Clemson Game Thread

08-09 Basketball General256

Post any comments here.

I’ve copied and pasted a few comments from the OTR thread.

    Key Halftime Stats

Pts off Turnovers:
Clemson – 10
State – 2

Shooting Percentage:
Clemson – 40%
State – 21%

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

08-09 Basketball General

256 Responses to Clemson Game Thread

  1. frankiepack 01/12/2009 at 9:54 AM #

    ^And Woodrow Wilson is to blame for George W’s reign in the White House

  2. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 9:56 AM #

    You’re right – they were solid, but until this year, I don’t think that there were any burger boys on the roster. (Aminu and Woods were both highly sought after guys.)

    What were the rankings for LD Williams, Ish Smith and Jeff Teague. I remember Teague being fairly well ranked, but I don’t think LD or Ish were rated that highly.

    I actually saw some similarities between LD’s game and CJ’s game – of course, CJ hasn’t played in the last few games for us, in spite of starting for us early in the season, so who knows…

    But I guess my greater point is that scouting goes a long way. It’s great to have blue chip guys, but there are a lot of talented kids out there who can fill roster spots effectively…I really think that Lorenzo Brown can fill a role simmilar to what Teague fills for Wake. (They seem to have similar characteristics.)

    Hey, I’m not saying that this staff can’t do that – they hit some early patches, but things seem to be looking up now for this team. It’s just a little suprising that even after 2 full classes, we’re still blaming guard play for our misfortunes.

  3. Gene 01/12/2009 at 10:24 AM #

    I really think Degand will be a solid contributor, when he is healthy. He was very lightly recruited out of high school.

    Ferguson has shown great improvement in the last three years.

    Mays looks like he has a good head on his shoulders and can become a solid contributor.

    Despite the fanbases intense focus on Javi’s shortcomings, there are three less than blue chip guards on the roster, who show a lot of promise and improvement.

    Three years ago the misadvantures of Trevor Ferguson, when he got playing time, was a cause of concern for the fan base. Now he’s a solid contributor and did a good job defending Obelsby Saturday afternoon.

    We out rebounded Clemson. Rebounding was a major problem for us, for years, but seems to have improved this year.

    I guess turnovers will be the next problem area to deal with.

    There are some positives in our basketball program, but I don’t know if they will make up for the shortcomings soon enough to keep us from going nuts.

  4. Ed89 01/12/2009 at 10:38 AM #

    Guard play is the difference. I think Brown will help significantly. Losing Wright has REALLY put this team back a notch or two. Neither Degand, Javy or Johnson has played like the staff had hoped. I think Degand and Mays will continue to be solid. I think Javy has lost his confidence. He just doesn’t look the same.

    Ask far as Wake: Ish Smith 17th ranked PG, Teague
    8th ranked PG, Johnson, 9th ranked SF, LD Williams, 26th ranked SF, Hale, NR 3-star. Smith, Johnson, and Teague are the type players you need to get (Top 50) in order to be a Top 10 program. Williams and Hale are the role players you need to complement (Top 150).

    Teague and Smith enabled Wake to hold on to that lead last night. They WANTED the ball in their hands — that’s the main difference I see right now. No one on our team WANTS the ball in their hands with the game on the line. I do see things looking up, and think that Mays and Degand will be solid by late January.

  5. happypackdad 01/12/2009 at 10:55 AM #

    wake has 3 1st rd NBA picks. 90% of college bball is talent.

  6. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 01/12/2009 at 10:58 AM #

    Well State has a better record than UNC in the ACC.

    Even with that, this team and staff proved Saturday to be an absolute disgrace to the history and tradition of NC State basketball. If Sid want’s to have any fan support he must acknowledge this fact immediately.

    Sid should take a page from football but rather on his radio show announce that this team and staff are a disgrace and laughing stock throughout the country. He knows it and no one associated with team will be wearing red until they show they deserve their scholarships and paychecks.

