YOU Write the Story – How did UCLA and UNC-CH do it?

Lavin released

As many of you already experience and recognize, we feel this blog has some of the most insightful readers and commentors of any fan blog on the internet. It is a regular experience to read an entry on our blog and learn a lot more from the resulting conversation in the comments section than you learn from the original author.

With this said, I thought that it would be interesting to introduce a new excercise whereby we engage all of the talent that we have at the blog and ask for you to take a more active role in what ultimately is posted as entries here. (I will be traveling and won’t be around much this week so it is a good time to give this a try).

Here is what we are going to do — I am going to provide a topic and ask our readers to provide comments on this topic. We hope that the comments will be diverse and will include links, statistics, editorial comments and maybe even some personal experiences. Some of you may choose to take a stab at writing an entire article; others may choose just to provide some key statistics and records. We hope to ultimately copy and paste the information and commentary and create an important entry for the blog that we can add to our archives for future use. (Don’t hesitate to run some key word searches on SFN while making use of our archives!)

The topic today is brought to us by two members of this year’s Final Four – UCLA and UNC-CH. Today, the Bruins and the Tarheels are coached by Ben Howland and Roy Williams, respectively. But, just a few years ago both institutions had different faces leading the charge. (In fact, Carolina went through a seven year stretch where they employed four different basketball coaches and ALL FOUR of them reached the Final Four).

Since this is an NC State blog, let’s tie NC State to this by asking the question – over the last 15 years, how has the manner in which NC State’s “leadership” has managed our Basketball program compare to the decisions and moves that UCLA (Steve Lavin) and UNC (Matt Doherty and Bill Guthridge) have chosen. Particularly, how does Lee Fowler’s decisions to retain Herb Sendek from 2000-2006 compare to UCLA and UNC’s decisions?

To get you started, allow us to turn your attention to this old SFN entry that we found with a five second search of our database. In addition to some great editorial comments in the discussion section that would be relevant to this, the following summary for Steve Lavin’s career at UCLA was provided.

Lavin’s quick record: 7 Seasons; 6 NCAA Bids; 5 Sweet 16’s; 1 Elite Eight

Lastly, if you weren’t online much this weekend then we ask that you play around a little and do some reading. For example, we’ve got a couple of “bytes” entries that received a lot of attention on Saturday and on Friday.

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144 Responses to YOU Write the Story – How did UCLA and UNC-CH do it?

  1. kyjelly 03/31/2008 at 9:14 PM #

    amd last years success in the acct was it because of sids coaching skills and leadership or did it coincide with the return of askur who ran the team on the floor and made the other 4 out there better?

  2. turfpack 03/31/2008 at 9:24 PM #

    What should happen at NCSU?? Are we at rock bottom??Can there be a movement for change??Who will lead and change this mess??
    I think there are more questions than answers.There has been some great points made here-hopefully some of them will be put in affect.I truly believe State can make it back to the top,but it’s going to take one hellva job by the right person or group.

  3. choppack1 03/31/2008 at 9:36 PM #

    redfred – regarding WVa – remember w/ Huggins they had some strong ties there. And their AD just lost Rich Rodriguez and IMHO, made a feel good hire which typically results in a road to mediocrity after a few years. They’ll be good in football next year, but I’ll be surprised if you don’t see them fall off after about 3 or 4 years.

  4. Ed89 03/31/2008 at 10:10 PM #

    I will also say this, while Roy’s success hasn’t surprised me, Howland’s has. While he did great things at Pitt, there was nothing in his resume to indicate he’d go to the Final 4 3 straight years.

    Howland has been blessed by being the Head Coach of a program that ESPN wants to give another championship before the “Wizard of Westwood” passes away. I love John Wooden, but his second “5” could have started for any other team in the nation during those years. Walton as the 3rd best player in College Basketball history is laughable. He had an All-American (Willis) with him when he lost to DT, TB, and MT. The amount of improprieties would boggle the mind. He did not win all those championships “ONLY” because of his stellar coaching — yes, he was great, but he consistently got great players.

