The State of State Part Three–Meet The Standards

AD & Department Baseball General NC State Administration NCS Basketball NCS Football Non-Revenue Rankings & Lists Stat of the Day58

“My goals have always been to be in the top three in the conference. If you’re in the top three you always have a chance to win the championship. That’s an obvious goal as well. Minimum goals, we don’t want to be in the bottom-half of anything.. the bottom-half in any sport.”
–Lee Fowler, PackPride.com, 5-22-08

“Our minimum should be middle of the conference, not last in the league”
–Lee Fowler, Technician, 8-31-07

These statements lead to three questions.

1. Are NC State’s athletic programs meeting Lee Fowler’s goal of top three in the conference?

The following statistics are for the 21 ACC sports plus Gymnastics, which competes in the East Atlantic Gymnastics League (EAGL). Softball did not begin play until the 2003-04 season. Historical data for Rifle could not be found (see note in Part Two).

top-3-table.jpg

In the 2007-08 season, 81.8% of State’s athletic programs did not meet Fowler’s goal of top three in the conference.

The following programs finished in the top three of the conference in 2007-08:
• M Cross Country
• W Cross Country
• M Outdoor Track
• Gymnastics

For the eight year time span that Lee Fowler has been AD, 27.2% of State’s athletic programs met his goal of top three in the conference.

Two sports have finished in the top three in the conference every year under Fowler:
• M Cross Country
• W Cross Country

One sport has only missed finishing in the top three in the conference once under Fowler:
• Wrestling

Two additional sports have finished in the top three in the conference at least half of the time under Fowler:
• W Basketball
• Gymnastics

Top three finishes for the four major revenue sports:
• W Basketball—4 out of 8 years
• M Basketball—2 out of 8 years
• Baseball—1 out of 8 years
• Football—0 out of 8 years

In five out of eight years at least 30% of State’s athletic programs failed to finish in the top three in the conference.

For the eight year time span that Lee Fowler has been AD, 72.8% of State’s athletic programs did not meet his goal of top three in the conference.

The 2007-08 season is a decline from the 2006-07 season high mark in which 36.4% of State’s programs finished in the top three.

Eight sports have never finished in the top three in the conference under Fowler:
• Football
• W Soccer
• M Swimming
• W Swimming
• M Tennis
• W Tennis
• W Outdoor Track
• Volleyball

Three sports have only finished in the top three in the conference once under Fowler:
• Baseball
• M Soccer
• W Indoor Track

2. Are NC State’s athletic programs meeting Lee Fowler’s minimum standard of middle of the conference?

top-half-table.jpg

In the 2007-08 season, 72.7% of State’s athletic programs did not meet Fowler’s minimum requirement of middle of the conference.

The following programs finished in the top half of the conference in 2007-08:
• Baseball
• M Cross Country
• W Cross Country
• M Outdoor Track
• M Indoor Track
• Gymnastics

For the eight year time span that Lee Fowler has been AD, 41.0% of State’s athletic programs met his minimum requirement of middle of the conference.

Two sports have finished in the top half of the conference every year under Fowler:
• M Cross Country
• W Cross Country

Two sports have only missed finishing in the top half of the conference once under Fowler:
• Wrestling
• Gymnastics

Five additional sports have finished in the top half in the conference at least half of the time under Fowler:
• M Basketball
• Baseball
• M Golf
• M Outdoor Track
• M Indoor Track

Top half finishes for the four major revenue sports:
• W Basketball—5 out of 8 years
• M Basketball—4 out of 8 years
• Baseball—4 out of 8 years
• Football—3 out of 8 years

In five out of eight years at least half of State’s athletic programs failed to finish in the top half of the conference.

For the eight year time span that Lee Fowler has been AD, 59.0% of State’s athletic programs did not meet his minimum standard of middle of the conference.

The 2007-08 season is part of a two year decline from the 2005-06 season high mark in which 59.1% of State’s programs finished in the top half.

Five sports have never finished in the top half of the conference under Fowler:
• W Soccer
• W Swimming
• M Tennis
• W Tennis
• Volleyball

Two sports have only finished in the top half of the conference once under Fowler:
• M Soccer
• M Swimming

3. Are NC State’s athletic programs avoiding finishing last in the conference?

Over the eight year time span, 23 teams (13.3%) in eight different sports have finished dead last in the conference (not counting ties for last).

In 2007-08, three teams (13.6%) finished dead last in the conference:
• M Soccer
• W Soccer
• Volleyball

Volleyball has finished dead last in the ACC in each of the 8 years. Other multiple last place programs are M Soccer (5 times), W Soccer (3 times) and W Tennis (3 times).

