The State of State Part Two–Improvement

AD & Department Baseball General NC State Administration NCS Basketball NCS Football Non-Revenue Stat of the Day45

Disclaimer: Only facts and statistics will be stated below, you the reader can draw your own conclusions and opinions.

Did NC State’s athletic programs make progress and do better this school year than they did last year? One metric (and certainly not the only one) is to look at regular season conference standings.

State competes in 21 different ACC sports plus gymnastics (EAGL) and rifle (SEARC & GARC). In the 2007-2008 school year, 6 out of those 23 programs finished higher in their conference standings than they did the year before, 11 finished worse and 6 maintained the same standing. All 12 ACC schools compete in the sport unless indicated.

Programs that improved their conference standing in 07-08:
• Football—10th to 8th
• Baseball—6th to 4th
• W Golf—7th to 6th (out of 9 schools)
• W Swimming—10th to 8th (out of 11 schools)
• W Tennis—8th to 7th
• W Indoor Track—11th to 7th

Programs that maintained the same conference standing in 07-08:
• M Golf—7th (out of 11 schools)
• M Soccer—9th (out of 9 schools)
• M Swimming—7th (out of 11 schools)
• M Outdoor Track—3rd
• Volleyball—12th
• Rifle—1st SEARC (out of 6 schools) / 7th GARC (out of 8 schools)

Programs that had declining conference standing in 07-08:
• M Basketball—10th to 11th
• W Basketball—3rd to 8th
• M Cross Country—1st to 2nd
• W Cross Country—1st to 2nd
• W Soccer—8th to 11th (out of 11 schools)
• Softball—2nd to 5th (out of 8 schools)
• M Tennis—7th to 8th
• W Outdoor Track—10th to 11th
• M Indoor Track—3rd to 6th
• Wrestling—1st to 5th (out of 6 schools)
• Gymnastics—1st to 2nd (out of 8 schools)

Some summary statistics for 2007-08:
• 26.1% of State’s programs improved their conference standing
• 26.1% of State’s programs maintained their conference standing
• 47.8% of State’s programs had their conference standing decline
• 52.2% of State’s programs improved or maintained their conference standing
• 73.9% of State’s programs did not improve their conference standing

Along the same lines, here are some conference standing trends for the eight year time span Lee Fowler has been AD (Rifle is not included).

Two programs had or tied their best conference finish in 2007-08:
• W Tennis—7th
• M Outdoor Track—3rd

Eight programs had or tied their best conference finish within the past two years:
• W Basketball—3rd
• M Cross Country—1st
• W Cross Country—1st
• M Tennis—7th
• W Tennis—7th
• M Outdoor Track—3rd
• M Indoor Track—3rd
• Gymnastics—1st

Ten programs had or tied their worst conference finish in 2007-08:
• M Basketball—11th
• W Basketball—8th
• M Golf—7th
• M Soccer—9th
• W Soccer—11th
• Softball—5th
• M Swimming—7th
• W Outdoor Track—11th
• Volleyball—12th
• Wrestling—5th

Fourteen programs had or tied their worst conference finish within the past two years:
• Football—10th
• M Basketball—11th
• W Basketball—8th
• M Golf—7th
• W Golf—7th
• M Soccer—9th
• W Soccer—11th
• Softball—5th
• M Swimming—7th
• W Swimming—10th
• W Outdoor Track—11th
• W Indoor Track—11th
• Volleyball—12th
• Wrestling—5th

Some additional summary statistics for Lee Fowler’s eight years (not including Rifle):

  • 9.1% of State’s programs had or tied their best conference finish in 2007-08
  • 36.4% of State’s programs had or tied their best conference finish within the past 2 years
  • 45.5% of State’s programs had or tied their worst conference finish in 2007-08
  • 63.6% of State’s programs had or tied their worst conference finish within the past 2 years

    • In the past two years, every program except for Baseball either had or tied their best conference finish OR their worst conference finish and W Basketball did both.

    Notes:
    The ACC finish for M Swimming, W Swimming and Wrestling is based on their ACC championship result and not their win/loss record standing.