    UNC and UCLA get cakewalks to the final four because they win during the regular season. They win during the regular season because there is a huge $$$$$$$$$ bias throughout college basketball. UCLA consistently got calls in the PAC-10 tourney and the NCAA tourney – the “hack” on A&M not called. UNC hasn’t needed as much blatant help because quite frankly, they are very talented. UNC, UCLA, and Kansas are at the forefront and guess what, they are 3 of the 4 teams in the final four. Calipari has gotten around it by going to a conference that has lenient academic standards and NO competition. He knows he can’t do that in the Pac-10 or ACC unless he’s at a big name school – and the Kansas, UCLA, and UNC jobs aren’t opening up soon, I don’t think. Sorry, those are the facts………..

  5. SMD 03/31/2008 at 10:45 PM #

    I’d just like to take this opportunity to request that SFN do a column later that fully outlines what they know in regards to Barnes turning us down two years ago.

    You guys teased it in the column up top, this reader would love to know whatever scoop you do. Thanks!

  6. JeremyH 03/31/2008 at 10:53 PM #

    as to the success of WV implementing the coaching of “Huggy Bear”, review the following quote from “Charlie Wilson’s War” :

    “A boy is given a horse on his 14th birthday. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how wonderful.” But a Zen master who lives in the village says, “we shall see.” The boy falls off the horse and breaks his foot. Everyone in the village says, “Oh how awful.” The Zen master says, “We shall see.” The village is thrown into war and all the young men have to go to war. But, because of the broken foot, the boy stays behind. Everyone says, “Oh, how wonderful.” The Zen master says, “We shall see.”

  7. Ed89 03/31/2008 at 11:00 PM #

    You talk about about BOT’s, AD’s, etc., but let’s talk about players and recruits.

    I’ve heard Gavin Grant drives a early 2000’s Nissan — Ty Lawson drives a Dodge 300. Hey, recruits look at that…I guarantee, Calamari’s guys have nice rides….I’m just saying, if you want to get recruits, and they go to your campus, and your senior is driving a POS, and you go to the next school and a sophomore is driving a sweet ride, if you don’t think they see that, and others see that, you’re crazy….maybe our big donors need to get “smarter.”

  8. Ed89 03/31/2008 at 11:05 PM #

    $$$$$$$$ talks, Bull$%^# walks, as they say….

  9. JeremyH 03/31/2008 at 11:09 PM #

    Ed89: maybe you watched “Blue Chips” too many times. unless there is a pleasant loophole that is being exploited, getting an interest-free loan from the Bank of Baby Blue would be illegal.

  10. Ed89 03/31/2008 at 11:12 PM #

    🙂

    I’m just sick of us suckin’!!

  11. Trip 04/01/2008 at 1:24 AM #

    http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10752136

    Looks like K’s got his first defector. Taylor King is a helluva sniper (when he takes smart shots) with some athletic ability, he’ll be a nice pickup for most schools.

  12. packpigskinfan23 04/01/2008 at 1:49 AM #

    ^yeah I saw that on espn earlier… it confuses me. This kid could easily have been a starter next season if he had a good off-season.

  13. Howler 04/01/2008 at 6:22 AM #

    UCLA and UNC are different in that a last place conference finish would lead to extreme action. Meanwhile our preseason #3 team finishes last, and we have yet to hear of any tangible differences for next season. I guess we should all hope that every other team gets worse?

  14. Rick 04/01/2008 at 7:19 AM #

    Someone above asked a very good question.
    What does it take to have a great athletic department. I define good athletic department as success in most if not all sports and at least occasional championships in the major sports.
    Does it take
    1) Facilities? – while they certainly help Wake Forest has proven they are not a requirement
    2) Fan support? – chicken vs egg – a team wins and they will get fans. Look at Davidson
    3) Money? – While you need a certain amount of money to attract coaches this is similar to number 1
    4) Leadership – This appears to be the key. I have seen people wonder how an AD is supposed to affect this outside of hiring and firing coaches.