About WV Wolf

Graduated from NCSU in 1996 with a degree in statistics. Born and inbred in West "By God" Virginia and now live in Raleigh where I spend my time watching the Wolfpack, the Mountaineers and the Carolina Hurricanes as well as making bar graphs for SFN. I'm @wvncsu on the Twitter machine.

AD & Department Baseball General NC State Administration NCS Basketball NCS Football Non-Revenue Rankings & Lists Stat of the Day

58 Responses to The State of State Part Three–Meet The Standards

  1. choppack1 05/23/2008 at 10:45 AM #

    And you see, if Fowler is saying that facilities were holding us back, he should have said, “The fans are right – we are struggling. But we stink at so many sports because our facilities are bad. I think we have the right coaches out there.”

    He doesn’t say this, he says, “Those fans are the lunatic fringe out there on that crazy internet, we’ve got great coaches.”

  2. StateFans 05/23/2008 at 1:23 PM #

    It’s interesting to me that we rarely hear other Athletics Directors harp about the need for facilities to be in place (especially after EIGHT YEARS of being on the job) as a condition of starting to judge their coaches.

    Sure resources are important…but they seem to be of extra importance at NC State because LF’s odd priorities compared to their role at other Universities.

  3. choppack1 05/23/2008 at 1:32 PM #

    Well – you gotta stick w/ what you’re good at. I mean let’s face it, it’s a lot easier to balance a budget and make sure something gets built than it is to find a special coach. (And given our sad first hand knowledge of how he handles his most critical and independent hire, well…)

  4. howlie 05/23/2008 at 2:28 PM #

    If the university graded on a 100% scale and all the students averaged 27.2% it would be…

    … WORTHY OF AWARDS from reporters and FACULTY SENATES!

  5. b 05/23/2008 at 2:34 PM #

    I love Joe Paterno.

  6. roandaddy 05/23/2008 at 2:50 PM #

    What about the bass fishing NC?!? No credit for Jed on that one.

    Facilities are nice.. but they don’t play the sport, they just help with advertising. The problem for State has been.. once we get the athlete on campus, we don’t have the coaches to make them great. Certain sports we do.. but as the numbers show.. a vast majority are lacking.

    I still think it would be incredibly beneficial to “break the bank” on a big name hire in a big time sport. Look at Bama w/Saban or SC w/Holtz and Spurrier.. sure they are expensive, but the tv time make it worth it.

  7. choppack1 05/23/2008 at 2:56 PM #

    roandaddy – I think we could have done that in b’ball, but the timing wasn’t right when the change was made. Sadly, we’ll probably have the opportunity to do that again in the next year or two in basketball.

    I do believe that if Montgomery was available at the time, he would have been pursued and offered a lot of $$ to come here.

  8. ruffles31 05/23/2008 at 3:34 PM #

    Bass fishing is a club sport, not a varsity sport. Therefore, it is on the same level as NCSU hockey, lacrosse, etc.

  9. WV Wolf 05/23/2008 at 3:37 PM #

    As far as coaching, just look at the addition of Tom Holliday to the baseball coaching staff. In his 2nd year on the job as the pitching coach State has the 4th best ERA in the nation, a top 10 RPI and an improved record. He’s probably not the only reason for that but I would think he’s a big part of it, especially the pitching staff. Anybody who follows the baseball team closer than I do feel free to enlighten me. (Actually it’s probably due to the extra seats and the new bathrooms at the Doak).

    When you see what adding a quality coach just at the assistant level can do for a program (also see Larry Hunter with the basketball program and Norm Chow with football for example), it really makes you wonder what could happen with some of the other programs that could use a kickstart (I’m looking at you, soccer programs). Hasn’t worked for volleyball yet but it was worth a try and Coach Navas has built the softball program from the ground up.

  10. PackerInRussia 05/23/2008 at 3:39 PM #

    “We have competitive facilities. Now I am going to take a different approach with coaches and how long they have given how long they’ve been here.”

    I didn’t know facilities competed. You could add this to the cheering discussion that was held on this site a while back, but we should invent a cheer for the facilities since it seems we’re supposed to be rooting for them first before we actually root for the team. So, should it be Rrrrrrrr Beeeeeeee Cccccccc R-B-C! or just a quick R-B-C, R-B-C!
    BTW, this quote just shows that while the focus remained on facilities, there was no focus on performance.