    Rifle data is not included in the 2nd part of this analysis for two reasons:
    • Rifle competes in both the Southeastern Air Rifle Conference (SEARC) and the Great American Rifle Conference (GARC).
    • Complete historical data for Rifle could not be found. The GARC website only has final results for the past two years and no website appears to exist for the SEARC. There is a link on GoPack.com for the Rifle media guide, however it leads to a blank page stating “No News”.

    Coming Soon in Part Three: Lee Fowler sets some standards for State’s athletic programs. Will they meet those standards?

    About WV Wolf

    Graduated from NCSU in 1996 with a degree in statistics. Born and inbred in West "By God" Virginia and now live in Raleigh where I spend my time watching the Wolfpack, the Mountaineers and the Carolina Hurricanes as well as making bar graphs for SFN. I'm @wvncsu on the Twitter machine.

    AD & Department Baseball General NC State Administration NCS Basketball NCS Football Non-Revenue Stat of the Day

    45 Responses to The State of State Part Two–Improvement

    1. Dr. BadgerPack 05/22/2008 at 12:39 PM #

      Yes, these are facts. Let’s be fair though- sports that “fell” from #1 to #2 is not really a negative. We’d be ecstatic if all of our sports could finish #2 in a given year.

      Of course, if you swap “Football” and “Mens Basketball” with “M/W Cross Country,” nobody would complain much either.

      Even in a rigid statistical analysis, I think it is only fair to at least MENTION that M/W CC and Gymnastics– while dropping in the standings– were still a credit to their university.

    2. WV Wolf 05/22/2008 at 1:03 PM #

      Dr. BadgerPack–don’t worry, cross country, wrestling and gymnastics come out looking good in Part 3. The point of this particular analysis wasn’t if cross country did well, it was if cross country did better than last year.

    3. McPete 05/22/2008 at 1:22 PM #

      MAF = “ACHIEVE”

      She hired Lee Fowler.

    4. choppack1 05/22/2008 at 1:46 PM #

      McPete – while she did hire Fowler, she also went through an agency to do so. On the surface, Fowler may not have been a bad hire. I sincerely doubt that he said to her, “MY goal isn’t to win championships. My goal only goals are to build facilities, straighten out the financial mess, have a good relationship w/ the coaches and not get put on probation.

      Keep in mind, some of the things that he did needed to be done. I do think the financial picture is better than it was, he’s also delivered on the facilities, he’s had good relationships w/ the coaches. The events that have warranted dismissal have really reared their head in the last 3 years.

      1) Calling his customers “lunatics.”
      2) Conducting a basketball search that reaked of disorganization and made his employer a laughingstock.
      3) No evident improvement on the overall conference win/loss programs in the athletic department.

      I think that those 3 items, while not “undoing” everything he has done, do warrant a parting of the ways. This parting should be forced, if necessary.

      SFN: One important clarification of this – MAF did NOT go “through an agency” to hire Lee Fowler. MAF used Bill Carr’s agency (former AD at Florida and Houston) to “approve” Fowler.

      Fowler became a candidate at NC State through his relationship with Les Robinson. Therefore, Carr’s agency did not search and deliver Fowler. It is/was typical NC State good old boy network.

      It is customary for hires to be vetted &/or approved by some (supposed) third party to provide administrators political cover. For example, Fowler had a ‘vetting” committee of three to four prominent members of the NC State community serve as his vetting committee during the basketball search. This committee met with 6 to 8 candidates. They had nothing to do with the ‘search’…only set up to provide approval or disapproval of candidates.

      IIRC, only two basketball candidates received “highly confident” votes from the committee. One (maybe two) did NOT receieve a vote of support. The rest received the average/standard vote of support.

    5. old13 05/22/2008 at 2:30 PM #

      The point is that MAF was VERY proactive in improving ALL areas of the university using the slogan “ACHIEVE” as her “battle cry.” I’m certain that if she were still Chancellor, LF would not be our AD as she expected performance. She wasn’t afraid to act, nor incapable of recognizing a mistake and taking action to correct it – something the current administration has not demonstrated at all in my view. (After all, anyone trying to accomplish anything will make mistakes. The key is recognizing and correcting them timely.)