    I say that athletics is no longer about sport, it is now more about business. And just as a great business man can turn around a company so can a great AD turn around an athletic department. But what does that take?

    1) Vision – Good leaders have a vision but great leaders are able to get others to not only see the vision but to believe in it as well
    2) Goals – great leaders set high goals and let their people figure out how to reach them. They will help if asked or if they see the need but they let their people strive to reach the goals they have been given. Of course part of that is setting goals for youself (publicly stated) and being a role model for your people to follow. Being an example of how they should work.
    3) Managing – The least important IMO. A great leader may not be a great manager, but he sure has a great maanger as his second man.

  15. Rochester 04/01/2008 at 7:36 AM #

    1. It’s Atsur. The kid was the guts of our team for four years. Honor him by spelling his name right. Could even toss in an umlaut if you are so inclined.

    2. My God, do you not know how to write when you arrive at college?

    Sadly, most people do not. Even sadder, a great portion do not when they leave college, even the graduates. Not to be too harsh, but comb through the posts on this board. Some of them are a little hard to get through. And there are plenty of people who work in my office who are spelling/grammar impaired. Some of them are managers.

  16. packbackr04 04/01/2008 at 8:16 AM #

    wow, can we get Taylor King?

    so if duke is having defections, when can we expect to see some players packing it up?

  17. Mike 04/01/2008 at 8:27 AM #

    Ed89, I dont want to even joke about rides the players are driving or any illegal activity. I would rather LOSE EVERY GAME with a clean program than win NCAA championship with illegal activity.

    You make a point about Lawson – it is possible some idiot bank gave him a loan based on future earnings. Is it illegal? Yes, but certainly not a guarantee it is UNX doing. LeBron had a Hummer in high school, loan based on potential.

    When I was in school, during the V years, there was a lot of crap about Avie Lester driving a Camaro, and must have been something illegal. Many of you are saying who? Exactly. Avie Lester was not worth us getting busted. As it turns out, Lester’s parents saved for college, and when he got a scholly, guess what – they had some $$$ to buy him a car. Now, Shack’s Trans Am or Clyde Austin’s Caddy might be a different story………….

  18. Stoner 04/01/2008 at 8:28 AM #

    that is saying something with coaches like Kerrigan and Tarrantini still around.

    As much as people focus on basketball, the bigger problem with our athletics department is the awful state of our non-revenue sports. Tarrantini has been here 20 years and hasn’t done much in the last 12 years. Kerrigan has been awful, but I guess the fact she played here gives her some sort of immunity (can’t think of another reason to keep her). We had a women’s volleyball coach, who lost 71 straight conference games before being let go. The players hated her and complained to Lee, but he did nothing.

    I look at Maryland’s women’s basketball program, which won a national title recently and is now a perennial top 10 program, and realize you can turn around non-revenue sports with right coaching hire. In order to hire the right coach though, you have to be willing to let the old, unproductive, coaches go.

    Sticking to guys, who have not produced in ages just seems indicative of the malaise that has infected NCSU athletics. I honestly think we’re more worried about not having to deal with contract buy outs, if we fire someone, than we are with winning.

  19. Mike 04/01/2008 at 8:32 AM #

    Taylor King is not a surprise. Dook loses players every year. I dont have time to do the research but I suspect K has more defections than any other coach in college basketball. K loses more than Herbie ever did.

    Burger AA comes to Dook and realizes he is either 1)not as good as advertised, or 2) does not play K d, or 3)realizes playing behind 3 other burger AA’s does not bode well for playing time, and they end up looking for greener pastures. Name one player that has transferred out of Duke and been a stud somewhere else. Not sure if these players are “encouraged” to transfer out or get Buntinged out, but it’s ironic how no one questions K about the rate of defection.

  20. ktoh 04/01/2008 at 8:36 AM #

    Accountability for the AD and each individual coach,we are all accountable in our company’s ,positions etc.
    If I blew 9 accounts in a row I sure as heck would be held accountable.
    Lee sure has no worries here with the job he has done as well as Sid and thats the big problem,hell a few weeks back Sids in the paper saying he is not going to quit? This is a joke and it will get a hell of a lot worse unless someone takes charge and holds these incompentent people responsible.