  7. ldr of the pk 75 01/12/2009 at 11:05 AM #

    I’m getting long in the tooth, was in school and present for all of the 1st National Championship games, can remember the excitement of the ’83 miracle Championship. God that’s a generation ago. What a shame that outside of our Football program and perhaps Baseball, the Atheletic Program of NC State has become a joke. As an example of the frustration we all feel, how is that a small school like Wake, with less living, paying Alumni, a fraction of what our budget must be, continue to put out the product they do? They got rid of Dave Odom, who only took them to 2 rounds of 8 I believe (can anyone here remember the round of 8?), they hire what at that time was somewhat of an unknown, build another program, have Skip Prosser pass away, and from an untested Gaudio, still get the number 1 recruiting class in the country. They haven’t done too bad recently in Baseball, Soccer, Golf, what else? We’ve all been duped by this seat license crap. Fowler has no incentive to listen to disgruntled alumni because he has everyone in the nutcracker. Payup or lose your seats, priority position etc. Kind of like the Exec VP of a stock held company to tell the shareholders (owners), to go screw yourself. I always thought that owners told the workers what to do. Dumb me. Oh well, at almost 60 I don’t get quite as worked up about it as I once did. Hey, after about 20 years of futility, I’m almost used to it. The Scotch soothes it as well. Even in futility, I still pull for them, but I have no hope.

  8. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 11:05 AM #

    Watching Teague last night was like watching Childress a few years ago. We really need some mental toughness like this Wake team demonstrated last night.

    They are loaded – but like I said – they weren’t exactly built the way that the great teams in the ACC are built. While their 2006 was ranked 10th – the only 4 star recruits from that team are gone now. A class of LD, Ish Smith and MacFarland wouldn’t have been ranked anywhere – those were all 3 star guys. (For a point of reference, Horner was a 4 star recruit.)

    I don’t think their 2007 class was ranked higher than ours.

    The 2008 class was elite – it gives them more depth and a game changer in Aminu. However, what we see here is a combination of things – great talent, great scouting, doing a great job developing talent – and finally, a good game plan. This staff will need to excel in all 4 areas to turn this thing around.

  9. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 11:29 AM #

    “they hire what at that time was somewhat of an unknown, build another program, have Skip Prosser pass away, and from an untested Gaudio, still get the number 1 recruiting class in the country.”

    Skip Prosser wasn’t an unknown. He was HC at Xavier and built nicely on the success that Guillen had previously.

    I noticed Dino early on…He was clearly the No 1 assistant there – and you can tell the man was very involved in all workings of the program. I believe he was actually HC at Army for a few years or somewhere, and had a forgettable run. However, in a sense, he walked into a good situation – Wake had an excellent class in the wings if he could get them to sign – he had probably recruited all of them. He did – and the other building blocks that Wake had put in place – all came together this year.

    What’s lost on most folks is that last year’s team was probably 2 ACC wins away from an NCAA bid (they were 7-9). They have done an excellent job identifying and developing talent that Duke, UNC and other big dogs weren’t looking at. As a result, even w/out this years class – which was probably the highest ranked one they may have had in their history – they would have been strong. The only question is will these guys come back for another rodeo – the key ones being Teague and Aminu…but this team has the talent and depth to challenge for whatever they want.

  10. Ed89 01/12/2009 at 11:33 AM #

    Wake’s 2007 class (3 players) was ranked 28th on Scout – we were 19th (w/Hickson).
    I bet most would agree few teams have a better tandem of Sophomores than Johnson and Teague.

    HPD is correct, 90% of college bball is talent. We’re still reloading. Part of getting talent is identifying it. Wake has done well at that.

