TOB Comments on the booing; Caulton Tudor gets it right

A question about the boos in Carter Finley Stadium was bound to be asked, so Tom O’Brien had no choice but to respond last night on his weekly radio show hosted at Sullivan’s in Raleigh.

Coach Tom O’Brien talked about how annoyed he was with the fan’s reactions to Evans play on his weekly radio show.

“It’s pretty frustrating to listen to people boo thinking it’s going to make somebody better,” O’Brien said Tuesday “By booing somebody, you don’t make them better.”

O’Brien went on to talk about how the boos could be a turnoff to potential recruits who attend games.

“I think it was a bad situation, and hopefully we’ll be smarter than that in the future,” O’Brien said.

The intention of this entry isn’t to promote discussion of Tom O’Brien’s comments, but rather to point out some very impressive statistics regarding the supporters of NC State athletics. We did this earlier in the year when NC State fans were one of the few highlights of Lee Fowler’s annual report, but with the recent criticism from at least one member of the local media this seemed like a good time to revisit some of this information. Considering the results of NC State’s athletic department under the leadership of Lee Fowler, some people might be quite surprised to find that NC State fans have been supporting their programs in record numbers by almost every measure.

NC State supporters ranked 9th among BCS programs in annual donations in 2006.

NC State supporters ranked 14th among BCS programs in capital donations the five years prior to 2006.

NC State fans have sold out Carter Finley for 8 consecutive seasons despite the program hitting an almost half century low point in 2006 with a 3-9 record. You have to go all the way back to 1959 (1-9, .100) to find an NC State football team with a worse overall winning percentage.

Actual attendance (not visual estimates like in Chapel Hill) has essentially been at 100% capacity since the 2000 football season. Here are the numbers for 2008.

NC State fans have ranked #7, #17, #20, #19, #16, #13, #17, #18, #16 in basketball attendance since the 2000 season. In 2008, NC State fans averaged 15,043 which was the 2nd highest total in the history of the program despite the team not making the post-season.

How happy would NC State fans be if the basketball program had half that number of top 20 finishes?

NC State fans made the Wolfpack Club one of five booster organizations in the country to exceed 20,000 members this year.

In the 2007/2008 athletic year, NC State fans set school records in football tickets sold (37,500), revenue from football tickets sold ($10.75 million), and revenue from basketball tickets sold ($5.6 million).

Additionally, NC State fans donated the second highest total in our history ($25.4 million). This was a combination of an all-time high in annual donations ($10.0 million), the 2nd highest total in capital giving ($13.7 million), and what appears to be an all-time high in endowment giving ($1.8 million).

Caulton Tudor of the Raleigh News & Observer had an original take on our quarterback situation today and at the same time took the opportunity to stick up for NC State fans. Thanks Caulton!

N.C. State coach Tom O’Brien’s decision to start Russell Wilson over Harrison Beck at quarterback on Saturday in Clemson likely will be debated by many Wolfpack fans right up to game time and possibly after the closing bell.

It should be, too. Based on Beck’s performance in last weekend’s win over William & Mary, there’s a legitimate argument for sticking with him. And if there’s ever been a fan base deserving of a voice, it’s the Wolfpackers. Their loyalty — in football and basketball — is far beyond the call of duty.

AD & Department Fans General Media NC State Administration NCS Basketball NCS Football Required Reading

81 Responses to TOB Comments on the booing; Caulton Tudor gets it right

  1. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 09/11/2008 at 9:35 AM #

    Does TOB understand that one reason he is the coach at NC State is because the last coach got booed every time his mug was on the big screen? Apparently booing can do some good.

  2. Rick 09/11/2008 at 9:35 AM #

    “Again, I am not defending LF or his record at NCSU. I do wonder what could be driving intense efforts here to keep SFN participants whipped up against LF.”

    Maybe what is “driving” these efforts is the complete lack of success. Especially when compared to the support they are receiving. If you cannot see this then you are stupid or have an agenda.

    BTW there is no concerted effort by anyone on this blog to have all of the authors on the same page. If it happens it is because we feel that way. We expect the best and realize we will never get it from one Lee Fowler.

