BJD’s Revised and Extended 1/4/09 Basketball Program Thoughts

After yesterday’s predictable, yet still somehow heartbreaking loss to Florida, all that remains is ACC play (barring a shocking loss to NC Central, which is currently 0-16 and 347th out of 347 teams in the Sagarin ratings). Here is a run down of what we do and don’t know:

1) NC State will compete with, but rarely beat, midrange opponents. We have “comps” to evaluate here – Davidson, Marquette, and Florida (currently 20, 31, and 33 in Sagarin, respectively). These are the teams that will compete for NCAA berths, but probably not with anything higher than a 6 or 7 seed. Who is in this category? I would say Miami (27), Maryland (32), Virginia Tech (74), and Florida State (45). The Hokies’ Sagarin is well below the other three, but VT has a clear pattern of poor December play followed up by significantly improved ACC performance. Wolfpack nation’s collective heart thanks the Almighty that we only play 5 games against the ACC’s second tier (home and away vs. Miami, home only vs. Florida State and Maryland, away only vs. Virginia Tech). BJD’s Predicted Wins: 1 or 2

2) We have no idea how badly the elite teams will beat NC State. Simply put, we haven’t played anybody in the class of the ACC’s first tier: UNC (1), Clemson (4), Duke (3), or Wake Forest (8). Did you know that the ACC boasts three of the top four teams in the Sagarin ratings? You do now. We are extremely lucky to play Duke and Clemson only once, and each time on the road – a home game would be a wasted opportunity, since we would lose 99 times out of 100 to these teams regardless of location. The real mystery here is how badly the Pack loses – could be by 10, 20, or 40. Our only prayer against UNC is mercy, which Roy Williams (who endearingly treats us like a hated rival) is not likely to dish out. Your one ray of hope is the 2/11 home date against Wake Forest – I’m still not convinced that the Deacons are that good. BJD’s Predicted Wins: 0 or 1

3) Thank God for scheduling within the lower tier. Misery loves company, and the 80th-rated Wolfpack has some this year: Boston College (60), Virginia (102), and Georgia Tech (114). Much like I expect VT’s to play above its current rating in ACC play, I expect BC to perform worse – there’s no reason to expect the Eagles to be any better than they were last year (and their schedule has been almost as weak as ours). These loveable losers constitute NC State’s peer group. Thanks to wretched scheduling, NC State hasn’t played anyone in this range (the closest being #145 East Carolina). Extrapolating what we’ve seen so far, and considering the fact that the Pack plays all Tier Three foes at home (plus road games at BC and GT), we can cautiously project winning most of these games. BJD’s Predicted Wins: 3 or 4

4) Overall, the NIT is (as it has always been) NC State’s ceiling. Applying my model, you could get anything from 4 to 7 ACC wins, although I don’t expect the full best or worst case scenario to happen. Thus, you get a 5-11 (NIT/CBI bubble) or 6-10 (solid NIT) ACC record. The Pack has no shot at the post-season with a 4-12 or worse ACC record, and Sidney Lowe would not be positioned well for the crucial 2009-10 season.

5) Timing is everything. This would be a good year to play UNC early again, and get that embarrassment over with. But we don’t “get” to play the Holes until January 31. Why, you ask? Because NC State’s only playable off guard is Trevor Ferguson, projected to miss 3-6 weeks after the 12/22 game against Marquette. That puts his return somewhere between January 12 and February 2. Between those 2 dates, NC State plays six ACC games, including winnable games against Florida State (home), Georgia Tech (home), Boston College (away), and Miami (home). Needless to say, there is a big difference in starting ACC play 3-4 rather than 1-6 or 0-7.

6) Go back and re-read my “baby steps” post for my suggestions on how to evaluate this basketball season. For the more pessimistic folks out there, I will acknowledge that a collapse is more likely than a “great leap forward” beyond the baby steps of progress that I currently see and expect.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

08-09 Basketball NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

108 Responses to BJD’s Revised and Extended 1/4/09 Basketball Program Thoughts

  1. turfpack 01/04/2009 at 10:08 PM #

    Rochester=HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Also if Carowhina loses Sat. at Wake you will need to hide all the sharp objects,firearms and rope off all tall buildings.