  11. highstick 05/23/2008 at 3:49 PM #

    Let’s see now. I specifically remember Oblinger replying to me year before last that there were “chemistry” problems and I suggested that he must have had a weak chemistry background. Then this past year when there were obviously “chemistry” issues on the basketball team, things got even worse. Which would lead me to believe that neither Obligner nor Fowler have a clue about chemistry!

    Now you’re telling me that neither understand math nor statistics?

    Gee whiz, guys, should we expect this kind of understanding from the leadership at a engineering university? I’m not sure this is a reasonable expectation! Also, should we expect the Faculty Senate of an engineering school to be able to understand and interpret these type statistics? Certainly not!

    Maybe like “Obama” says, “we need a change”!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Finishing “Dead Ass Last” in ACC Basketball doesn’t even take an understanding of chemistry or statistics! Just the ability to understand that “we stunk it up”!

  12. redfred2 05/23/2008 at 4:17 PM #

    “Bass fishing is a club sport,…”

    Again, like I said at the top of thread, I guess you could use a club, but you don’t really need one for bass fishing. They’re actually pretty harmless creatures.

  13. john of sparta 05/23/2008 at 5:08 PM #

    R Not.
    Bass R addictive.

  14. redfred2 05/23/2008 at 5:51 PM #

    ^ Oh I agree, as matter of fact I’m fishing in tournament on Monday, it’s inshore, and in saltwater though. But even if bass are addictive like you’re saying, I just still don’t see bludgeoning them with a club. There has to be a better way.

  15. Dr. BadgerPack 05/23/2008 at 6:44 PM #

    WV Wolf– State’s strong suit for the last 5 or so years (going back to Sterry and Rogers) has been their pitching. Holliday is good, but Avent does seem to have a knack for bringing good arms in. Bats, unfortunately, are a different story.

  16. highstick 05/23/2008 at 7:17 PM #

    You bludgeon those bluefish….particularly the Carolina bluefish~

  17. roandaddy 05/23/2008 at 7:57 PM #

    I am rolling on the floor w/the bass comments. Sorry, didn’t realize it was a “club” sport.

  18. brown pelican 05/23/2008 at 8:06 PM #

    how do programs win in the two major revenue sports when they find themselves on the outside looking in? see jim grobe at wake forest and tony bennett and washington state as modern day examples of guys who find a way to find high character guys with great upsides who will play together and exceed expectations—damn that sounds like fun!—if we were winning regularly in the two revenue sports—the bass fishing team would definitely be suffering for publicity here—redfred—agree with highstick—spare nothing on the bluefish—go pack

  19. redfred2 05/23/2008 at 9:11 PM #

    highstick, I hope I’m not worried with bluefish this weekend, just speckled trout, puppy drum, and maybe a couple of flat, brown, door mats. But if I do catch any powder blue fish, I’ll be sure and bludgeon the hell out of one, just for you.

  20. redfred2 05/23/2008 at 9:21 PM #

    Sorry to derail the thread, I’m just feeling a little goofy with the holiday weekend coming up.

    Lee does still suck though.

  21. Dr. BadgerPack 05/23/2008 at 9:48 PM #

    red- thanks for the evening entertainment. 🙂

    Good reading…

    And Lee doesn’t suck… he blows…

  22. Ed89 05/23/2008 at 10:31 PM #

    Did anyone go see any of the Tournament of Champions games tonight? If so, how did our State commits and prospects look?

  23. redfred2 05/24/2008 at 12:41 PM #

    Just having a little fun DrB, thanks.

    “Our minimum should be middle of the conference, not last in the league”

    No shit Lee. I’d actually raise that minimum but I’m pretty sure that’s what most of us have been saying around here for years now. After rereading that quote I think I’d add a fourth question to header and ask, Now that you (Lee Fowler) and us powerless fans are all in bascially total agreement, what in the hell are you and your buddy Oblinger going to actually do about it? It’s your baby, if the powerless fan’s attitudes aren’t quite positive enough for you two guy’s tastes, then let’s see the two of YOU figure a way, and do something to change them. It is YOUR job afterall.

    Again, it’s all very reactive, and never, E V E R, pro-active.

  24. PackerInRussia 05/24/2008 at 2:31 PM #

    Our new motto should be: “NC State: Where we strive to be better than last place…and sometimes succeed”

  25. highstick 05/24/2008 at 2:58 PM #

    If you’re a bass fisherman, don’t try to land any of those bluefish by the lip!

    Good luck with the fishing! I’m headed to Morehead in the week of July 4th. Leave a few for me!

1 2 3

Leave a Reply