      “Discovery” seems to be the mantra of the JLO administration. But there’s been no demonstration of any plan to use or deal with whatever is discovered! And it appears that little of a constructive nature has been “discovered” to this point, or, at least, not acted upon appropriately! It is, therefore, an overall failure.

      The most common trait of “successful” people is having no fear of failure and learning from it to accomplish the goal.

    6. ruffles31 05/22/2008 at 2:37 PM #

      These are excellent statistics. WV Wolf, thanks for these fabulous entries. I can’t wait for the third installment.

      I couldn’t help but notice that the Fowler vote of confidence is sandwiched in these articles of the State of State. It is interesting that all of a sudden, lots of information is coming out from the university about how they have confidence in Fowler. Isn’t it ironic, don’t ya think?

    7. wufpup76 05/22/2008 at 3:32 PM #

      “I will admit that I used to not have any problem with Lee Fowler and thought that he was only catching flack from vitriolic HS-haters who were bitter b/c he hadn’t fired him yet. However, since becoming a regular reader of this site a few years ago and reading such articles at this, it leaves me no other conclusion that there is a job that is not getting done and there is no accountability for the lack of progress. Either that or progress is only defined in terms of $$ and facility improvements in which case the job is getting done. If you want to talk about what’s being done with that $$ though, then a problem arises.”

      Russia – I used to feel more-or-less the same way as you on this subject … Then I started seeing facts, stats, and objective opinions / articles here on SFN, RAWFS, and other sites that have led me to a different conclusion … Funny what facts and objective interpretations will do for a decision / argument 🙂

      I like to hope that I’m smart enough not to just get swept up in a “lynch mob” mentality where everyone screams “Fire them! Bring in someone new! We want action!” … That’s why I like coming here so much b/c there are always stats and facts to bolster or diffuse an argument … That way, I know I’ve got solid facts and intelligent discussion around me when I’m yelling about something! … Regular message boards remind me of ‘South Park’ episodes where they depict the entire town getting upset about something and they all run around yelling “Rabble!! … Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!!” and no one knows what’s going on … funny stuff 🙂

    8. Astral Rain 05/22/2008 at 4:04 PM #

      The only thing that’s going to get a person like Fowler out is public national humiliation I think.

    9. choppack1 05/22/2008 at 4:30 PM #

      Uh, Astral – it will have to be personal in nature because I think that the basketball coach search met that criteria of national humiliation.

    10. Classof89 05/22/2008 at 4:34 PM #

      In one way, the data quoted above is misleadingly POSITIVE…mens soccer and volleyball are placed in the “conference standing the same as last year” group when, in fact, both sports didn’t get any worse solely because they were D.F.Last BOTH years. Really, when you are alone at the bottom and stay there, you shouldn’t be put in the same group as, say, mens outdoor track, which is hanging in there at #3…

    11. tdawg 05/22/2008 at 4:45 PM #

      ::sigh:: Ya know, I used to enjoy coming to this site every single day to see whats happening in Wolfpack athletics. I realize that it’s the off season, but getting depressed everyday about how horrible our athletics program is kinda turns me off to Statefans. I’ve only been a fan since 2001, when I came to NC State, and honestly, I’ve never really seen us be anything spectacular. So why rub our own noses in our own crap? Can’t we just be true Wolfpack fans, and have high hopes, and low expectations? Since everyone else in the University seems to love Lee Fowler, obviously pointing out his flaws constantly isn’t going to accomplish anything. I know we’ve done great things in the past, but I think, in light of all this new data, we should just learn to accept the way that things are. Change isn’t going to happen, and if it does, it probably won’t be because of this site…

    12. redfred2 05/22/2008 at 4:50 PM #

      Russia/wufpup76, you guys need only listen to Lee Fowler’s radio engagement the other day to KNOW that he plays the game. He brought breakfast, which I’m just guessing was probably expensive and way overdone, and of course he, himself had to make mention of it on the air. He’s a name dropper, he talked about his committees, about how he once spent a weekend involving college BB rules with Coach K, and this, and that, and blah, blah, blah, and on and on. But not once, did I hear anything that was inspirational, or anything that said WE ARE GOING TO IMPROVE AT NC STATE UNIVERSITY. I also know I never will hear anything like that as long as the same type of people are allowed the honor of being in charge at NC State.