  3. StateFans 09/11/2008 at 9:42 AM #

    People who complain about those boos on Saturday night have never been to a game at Michigan, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Alabama, Ohio State, Tennessee or Alabama.

    Somehow…the programs with those ‘bad fans’ find a way to get over the issue.

  4. LKNpackfan 09/11/2008 at 9:42 AM #

    Threadjack: Clemson will be starting 3 freshman offensive lineman (ht:s6).
    Cash, Young, and Irving were seen on Hillsborough licking their chops

  5. sautz 09/11/2008 at 9:48 AM #

    I will admit I have booed at games. I don’t go there to boo and I try not to, but I am a passionate fan. I can only sit on my hands for so long before I need to get vocal. I will cheer with the best of them, but when we are sucking so bad that cheering becomes sarcastic the boos are going to come out.

  6. spanky 09/11/2008 at 9:56 AM #

    RAWFS – you say the last title was 1989…
    25 nationally or top 1 or 2 in the conference is not a one or two year or maybe even a decade proposition IMO.

    Decades, even?

    1989 — or nineteen years, for those of you scoring at home — is the length of time since NC State has won its conference in either revenue sport.

    I think we won the regular season in basketball that year. But the last tournament championship was ’87… ( meaning State hasn’t won anything in my lifetime…. ouch)
    BTW- where have you been with your site?

  7. vtpackfan 09/11/2008 at 10:09 AM #

    Done here. Had a blast while it lasted, hopefully TOB will say the same after you guys are done with him.

  8. wolfie1177 09/11/2008 at 10:22 AM #

    Booing is ok in the right situations but the game was against W&M and its a back up QB. So the offense was dulled down and TOB has the team under control. We dont have Chuck “the loser” Amato anymore so no need to panic. Plus save the booing for basketball and our AD they deserve it.

    TOB is a winner and if none of you NCSU fans get that then maybe we dont deserve him. STOP BASHING TOB and get with this team. Its tough but Chuck F***ed up this program as far as personal so its going to take alittle time to get this team fixed. But show up and be proud of the team that we have right now. Wilson is a good QB but he might make a mistake or two. So boo if you wish but that will not help or correct mistakes only hurt the team.

    I am a thirty year old man and I am mature enough not to boo college players only refs

  9. Greywolf 09/11/2008 at 10:28 AM #

    RAWFS
    Sep 11th, 2008 at 9:20 am
    “NCSU faces some of the same road blocks that the Carolina Hurricanes face: tradition is not on their or our side. Top flight coaches are not clamoring to coach the Canes or the Wolfpack.”

    Great to hear from you. What’s up with your site?

    I am a Canes STH Season Ticket Holder) as well as an LTR holder in Carter-Finley and I am a frequent participant on HFs (Hockey Forums). Lavi is a winning coach and the franchise is doing well — occasionally. Lavi was not clamoring to coach the Canes in fact he was available at mid-season to replace Maurice. Lavi makes my point, not disputes it.

    The Canes have the distinction of owning the record for consecutive times missing the playoffs after winning the Stanley Cup. This does not happen to teams with great tradition. In the NHL tradition is not a one year or five year thing like we experience at NCSU with our “new traditions.” IMO New tradition is an oxymoron. Rutherford does a fabulous job of reclamation. Lavi was fired from his previous job. The Canes have taken some great players of the refuse heap and revitalized careers of several players.

    It may not be apparent to the casual observer, even one with access to a myriad of statistics, but a few years ago the Canes lost its biggest draftee and a most needed defenseman because he wanted to play with a team with more tradition. Routinely free agents decline to sign with the Canes because they don’t want to play in, live in or other unstated reasons to do with the Canes being in a non-traditional team in a non-traditional market. The Canes budget restricts their ability to compete for talent as well. I could go on but enough about the Canes except to say that developing a professional team where draft rights, players associations bargaining agreements etc., work to give teams a more equal footing, is different than a college team.

