t always been that way.

    I’ve now seen all the ACC teams in action and I’d have to say we are entrenched in the bottom 3. Sure, it could change. But it has to happen pretty darn fast or else this season will go down much like the previous two have. If you want to get mathmatical and not have to rely on a miracle ACC tourney run, we’re going to have to go about 8-7/9-6 the rest of the way to have a chance to be where we belong. And that’s a real tall order.

    There is no doubt there is zero leadership on this team. You can put that on the players if you would like. But as a coach, you have to find a way to inspire someone, anyone, to take control of the team. It’s part of the job, comes with the territory, and if you can’t cultivate that then it will show up on your win/loss record and it is the coach’s issue. Sid hasn’t done this.

    And yes, Costner, Mac and Fells is all that we have got to have any real chance. Nobody has come in ahead of them or else we would have seen it by now. Although I am baffled why Smith isn’t getting more minutes. What’s going on there?

  8. pack44fan 01/11/2009 at 10:42 AM #

    We are definitely one of the three worse teams in the ACC and there is a real possiblity we may end up last. I never have been to one of Lowe’s practices so I don’t know how much time is devoted, if any to individual/position improvement. That being said, this team is weak fundamentally. In my opinion, more time needs to be devoted to individual improvement, dribblilng, shooting, passing, defensive stances, the whole nine yards. I have seen little, if any, indivdual player development since Lowe has been at NCSU. This is not the NBA, and if he is relying on players to develop themselves, then we and he is in real trouble.

  9. PAJ 01/11/2009 at 11:12 AM #

    Coaches can give players off season goals, work out requirements, improvement targets, whatever, but it’s the player’s responsibility to take the initiative to achieve the desired results. Contact in the offseason is limited, so players have to take it upon themselves to do the work. Does anyone doubt that our guys have been given offseason goals?

    As much as I hate to say it, take a look at Hansbrough. He leads that team because he sets the tone. If you want to play with him you better be ready to match his intensity. He has improved his game over the years by adding range to his jump shot and improving his ability to defend. I’m sure Roy gave him some goals and areas to work on, but does anyone really think Roy has to ride Hansbrough to get him in the gym to work on his game?

    Last year we had a guy like that and the upperclassmen couldn’t handle the competition. It should be no surprise they cannot handle the competition from dedicated and motivated players from other teams. I think Sid and co. are doing everything they can think of to get these guys to improve, but unless there is strong internal motivation to truly improve, they’ll do just enough to keep playing. Until we have complete turnover to Sid’s kids, we’re capped by the talent / desire level of this group of players.

  10. Classof89 01/11/2009 at 11:24 AM #

    Costner, McCauley and Fells situation this year reminds me of the Ron Kelley/Kenny Inge/Damon Thornton front court we had in the early Sendek era…Lordy, we had such high hopes early on after that run to the ACC final in Herb’s first year, but over the course of their careers, what we saw was only occasional flashes of competency. Lets face it, we were counting on marginal ACC players (who might play 12-18 minutes and average 6-8 points on your average good ACC team) to be the heart and soul and carry the team then, and we are in the same situation now. Folks, they simply aren’t (good/mentally tough/athletic–insert adjective of your choice) enough. Whatever “it” is that separates those who succeed in college hoops from those who are victimized by the successful players, we ain’t got “it”. Where would those three be in the rotation of Wake Duke or UNC?

    What you saw yesterday was a talent and athleticism deficit, and who wouldn’t get worn down knowing that every time you play an upper division team in your league, you are going to be playing against players who are significantly better than you are? I heard the the stretch of the first half where Clemson built its first 10 point lead, and then decided to go to lunch and didn’t listen to another minute.

    Why torture myself? I am emotionally disconnecting from NC State basketball until they give me something to be excited about. Wake me up in 2012.

  11. pack44fan 01/11/2009 at 11:41 AM #

    We definitley don’t have it, whatever it is, and I think the players and coaches are equally to blame. There is a definite disconnect between coaches and players. The old motto “wait till Lowe gets his players” and “wait until next year’s recruiting class comes in” is beyond old. Those have been our motto’s for over 20 yrs.

  12. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 11:59 AM #

    Good stuff PAJ and Classof89!!!

    And I am really past the point of blaming anyone in particular. Sidney Lowe is still cutting his teeth and he doesn’t have any players in the line up who can take away part of that burden by at least trying to exhibit some leadership ability out on the court. We’re stuck, it doesn’t matter who recruited who, or who hired who, this entire thing is a cluster f’k all the way around right now.

    I know it’s not much, and some older folks like myself don’t want to hear it, but about the ONLY positives we have to “point” right now are the hopes for the future surrounding our incoming recruits, and time itself.