  2. Noah 01/04/2009 at 10:35 PM #

    Should UNC fire Roy?

    Yes. And Butch Davis! That would make me extremely happy.

    As far as Al Skinner goes, the ACCSJ did a piece that argued that Skinner has gotten more out of less than just about any coach in the country.

  3. SaccoV 01/04/2009 at 10:40 PM #

    Sorry to continue the Al Skinner Love Hour, but I’m surprised also by the halfcourt sets this guy runs. I cannot believe that in college basketball, you can have four guys at each corner of the key, and pass the ball consistently between them and not turn the ball over. Also, you have to be impressed with a coach that is 2-0 versus the Heels when they are ranked #1 in the nation. Finally, you have to love a coach that can recruit big-time, big-game players like Jared Dudley and Tyreese Rice to play a school like BC. Hats off to you, Al Skinner.

    About the Jags situation, it’s good to see another conference AD who has a distinct PLAN for life after a coach leaves, regardless of circumstance. I wonder what it would be like to pull for a school that has that kind of administrative wisdom.

  4. wufpup76 01/04/2009 at 11:09 PM #

    ^With Rice, Jackson, and Sanders BC has 3 really good components to be very efficient against man defenses with their flex offense and halfcourt sets as they showed tonight … Granted, Chapel Hole will probably not vie for Defensive Team of the Year honors – but BC absolutely laid waste to them tonight (and a ton of offensive boards help too)

    Of course, it all starts w/ the point guard … Wonder who Skinner will unearth to replace Rice next season

    Southern and Tripani are decent players, but what if BC had a really dominant interior player to go along w/ the trio mentioned? Scary thought …

  5. Astral Rain 01/04/2009 at 11:16 PM #

    This year- I can accept the NIT as a goal.

    Not next year. If the NIT is a goal next year- Sid needs to resign.
    I don’t care how “realistic” the goal is. 4 years is enough to figure out if a coach will work out.

  6. ChiefJoJo 01/05/2009 at 12:11 AM #

    BJD, I think you are pessimistic, for the record. I recall several FB games where you gave us no chance… in fact most of the season, you gave us no chance. Hell, you labled BC lower-tier and they beat UNC the same day! Glad the FB coaches didn’t listen to some of us… me included.

    I watched the UF game–my first this season. Literally have not seen one second of another BB game. Frankly, I didn’t think we played that poorly… downright impressive 1st half. Our defense was solid–very good at times. Yes, PG play is a problem, but we are in better shape than last year, and Mays will get better. The team seems to like one another. McCauley & Costner are playing well. Tracy Smith is adding some good minutes off the bench. Fells still needs to be more assertive, but that might be asking too much for a guy who’s heard that for 3 years. I like Mays… he’s got some moxie about him, but he’s a frosh PG, so we need to be patient with him. (What happened to Javi BTW?)

    Maybe it’s due to not seeing the other games, but from a glass 1/2 full point of view… Sid has a very good class waiting in the wings that could be great (Wall, Favors, etc), and we have improved from last year… so yes, we have a ways to go as a program, but I’m not writing off Sid and our team just yet.

  7. wufpup76 01/05/2009 at 1:38 AM #

    Below are some selected quotes from that bastion of intelligence, Inside Carolina …

    Before we get to that though, we all know that plenty of State fans complain about refs – myself certainly included (and we have plenty of our own “geniuses” on various message boards) … But, Holes fans? Seriously? The most physical player in the nation plays on your team and averages 2 fouls called on him per game, yet a loss is the refs’ fault … Simply WOW … To be fair, there were some folks calling these people out and saying BC kicked their a** – but it doesn’t make it any less funny!

    “I’m starting to get the feeling we’re playing 5 on 8.”

    “who the heck are these refs, some of the worst I have witnessed thus far this year, they are ticky tacky with every call, call one thing against us but not against BC, very poor”

    “I think Roy is telling the refs to quit letting BC players call the game.”