    The effing Tarholes have distinct advantages over all the other schools in the State, (which is one reason I like whipping their sorry asses so much.) The advantages granted by the BOG over time will have to be confronted, dealt with and overcome. Ignoring the reality of tradition and clamoring for the firing of an AD as the solution is in my opinion misinformed. I want to remind you that I went to State, grew up in Raleigh, attended the first Dixie Classic, waited bussed tables at the old College Inn Restaurant. I’m not some troll or LF stooge. I may be all wet about what I think it will take but my thoughts are pointed toward an effective solution. Just as I think booing is harmful in many ways, I think incessant booing our AD is HARMFUL in many ways. Just like booing did not influence Tom O’Brian to remove Evans, IMNSHO ‘booing’ LF will not influence the BOT to have Chancellor Obinger remove LF. I happen to think that like Robinson, Fowler was quite possibly brought in to accomplish something in a plan to bring all of NCSU to athletic excellence.

    We give coaches 4 and 5 years to turn football around. It takes much longer than that to turn an entire Athletic Department around. Just as I believe it is best to support whatever it is that the current coach is doing in hopes of improving, I think it is best to support whatever it is that the current AD is doing — especially since it is only carrying out what the current administration is dictating. Let’s get it on with changing the BOT. When that is done and LF has risen to his level of compentcy — which may already have happened — then we can lure an AD to take us to the next level.

    (Do I need to say that this is all my opinion and I acknowledge that we may have differing opinions?) Sports are a business, even college sports. In most cases the talents and skills needed by an entrepenuer will not surfice to get that same business to the next level. This construct extends right on up to international presence. Some managers are experts on reducing staff. Some manage expansion well but not stability. There is no need to replace a manager with one to take a company national, if that company is struggling regionally.

    I believe it is time or near time to replace LF but not because he failed to win championships or bring us to athletic excellence. How we are about Fowler is how most Christians are about themselves: When a Christian does well, it is due to God. When a Christian does poorly, it si due to his own shortcomings. Christians cannot win. And neither can LF. When something doesn’t work, LF is to blame. When something works, it was an accident or some other person did it. I guess I just don’t hate LF enough.

  10. Daily Update 09/11/2008 at 10:53 AM #

    What has worked under Lee Fowler? I give him credit for all of our results. Those results just happen to be poor.

  11. Scooter 09/11/2008 at 11:05 AM #

    ChuckAllYall — right on time with the rant.

    Agree 100% with RAWFS. Having been behind this team my whole life and a paid for tickets, WPC donation, LTR donations, etc. etc….

    Think of this like a business (which the administration fails to do). We as investors and customers, are looking for ROI. Were this a business, the shareholders would have run riot and forced the executive staff to resign, purged the BoDs, and installed new and more effective leadership. Things have gotten so bad that every time I get an email from GoPack.com or PackTracks or whatever trying to push some more golf shirts or other junk on me, I have strong urges to reply by “Please take me off your list of idiots.”

  12. Scooter 09/11/2008 at 11:12 AM #

    Grey — the problem with Fowler is not the lack of victories. The problems with Fowler start with the fact that he asked us to give and we gave…. LOTS. We gave with the expectation of results. When the results didn’t come, we expected action in order to provide us with the expected wins upon which our graciousness was based. When no action was taken, we (and rightly so) questioned this. When still no action was taken, we questioned louder and louder and louder until his hand was forced into making decisions. The decisions he made were, for the most part, poor. TOB was not Fowler — TOB was force-fed to Fowler.

    Fowler also committed the cardinal sin in managing an athletics department. He claimed the fans were on the “lunatic fringe,” etc. This is the equivalent of a salesman or store manager calling a customer stupid, ignorant, crazy, or whatever adjective you want to insert. And we all know, doing that is a big no no.

    Also, he is lazy and a lazy man has no business having any say what-so-ever over where my money goes. My patience ran thin a long time ago.

  13. VaWolf82 09/11/2008 at 11:36 AM #

    BTW there is no concerted effort by anyone on this blog to have all of the authors on the same page. If it happens it is because we feel that way. We expect the best and realize we will never get it from one Lee Fowler.

    Thanks for bringing this up. There is no hive mind in work among the writers at SFN. I don’t always agree with everything that is written or said here….just like all of the other writers don’t always agree with me.