    I know this is off-topic a bit, but since ldr of the Pack mentioned athletic budgets, I’ll bring it up. One thing that I’ve always wondered about is the disparity in the “value” of a scholarship to a place like Wake or Duke vs. a state school like NC State or Va Tech. In particular, with non-rev sports like golf, tennis, swimming, soccer, volleyball, etc. I think a well-regarded small school like Wake and/or Duke (whose tuition is alot more than State’s) would have a distinct advantage for those student-athletes that do not plan to play sports professionally. For example: Tuition, room, board at Wake and Duke is approx. $46,500 and $44,000, respectively. For NC State, compare that to $11,000 for in-state and 23,300 for out-of-state. I’m not exactly sure how athletic scholarships work, but if this is indeed the case, those schools actually give the students a better financial “incentive.” For football and basketball, I do not think it is as much a factor, but I think it may still exist. I’m sure most on this site know more than i do about the subject, but i do think it can be a factor.

  11. happypackdad 01/12/2009 at 11:35 AM #

    Horner was a 3* recruit. Top150 if I remember correctly. Ish Smith was a 4* recruit ranked around top90. Prosser was a great recruiter.

  12. Gene 01/12/2009 at 11:37 AM #

    “90% of college bball is talent.”

    I have to agree. And it’s been awhile, since we’ve had the talent to compete with anybody.

  13. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 12:17 PM #

    “Horner was a 3* recruit. Top150 if I remember correctly. Ish Smith was a 4* recruit ranked around top90. Prosser was a great recruiter”

    According to these links – Horner was a 4 star:
    http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/commitlist.asp

    And Ish was a 3 star:
    http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=549097

    But you are 100% correct – Prosser was a great recruiter. From his experience at Xavier – he learned how to priortize and organize his recruiting so that he could build a roster that would compete nationally.

    “I bet most would agree few teams have a better tandem of Sophomores than Johnson and Teague.”
    You are correct – but if you look at their offer list, you’ll see that these guys weren’t the burger boys…but they were very close. Don’t get me wrong – having the most elite talent is great…but if talent is only there for one year – you have to be able to reload every year. You need to be able sign the kids who are ready to play or have a huge upside, who will be around at least 2 years. That’s why I’m cautiously optimistic about our incoming class.

  14. redfred2 01/12/2009 at 12:37 PM #

    While at looking at the recruiting back in Prosser’s days, I always noticed where a few recruits would have us and Wake listed at the same time. OR, when you looked ten players above that one, Wake would have someone else interested who we did not. We were always competing at or around the same level on the lists as Prosser was at WAKE FOREST though. He had the ability to spot them, get them, and then he generally got fairly good mileage of those less sought after recruits.

  15. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 01/12/2009 at 1:45 PM #

    “90% of college bball is talent.”

    I would disagree. Talent is no doubt important but there are many mid-majors that play far better than State. 90% of Basketball is having a capable point gaurd, at least one stud and 5 or 6 other guys that are able to either, dribble, pass, rebound, play defense or shoot or at the very least show a passion for the game. Apparently State has 10 guys that don’t have any of these skills or at least not equal to most of the 15 year old guys out on the playgrounds across the country.

  16. ktoh 01/12/2009 at 1:53 PM #

    we lack skills for sure ,but we do not have a system nor to we appear to know what we are doing out there? Les ,Lee,Herb are all to blame but are we forgetting someone here?

  17. Rochester 01/12/2009 at 2:13 PM #

    Les ,Lee,Herb are all to blame but are we forgetting someone here?

    If we’re still blaming Les Robinson for our problems we are truly suffering from a neverending victim’s mentality. That was 13 years ago. We need to let that one go at some point, like back in the Clinton Administration. The clock is ticking down on blaming Herb as well.

    Neither of them were on the bench telling Sid to sub Horner, Javi and Simon Harris into the game at the same time to kill our momentum.

    I’m obviously in the minority here, but I think we have the pieces to win 7-8 games in this league if we use them right. Huge caveat there. We need to give ourselves a chance to win by giving minutes to guys who can play and leaving the others on the bench until everyone else fouls out.

  18. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 2:39 PM #

    Rochester – I’m tempted to agree.

    And I for some silly reason, I do think we’re starting to head the right direction. Our preparation – thus far – is 10 times better than it was last year. Heck, for the first time since he’s gotten here, Sid’s actually getting a little “crazy” w/ his lineups. Mays emerging is really key. If he’s going to be effective, and Farnold is going to continue to get better – we can incorporate a couple of different looks – and Sid can put a line up on the court that has a semblance of speed.