    “Tyler is a great player, but the rest of this team sucks!” (maybe my personal favorite quote right here)

    “GOOD JOB ROY>>>JUST FOLD YOUR ARMS AND STARE”

    “BC is making the most absurd shots.”

    “how many fouls are these refs going to ignore?”

    “do you think they would call a foul if TH was st*bbed and r*ped and left for de*d?”

    “wow with the missed dunk and the score at the other end…its like we are cursed” (yep, I think “cursed” whenever I think of Chapel Hole)

    “I can’t believe Woody could’ve been SOOOOOOO wrong…he said at the beginning of the game that we had a good refereeing crew. Good GOD, I’ve seen better calls from refs doing a game of nine-year-olds! I just hope that we get out of this game without getting somebody hurt.”

    “With all the hype we’ve gotten I think we’re emotionally fatigued”

    “I think we should all keep away from the media for awhile. They love to pump us up and tear us down.” (maybe my new favorite)

    And finally …

    “OMG, I can’t believe this…”

  8. Trip 01/05/2009 at 6:50 AM #

    “(What happened to Javi BTW?)”

    Freak accident led to a ECU player leaving some teeth in his arm. (Yes, a WTF?)

    Carolina fans complaining about foul calls with this statistic:
    Ranking of Fouls drawn per 40 minutes:
    #1 Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina 9.4

    Make me laugh.

  9. Sweet jumper 01/05/2009 at 7:45 AM #

    In the last 4 minutes, BC could not get within 3 feet of Travels Hopsbrough without being whistled for a foul. The refs tried to give it to the Tar Holes, but the boys in blue could not take advantage. I have never seen a more physical player get more calls consistently over a four year career. The ACC refs are brainwashed.

  10. Wolf74 01/05/2009 at 8:01 AM #

    “Fine. Basketball can go away and die.

    Let’s just stop wasting money on it and put our full efforts behind a real sport like football.”

    That is fine by me as I am fed up with watching that pro style isolation offense (which allows the players without the ball to stand around) and that switching man-to-man defense (which other college coaches use to create mismatches).

    Just one problem with Football. The ACC’s recruiting rules which keep the conference average to poor vs other BCS conferences. Other conferences can take multiple non-qualifiers. The ACC allows one male and one female per year – total in all sports per school. This gives the other schools a huge recruiting advantage as they can guarantee multiple kids a spot even if they don’t end up qualifying – which most finally do. We can guarantee only one kid.

    Heck doing away with that rule might even help in basketball. It might make the league more competitive at the top and have ESPN talking about the ACC getting 9-10 teams in the NCAA’s instead of the Big East. Of course the ACC probably doesn’t want it more competitive at the top as they appear to love being the Big 2 and Little 10.

    One last comment to those that keep harping on poor guard play being the basketball teams problem and want people to quit blaming the coaching. Well, the coaching staff has had three years to bring in guards. The guards are their responsibility. Besides high school players they could have looked at JC players. Maybe they can correct that this year or maybe not.

  11. Rick 01/05/2009 at 8:06 AM #

    I watched the second half of the UNC game and thought BC was getting screwed by the refs. How many foul shots does UNC want?

    We are not a good basketball team. We have no guards. Next year we will have at least one good guard in Brown. He is a beast. If we could pull off bringing in Wall we would have a big, skilled and extremely quick back court.

    To be a State fan you have to be part optimist and part masochist.

  12. Trip 01/05/2009 at 8:13 AM #

    Don’t forget Scott Wood, his stock is rising rapidly, especially with his rediculous 3 point shooting.

  13. Wulfpack 01/05/2009 at 8:18 AM #

    The Heels got beat because finally a team decided that they were going to be the aggressor against them. Say what you want about the flex offense but when you run it the way BC did last night you get the ball in the paint consistently leaving the other guys in excellent rebounding position. Those tight little passes really worked well against UNC and negated their team speed on defense. For the first time I can remember, Hansbrough was dominated in the post. Thompson wasn’t even existant and Davis is still a little too soft. Lawson was totally out of control and did not do a good job of settling his team down offensively.