  13. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 12:21 PM #

    One thing, someone stated that they “hadn’t seen any player development since Sidney Lowe arrived”.

    Um, for whomever that was, I would suggest going back and reading some of the earlier and completely NEGATIVE comments regarding Trevor Ferguson, and even Julius Mays in later threads.

    I warned people about jumping on Ferguson especially. It’s notuntil AFTER a player has been given a FAIR chance to establish a pattern of play, regarding his willingness to put forth effort and at least TRY to improve, that’s when the positive/negative slants are justified.

  14. TheCOWDOG 01/11/2009 at 12:35 PM #

    To be sure, I always feel a little sleazy if I find myself criticizing college athletes. I really shouldn’t. Having been one too, I may have a tendency to view players and play from a different perspective. My view bares no more insight or relevancy than any other guy/girl in here. In fact, the knowledge that 3/4 of the writers demonstrate often lay my takes to waste.

    ( Allow me to put the cleats back on here to eventually get to a point. )

    Do you guys know that players don’t give one rat’s ass about us? The only things that matter are ME, MY TEAMMIES, and the GUY I’m competing against. We do thrive on the juice that fans provide when we’re on a roll, very selfish. We do listen to the coaches that provide us with strategy and pointers that help us beat the OTHER GUY and consequently allows us playing time. We follow experienced teammates that have garnered our respect. What we never do is listen to anyone when we make a mental mistake. Why? Because we know when we’ve f’ckd up and just hurt myself, my teammie and gave the other guy an advantage. We know and nobody needs to tell us. Mental mistakes are the single most self correctable part of competition and are eliminated only by us.

    If I try to pull a slider on the outside corner instead of taking it middle out, experience has shown me that the usual outcome is a pop up to the opposite field or a weak ground ball to my hitting side. I must correct that, can’t let it happen. It hurts me, my teammies and gives the other guy an advantage.
    If I cut a comeback route off at 12yrds instead of the planned 14yrds I know what’s gonna happen, the pass is either going to wind up 2 yards over my head and possibly into the other guys hands. That hurts ME,…..you know the rest, the only things I care about. I must not let that happen. I must correct it.

    That from my perspective is what frustrates me the most about the 3 guys with the most experience on this BB team. They know what the results of a floating pass, a forced pass or any other low percentage pass. It is a self-correctable mental error that in 3 yrs. has not been corrected and is hurting the only things that matter to me as a player. I don’t get it.

    Does this make sense?

  15. choppack1 01/11/2009 at 1:08 PM #

    cowdog – that’s an excellent point – but like I said, those guys have been throwing those passes for 3 years – they weren’t going to stop this year. It could be all 3 need ritalin – it could be that each of these 3 aren’t receiving the proper instruction in individual workout sessions.

    I do find it funny, that since Sidney has been here, he has only been able to find one player to knock one of these 3 from the starting lineup – if an fact, they are so defective.

    I won’t lie to you – I get mad at the individual when I see a lazy pass, a missed boxout (so I didn’t get too mad yesterday, because for the most part – we boxed out well) or poor dribbling. But like I said, if you think these 3 are the problem – then it falls on 1 man – he has had 2 years to find someone better or run them out of town.

    Personally,the job we did rebounding yesterday does give me hope. It’s also worth noting that if we can continue to hold our own on the board, maybe just maybe, the other 2 positions – who should be taking care of the ball most of the time – are doing so.

    And I’m sorry, but I don’t think we can assume that these 3 guys are being given solid instruction – there is just no evidence to support that. I mean, we know a couple of things as facts right now. We know that Fells, McCauley and Costner CAN play well, but all 3 have been inconsistent. We know Sid has demonstrated that he can sign or at least get commitments from big time kids…and that’s about it.

    I’m not saying Lowe is an awful coach or has a bad attitude or is clueless. What I am saying is that if you think the fault lies w/ those 3 – it really lies w/ him. I could buy it if this was year 1 or even year 2. But this is his 3rd year – and he has brought in 8 guys, if he these 3 guys are in FACT the problem, you’d think one of the remaining 7 could have stepped up in a leadership role or knocked them out of the rotation.

  16. PAJ 01/11/2009 at 1:09 PM #

    Makes perfect sense to me.

  17. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 1:41 PM #

    I think there’s going to be a positive shift. I said it before and I still believe this… that come mid to late January we’re going to see a change. I don’t know why I think this, it’s just a gut feeling-the same feeling that I get when I call the interception before it happens or the good feeling about an impending upset against a hated arch rival. It may be nothing more than hope floating around in the ether world of an eternal optimist but I believe this to be true.