    But like you, I’m miffed that we continue to do the same thing we’ve done in these other games against great teams – putting the “red” team on the floor together for more than 2 or 3 possessions. That said, I think we may just be heading the right direction. We’ll se.

  19. GAWolf 01/12/2009 at 2:40 PM #

    We gave Herb 10 years to become a a perennial one and done. We can give Sid at least 4 years to have a team full of his own guys.

    I agree that things are amiss in our program. I do think getting rid of our previous Director of Basketball Operations was a move in the right direction.

    However, I don’t see how we can assess Lowe or his staff with the team they’ve inherited.

    Honestly, I’m still of the opinion that 4 miserable years of Lowe to get rid of 10 miserable years of Herb was worth it. I realize others have different opinions and I respect those.

  20. happypackdad 01/12/2009 at 3:35 PM #

    “Apparently State has 10 guys that don’t have any of these skills or at least not equal to most of the 15 year old guys out on the playgrounds across the country.”

    can we not run down our current players. We have some talent, just not 3 first rd picks like wake. We’ll get there.

  21. Gene 01/12/2009 at 3:45 PM #

    “Les ,Lee,Herb are all to blame but are we forgetting someone here?”

    Todd Turner and Larry Monteith (sp?) shouldn’t be left off a list of gripes with our athletics department for the past 20 years.

    Rochester, I agree, the substitution pattern doesn’t make any sense. I can sort of understand why Smith and McCauley aren’t on the floor at the same time because they are low post scorers, with limited jump shooting abilities, but the wholesale substitutions really hurt us in the four big games we’ve played this year.

    GAWolf, didn’t the Director of Basketball Operations follow Herb to the desert as an assistant? I don’t think we actually fired the guy.

  22. choppack1 01/12/2009 at 3:59 PM #

    GA Wolf – one thing that concerns me. We keep on comparing Lowe to Sendek. The fact that we are even making this comparison should tell you something is wrong.

    Let’s face it – first off, the first 5 years of Sendek were, overall, horrid. There were some good times in there, but by and large, his first 4 years were teams that couldn’t make the baskets when they needed to and fell short of minimal expectations. The next 5 years, his teams met minimal expectations, but he couldn’t do well enough in the big games to define his tenure as successful.

    Of course, like Lowe, Sendek wasn’t ready for the job he walked into.

    Is it encouraging that thus far we can’t say that he’s better than a coach that most Wolfpack fans were glad to see leave Raleigh?

    Gene – Sid hired his own director of basketball ops – Q Jackson. He was dismissed quietly sometime after the season in 2008.

  23. happypackdad 01/12/2009 at 4:15 PM #

    I think J. Gainey has DBO role now.

  24. GAWolf 01/12/2009 at 5:04 PM #

    I agree with the last 5 posts.

  25. TheCOWDOG 01/12/2009 at 6:39 PM #

    I’ve made way too many posts in this thread, but due for at least one more. Chop, first off, ’cause you have some decent recounter.
    I’ve never used the word blame when refering to the 3 I find most disappointing and expressed precisely why. I like your stuff, but did not appreciate the inference that those views implied blame.
    No big deal, really. ( personal re-recounter over Chop keep up the good stuff)

    What is a damn big deal to me however, is the liberal use of the word blame when focused on anyone. All ya’ll if ya’ have time, go back in this thread and see how many times the word BLAME has been used. I don’t remember who might have penned it, but recall that T. Roosevelt used it.

    ” Beware of blaming the man who is merely the occasion and not the cause of disaster ”

    We should be very aware of laying bodies at the feet of any individual or a few kids playin’ the game. Critiques? Let ’em fly as every human being has the right and the obligation.

    BLAME? Save it for the most deserving. In our discussion, the BOT of N.C. STATE.

1 … 8 9 10 11

Leave a Reply