    I hope that we can take note of the physicality BC displayed. That’s what it is going to take, and a whole lot more. If Fells can be lights out ala three years ago, if Brandon can step out and hit the three consistently, if Ben Mac becomes a mad man and brings Smith along with him on the boards, and yes, if we can figure out a way to handle the ball and not give the Heels too many easy fast break points. That’s the real key.

    I am extremely interested to see how Wake comes out against the Heels next weekend. A win and you could be looking at the new king in town. In all seriousness I do think a win would put the Deacs at #1 the way they have looked so far.

    One thing I love about the ACC is you really can’t take a night off and expect to win. Anybody can beat anybody, that’s been proven time and time again. Top to bottom the best league in the land. So much passion.

    As for us, well we are going to have to get ready to face that Clemson pressure defense. They also have a ton of guys that can score. Going to be a very nice tune-up for games against WFU, Duke and UNC.

    I’ve seen an awful lot fo praise for Skinner. And I agree. But I think it’s also about time Oliver Purnell gets some acclaim. He has really turned around that program for the better. I mean who in the hell was Clemson befoe he arrived?

  14. kyjelly 01/05/2009 at 8:51 AM #

    It is too early to say just how good or bad Marquette,Florida or Davidson are.
    A few observations from what little I have seen this year, we still don’t have guards ( now after 3 years who is to blame? foulup? herb? we also don’t have a legit 5 man!)am I being too critical thinking perhaps the coaching staff may have addressed this problem?
    Sid said he was going to have us be an uptempo team this year well that is not going to happen we are painfully slow as well as weak on “D” if anyone watching the florida game could see. We were beat off the dribble everytime down and that big guard ate us up.
    Foundementals still a big problem we were beat all game by the high pick at the top of the key without an adjustment.We gave up way too many offensive rebounds to them one time in the second half they got 7 in a row. We dribble way too much against the press our offense goes side to side with 4 guys watching the ball. And lastly we still have no clue putting the ball inbounds.Add to it the last play of the game and Sid not calling timeout at halfcourt is not only basketball 101 but it cost us the game.
    Sids first year was all about he had no chance to recruit etc ,etc when we made that run at the end of that year it was all about him,not about perhaps getting our point guard back?
    Sids second year it was herbs players etc etc ,this year we have no guards DUH am I the only one who knew this? Now lets all drink the cool aid and wait for Sid to bring in all these new top recruits???????????
    Sid is not going anywhere and neither are we so lets be realistic and stop making excuses and hold someone accountable.

  15. choppack1 01/05/2009 at 9:08 AM #

    Skinner runs a very “tight” flex. When it is executed properly – it is a thing of beauty to watch – when it isn’t – well, not so much (sound familiar.)

    BC has tough guys – and Skinner knows exactly what he wants in a player. Skinner is a “system” coach – BC runs their stuff better than anyone – but they haven’t made the noise you’d think they could in the NCAAs.

    No way I saw this coming.

    One thing I did notice – in spite of BC being the aggressor’s and working it inside – UNC still shot more foul shots. ACC officiating is right up there w/ NWA wrestling. You literally have to beat UNC or Duke by 15 or so, to beat them by 7 when you play at their place. Hopefully, this is just setting up UNC for another “head-scratching” NCAA tourney loss – like we’ve seen so many times in the past.

  16. frankiepack 01/05/2009 at 9:30 AM #

    I remember what rice from BC did to us last year ,I think he will go off on us again,it seems all of our opponents have career nights against us and I don’t think it is a coincidence.
    I saw that against florida as well us getting beat every trip down the floor on the high pick and roll ,if florida hit their shots they would have ran away.

  17. choppack1 01/05/2009 at 9:39 AM #

    I do see a similarity between how our football team started out and where our b’ball team is now. We’re actually a couple of stops/made shots away from being in the thick of (very premature) tourney talk right now.

    Regardless, when you are in the ACC all that matters is how you do in conference. While we haven’t won any of these games, our performance has been solid enough that if we have a good conference record – 8-8 or better – we’ll be part of the discussion in March.