    Hiring a successful, college coach is not easy. However, it is one of the things that is expected of ADs…well at most places anyway, just not at State.

  14. RAWFS 09/11/2008 at 11:56 AM #

    Greywolf,

    Thanks for the reply, and you make some good points. I agree with about 75% of what you said, but I won’t make this thread into a hockey discussion. Let’s just say that the Canes really need to return to the playoffs this year and that they have zero excuses not to. Eric Staal will probably have about 50-60 million new reasons to put forth 110% pretty soon now.

    As for my site, there will be an announcement about that pretty soon. It went dark last August due to double-pneumonia. I’m better now, but for the first time in my life while the drugs did their work, I got to contemplate a real fear that this could be “it.”

    Additionally, I have a *lot* of pressure from work with a new position (finally kicked upstairs, yay) and that cuts deeply into my free time. Who knows, maybe working lots of hours will help my sorry-ace tee-shots. If you see Titleist’s stock dropping it is due to lost sales from this region.

    I’m not gone, and I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to ask. Like I say there will be more to say soon on the RAWFS site.

  15. James 09/11/2008 at 11:58 AM #

    I don’t understand why it necessarily has to take “four to five years” to turn the Athletic Deparment around. And I’d like to hear a good case for why. It doesn’t take Bank of America that long to acquire and merge with a bank. Doesn’t take that long to turn Nissan around. Why should we accept that this must hold true for NC State?

    Just like booing did not influence Tom O’Brian to remove Evans, IMNSHO ‘booing’ LF will not influence the BOT to have Chancellor Obinger remove LF. I happen to think that like Robinson, Fowler was quite possibly brought in to accomplish something in a plan to bring all of NCSU to athletic excellence.

    Where is your evidence of such a plan? What would you suggest is another way to mount a campaign to address our concerns?

  16. Oldwolf 09/11/2008 at 12:07 PM #

    Grey,

    you said “I think we have been a second tier athletic program the 65 years I’ve been a State Fan. We have had some individule team success but not overall excellence.”

    I have nto been a Wolfpack fan quite as long as you since I am only 57 🙂

    I am not sure what you mean by a “second tier” athletic program. But when I was in school from 69-75 (undergrad and grad), the athletic department was at a much higher level across the board.

    While I was in school:
    In bball, we won the ACC champ in 70 (beating SC), went undefeated in 73 (and likely would have won the NC if not on a petty probation), won the NC in 74.

    In football, we got Lou Holtz and won big, followed by Bo Rein and won big. Earle was on his way oud and interim Al Michaels did not fare well.

    I think that since Esposito came in 67, we have been a top tier in baseball, during my time we had a couple of AA in Chris Cammsck and Mike Caldwell. Espsito was followed by Ray Tanner

    Swimming under Casey (183-29 record) and Easterling(331-119 record – 12 straight ACC titles), we were at the top of the ACC

    Maybe this does not constitute a “top tier” school but it ceratily is not what we have been lately.

    We can disagree with the cause of the current status, but we most certainly have been what I consider a upper tier school in athletics at lest for some stretches in many of the sports.

    I do tend to agree with you is that it is not just Lee Fowler, but BOT, BOG, and chancelor that seem to have de-emphasized winning in our athletics.

  17. choppack1 09/11/2008 at 12:07 PM #

    “Think of this like a business (which the administration fails to do). We as investors and customers, are looking for ROI. Were this a business, the shareholders would have run riot and forced the executive staff to resign, purged the BoDs, and installed new and more effective leadership. ”

    Well, you do have new leaders for the football and basketball teams. Does it mean that we need to give this leadership a chance before we start booing?

    Also, what happens to a stock if the sharelholders are questioning the leadership publicly? Does the stock increase in value??

  18. Scooter 09/11/2008 at 12:30 PM #

    ^ In the case of Yahoo (when Ichan tried to force a shareholder proxy to remove the board), the stock price jumped.

  19. Scooter 09/11/2008 at 12:32 PM #

    All I’m saying is that the donors (myself included) have given a lot to the this athletic department over the last 9 years or so. We gave so much, that we continued to provide even through what we thought were the darkest days (sunset on Amato/Herb years and beginning of TOB/Lowe years). Things are getting worse. We have beautiful facilities but buildings do not win games. We don’t pay to sit in Carter Finley and admire the craftsmanship of the Vaughn Towers.