      I honestly believe that those folks in charge in Raleigh, the folks like James Oblinger and Lee Fowler, seriously think that their jobs are more important than what is required of them by NC State University itself. Just take a look at their collective résumés, and all of the committees and etc., that they are involved in. They are so busy with construction plans and trying to join this or that group, and so consumed with their individual/group appearances among their own contemporaries, that they don’t have the time necessary to sit down long enough and contemplate what is really wise and good for NC State University.

      I say that James Oblinger eats that stuff up. He must, or his compliments and rewards surely wouldn’t be going to someone who is just coasting through the ATHLETICS/main part, of his job title.

    13. redfred2 05/22/2008 at 5:24 PM #

      One more thing, some of you folks are concentrating on statistics based a brief period of time, say like, this year versus last year. The problem I have with that is that this is not an entirely new university, and it’s not just starting out on it’s own for the very first time. It has a track record and things for those in charge to draw upon. Problem is, their track record indicates that they can’t draw upon, or learn from anybody or anything. It’s also crystal clear that they lack the imagination required to strike out on their own.

      It’s like the talentless, jobless, twenty eight year old ‘kid’ stuffing his/her face, while sitting way too comfortably on the couch. The one who couldn’t, and wouldn’t even dare, think about leaving a comfy home where no one pushes him to do more.

    14. redfred2 05/22/2008 at 5:35 PM #

      tdawg, Whoa right there young (fan since 2001) man.

      Are you saying that we,… are depressing you? I don’t know what the others around here think, but that defeatist attitude that you just expressed is more depressing than anything that I’ve EVER read on this site, at any time.

    15. Dr. BadgerPack 05/22/2008 at 5:51 PM #

      WV Wolf- I wasn’t trying to bust your chops (hope you didn’t take it that way). Great analysis; thanks for taking the time to pull that together. I fully understand this was a strictly statistical exercise– I merely wanted to point out that declining can be good (well, “OK”) if you are coming from a position of strength. I should also note that softball is a pretty darn good program- 5th place and a championship game appearance in a rebuilding year is pretty solid. I have a feeling Navas will eventually get that team to the point where the don’t “rebuild”… they “reload”…

    16. IMFletcherWolf 05/22/2008 at 6:19 PM #

      I have been frustrated with the basketball program for many years. I grew up during the 80’s and have fond memories of State being considered one of the elite in ACC basketball. We have been anything but elite for too long. In fact, I argue we have not even been average. I compiled the stats I listed in a post earlier today with the hope that these statistics would prove my feelings correct. My feelings/beliefs that: 1) State was an elite team in ACC basketball for many years until 1990; 2) State has been an average team at best since 1990.

      We State fans have been told for too long to “wait until next season.” Patience, the administration says. “How much longer?” I ask. Eighteen years is long enough I say.

      How is it that State basketball can be so good for 36+ years in the ACC and then be virtually irrelevant for the next 18 and this be accepted by the University? It totally boggles my mind …

    17. WV Wolf 05/22/2008 at 7:14 PM #

      Not a problem Dr.BadgerPack. Your point is spot on. Women’s Basketball was a lot like Softball, lost a lot of seniors and went from a veteran team to a young team so a dropoff would be expected.

    18. blpack 05/22/2008 at 9:05 PM #

      The fire burning against Lee is building.

    19. Rick 05/23/2008 at 7:16 AM #

      “I realize that it’s the off season, but getting depressed everyday about how horrible our athletics program is kinda turns me off to Statefans.”

      It is not Statefansnation that is depressing you, it is the piss poor performance of our atheltic department. We are just shining the light on it instead of letting it linger. Put your frustration where it should be.

    20. redfred2 05/23/2008 at 9:46 PM #

      “The fire burning against Lee is building.”

      You could have also said, “The fire IS burning WHILE Lee is building.”

      You know, like the Rome/Nero thing.

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