    I still think this is a 5-11 or 6-10 team, but there’s a pretty fine line between 6-10 and 8-8 – and if our effort is good, we continue to come out ready to play and we get some improvements from Degand and Mays – we may just do that.

  18. Gene 01/05/2009 at 9:54 AM #

    “he alternative is not going back in time and making a different hire, or better yet, firing Lee Fowler a year before Sendek’s departure and replacing him with an AD who would have a solid “B list” on hand when Barnes and Calipari said no.”

    If we’re going time machine, the best scenario would be Les stepping down a year earlier. We then call Pitino to see what he says about coaching and he recommends Billy Donovan, instead of Sendek, since Donovan started at Florida a year earlier then Sendek started here; Billy would’ve still been available.

  19. Gene 01/05/2009 at 10:21 AM #

    “One last comment to those that keep harping on poor guard play being the basketball teams problem and want people to quit blaming the coaching. Well, the coaching staff has had three years to bring in guards. The guards are their responsibility.”

    Degand’s a two star recruit out of high school, who redshirted as Iowa State, before transferring here. If healthy, people think he can be a solid ACC guard.

    Johnson and Gonzalez may have been reaches, but so was Degand.

    If you’re trying to fill a position by finding diamonds in the rough, you’re going to get sift through more coal before you stumble across a true diamond.

    I think that’s life in sports. Trying to fill a position or team with unheralded players is going to produce more duds than studs.

    I think a healthy Degand would make a huge difference for this team, but injuries and inexperience have hurt us at the PG position.

  20. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 01/05/2009 at 10:38 AM #

    In the final two minutes of a game no one, no one should ever be able to score be fouled. You either acknowledge that you were beat a let the guy score or you knock the mofo to the ground leaving no shot of a ball going through the hoop.

    Until State players learn to literally beat up their opponents as effectively as Duke and UNC, State will more likely than not continue to get it’s ass kicked.

    Hansbrough is one of the most respected and one of the most ‘aggressive’ players in college basketball. He has made a career of throwing elbows and is loved for it.

  21. frankiepack 01/05/2009 at 10:44 AM #

    ^”firing Sid after this season would set the program back another 3 years”
    And how many years are we set back now? Look at our next 7 games,I think it will get ugly quick.

  22. Classof89 01/05/2009 at 11:10 AM #

    “And yet he’s still getting looks from some the best HS talent available.”

    You have got to be friggin kidding me…heck, Les Robinson managed to make it onto the final five list of plenty of the “best HS talent available”. Did that make Robinson an adequate coach for an ACC program? Unfortunately, he had no backup plan when Donald williams, Jerry Stackhouse, et. al went elsewhere. I sure hope Sid has a backup plan for Wall going elsewhere, because I sure don’t like basing the entire fortunes of our basketball program on the whims of a 17 year old…

    Though I have to say, displaying our PG ineptitude for the world to see on national TV this weekend may help us with any highly ranked HS point guard who wants to come in and start from day 1…

  23. BJD95 01/05/2009 at 12:00 PM #

    Our PG play is light years ahead of our SG play.

  24. redfred2 01/05/2009 at 12:26 PM #

    “You have got to be friggin kidding me…heck, Les Robinson managed to make it onto the final five list of plenty of the “best HS talent available”.”

    THANKS!!! Classof89, you just unknowingly added validity to what I’ve been saying all along. NC State didn’t necessarily have to WORK IT’S ASS OFF to RECRUIT back then, and as bad as it was during Les Robinson’s tenure, talented HS prospects were still waiting to see how it was all going to turn out. They WERE still considering signing with NC State, simply because it was NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY!!!

    BUT, as I’ve said many times in the past, that all changed during the following decade, when the NC STATE/WOLFPACK/BB program was morphed into some kind of mechanical hybrid that those HS recruits could no longer relate to, much less recognize as a past, and two-time, National Champion.

  25. happypackdad 01/05/2009 at 12:40 PM #

    ^ give it a rest already. NCSU bball was in the tank when Herb got here, he at least brought it back to life. Move on.

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