    I hate losing but I didn’t feel it for yesterday’s game and I didn’t feel it against Florida. Sometimes things click at the most unexpected times. A light comes on and the rolling begins. I guess in one respect, I see correctable errors that could have been the difference in the game. One could argue that these “correctable errors” have been plaguing us for quite some time-but that’s the way it always is until a light comes on.

    There’s still a light at the end of a tunnel and it’s still not a rambling train wreck and no the sky is not falling and no we don’t need Lowe’s head and yes, when our team performs horribly, I enjoy venting just like everyone else.

  18. turnoffthetv 01/11/2009 at 1:51 PM #

    good reads above as always.

    My observations from yesterday-

    1)Javi G has no business on the court again.
    2)Tracy Smith needs more minutes.
    3)Julius Mays needs more minutes.
    4)TFerg did an outstanding job defending Ogelsby yesterday.
    5)I, like others do not understand replacing nearly the entire starting five at one time(We are not that deep)
    6)you Praise Fells one minute and then the next you’re cussing him.
    7)Why dont we foul more in the last few minutes of the game? Try something.
    8)Degand is fast but seems to consistently be out of control when driving the lane.
    9)Mays appears to be a lot more comfortable than Degand out on the court.

    My starting 5 for the next game.

    1-Julius Mays
    2-T Ferg
    3-C Fells
    4-Costner
    5- Tracy Smith

    Off the bench

    Degand for Mays and Ferg
    Horner for Fells and Costner
    McCauley for Smith

    If there is anyone else that could come off the bench and be anything close to productive I have not seen it. I have watched all the televised games this season.

  19. Afterglow 01/11/2009 at 1:58 PM #

    I like the line up. It still seems like Lowe is priming his team for events to come, farming for the future>>>hopefully not so far future. That’s the only way the rotation makes any sense to me; but I agree with your rotation-not so sure about Horner.

  20. TheCOWDOG 01/11/2009 at 2:27 PM #

    You couldn’t be more spot on with that rotation. Fits the future theory as well as it can with what Lowe has to work with. Mays in particular must be allowed to fail. He’s really the only one that comes to them unaffected by the near past. Smith deserves the same opportunity. Redinthehead….I just like him.

  21. nycfan 01/11/2009 at 2:36 PM #

    test post … haven’t been able to post here for months, just happend to wander by and thought I would try

  22. wufpup76 01/11/2009 at 3:10 PM #

    Our girls put up a great effort today in Chapel Hill against the #2 Holes …

    Our girls took them to overtime before falling short … great effort for a team that has struggled this season … Would’ve been great to see them pull it out 🙁

  23. newt 01/11/2009 at 4:08 PM #

    Come on, guys. We lost to #11 at their place.

    All of our losses have been to top-25 teams, 3 out of 4 of them on the road.

    I’d say we look like an NCAA bubble team about now, similar to our teams 3-5 years ago. We beat mediocre competition and lose to the better teams, just like those teams did. We have competed with the ranked teams.

    Yes, we need to improve, but this season is not near over. There will be ups and there will be more downs too.

    What I see is that the types of kids Lowe is bringing in now, the Mays and Smiths, look to have higher ceilings FOR HIM. We all knew the first year was a stop-gap class.

  24. redfred2 01/11/2009 at 4:42 PM #

    Yet ANOTHER good thread with a bunch of great comments/thoughts!!!

    I don’t know, and it’s like I mentioned before, Lowe did bring in a very good player who was heads shoulders above where these current guys are talent-wise right now. The talent part is not what bothers at all, you’re gonna have that at any program if the coach is doing his job and winning the battle in recruiting. It’s the lack of effort and the apparent lack of a burning desire to improve, to beat your opposing player in a one on one match up, not only in scoring points, but rebounding, steals, floor burns, or whatever, that is what really chaps my hide.

    I may be reaching here, but maybe Lowe THOUGHT that by bringing in a player who was so self-motivated to reach the next level, and willing to WORK his tail off to improve in any and every aspect, that in doing so, Lowe THOUGHT he might light something resembling that same fire in a few of his existing players? ???

    Whether all of that is hogwash, and whether Lowe just carelessly dropped all of his eggs into one basket, the fact remains that the example of hard work and a willingness to do whatever it takes to improve, should have at least motivated these current players to some degree anyway. It was VERY STRANGELY just the opposite though. It seemed they wanted no part of the player, or the inner drive and motivation that he was displaying while playing right beside them, and while wearing their same uniform.

    THAT, is a true mystery to me, and something that I do not understand at all. I also have to wonder how deeply embedded, how far reaching it’s effects, and how hard that stench will be to wash off for the those players who started their careers while it was being ALLOWED to permeate their practices, their games, and their entire BB program?

  25. wufpup76 01/11/2009 at 4:45 PM #

    Yay Philip!!

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