  20. Greywolf 09/11/2008 at 12:53 PM #

    Oldwolf,
    Your sensible discussion tips off your age. 🙂
    “We can disagree with the cause of the current status, but we most certainly have been what I consider a upper tier school in athletics at lest for some stretches in many of the sports.”

    We have had a lot of success in some of our programs, and certaily we were first tier at times in our 8 team conference. I just don’t think that over the spectrum of all sports and both genders, we could be considered top tier on a national basis.

    I’m actually proud of our football, basketball and baseball accomplishments and some minor sports as well. I’d concede have been top tier in the conference in the past, but hardly top tier in ALL aspects of athletics nationally.

    I also suspect having watched a lot of football in Old Riddick warps my view. I assert that we have had to do it on the cheap for most of the time. Our cheapness reflects the University lack of commitment to athletic excellence. Nobody wants to hear it but I’ll say it anyway, things are changing for the better in North Carolina regarding football. Athletes are working out year round where they used to “just play” the sport of the season.

    I’ve said my piece and made my point that it ain’t just Fowler but the BOT and the Chancellor telling Fowler what to do and dictating policy for the Department to carry out. I would not be surprised if that did not include playing ECU.

  21. Greywolf 09/11/2008 at 1:08 PM #

    “Fowler also committed the cardinal sin in managing an athletics department. He claimed the fans were on the “lunatic fringe,” etc.”

    Scooter,
    Actually Fowler said that we, internet posting fans, were the lunatic fringe and it was said when this message board was very small. Detractors turned his words into ammonition for discrediting him. Seems like it worked pretty well with you.

  22. choppack1 09/11/2008 at 1:14 PM #

    “We gave so much, that we continued to provide even through what we thought were the darkest days (sunset on Amato/Herb years and beginning of TOB/Lowe years). ”

    Did you think the basketball and football programs would be turned around in 2 years? I didn’t think basketball would be this bad. Year 1 for both met my expectations. I found in both sports we had some very satisfying moments, but in hindsight both were a little painful knowing that in both of those sports there were some glaring problems that I was hoping I wouldn’t see w/ the current coaching regimes.

  23. Scooter 09/11/2008 at 1:29 PM #

    Good organizations have strong leadership at the top. Our failure to improve and achieve consistent mediocrity is a tribute Fowler and Oblinger’s leadership. My point is not that TOB and Lowe have underperformed. My point is that they can only move forward as far as the organization’s leadership allows.

    Grey — are you Lee Fowler? With all of the capital projects that the boosters and donors have funded over the past 10 years, how can you call it “cheap?”

    That this site was not as wide-spread at the time of Lee’s comment is irrelevant. The underlying theme is that Lee Fowler doesn’t respect the fans for whom he works. If his perceived view of the fans wasn’t an issue, I can’t imagine that it would be rehashed here over and over again.

    Also, work on your spelling (see also ammUnition).

  24. Packaholic1 09/11/2008 at 3:30 PM #

    Oh yes, the booing will surely help recruiting, you bet…

  25. redfred2 09/11/2008 at 5:11 PM #

    So, somebody up there thinks that an entire football TEAM, especially one that has been dreadfful for quarters upon consecutive quarters of football, IS, AND SHOULD BE, held back by it’s coaching staff until the return of just one person???

    Yep, we surely wouldn’t want to raise entire team’s morale by actually getting better on the football field this early in the season, or allow anyone to know that we can run some kind of a halfway decent offense on occassion. If that was really TOB’s goal, which we all know it isn’t, but if it was, then he could be considered as doing one hell of a job in that respect, because his own players aren’t even aware that they have anything approaching that ability.

    Now, if we can just keep the lid on this and keep our own player’s morale down low enough so that they don’t let the cat out of the bag before RW returns, and inturn makes everyone on the offense magically come together and play better IN ONE DAY, just because of his presence, then the OL should suddenly be able to run block and pass block, and we should absolutely beat the living hell out of the Clemson Tigers.

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