  21. Stoner 04/01/2008 at 8:51 AM #

    I don’t think Sid should be in a position, where he feels he’ll get fired tomorrow. Herb’s worst rercuiting years were when his job security was in doubt. If Sid had to go through that turbulence right now, it’d set our basketball program even further back.

    Right now, Sid and O’Brien are the least of our problems. I think O’Brien will turn things around, since he has proven himself at BC. Giving Sid a couple of more years isn’t going to destroy the program anymore than what’s already been done.

    The issue Lee needs to be held accountable for is the underperformance of some of our non-revenue sports and the long tenured coaches, who are in charge of those programs.

    UNC is good in both men’s basketball and non-revenue sports and more than likely will have a resurgence in their football program, under Butch Davis. UNC just isn’t satisfied with having one of the top men’s basketball programs in the nation. They have the best women’s soccer program in the NCAA’s, one of the top women’s basketball program in the ACC (I’d have put Duke’s up there, but with Gostenker’s [sp?] gone, I think they may drop down), a very good baseball team, which was runner up in the CWS not too long ago.

    If anybody has time, I’d really like to know the turnover UNC has in their non-revenue sports, with regards to coaches, who don’t deliver ACC titles or national titles. I doubt they’d retain a men’s soccer coach for 20 years, who hasn’t produced much for most of his tenure.

  22. Texpack 04/01/2008 at 9:07 AM #

    Hopefully the table below won’t be too screwed up once it’s posted. I did a side by side of State and UNCCH between 1970 and 1989. I would contend that this was the best 20 year period of NC State Basketball since the formation of the ACC. It also starts when I was 9 years old, and other than the 13-10 win over Duke in the ACC semis and the trip to Charlotte to see the ACCT Finals the next night, that ACC Tournament is my earliest distinct memory of State basketball. This stretch included 5 ACC Championships, 2 National Titles and only one season with no post season play over the final 10 years. This 20 year period serves as my frame of reference for expectations regarding our basketball program. There was only one losing season during this stretch and six finishes in the bottom half on the conference. Never were there two second division finishes back-to-back.

    I would second the comment from above regarding Willis Casey and his management of NC State Athletics. He ran the kind of athletic department, from a performance standpoint, that most of us middle age types believe we should have today. Willis was so tight with a dollar that the need for fund raising and facilities improvement got put on the back burner. Coach V really started those wheels turning when he became AD.

    As for the Holes, Bruins and their decisions regarding their basketball coaches, it should be pretty obvious from the table below that the standard at UNCCH was to more often than not make the Elite 8, with a floor expectation of the Sweet 16 once the tournament had expanded. UCLA was farther removed from their Golden Era than we are now when they pulled the trigger on Lavin, they just hadn’t lost track of their measuring stick like we did after the crucifixion of Jim Valvano.

    There are two words that sum up what separates us from the haves in college athletics; high standards and accountability. One of the things that Sidney Lowe has that we have not had in our basketball program since V was run off, is the appropriate personal reference point for what the results should be from NC State basketball. One can still be legitimately skeptical about whether he has the requisite skills and qualities to produce those results, but what I believe to be the appropriate targets for our basketball program certainly won’t be set by our current administration. That is why I was excited by the hiring of Sidney Lowe.

    NCSU NCSU NCSU NCSU UNCCH UNCCH UNCCH UNCCH
    Year REC ACC/T AP/UPI NCAA REC ACC/T AP/UPI NCAA
    1970 23-7 T2/1 10/12 F16 18-9 T2/R1 NIT
    1971 13-14 T6/R2 26-6 1/R3 13/13 WONNIT
    1972 16-10 T4/R1 26-5 1/1 2/2 3rd
    1973 27-0 1/1 2/2 25-8 2/R1 11/12 NIT
    1974 30-1 1/1 1/1 WON 22-6 T2/R2 12/8 NIT
    1975 22-6 T2/R3 7/9 23-8 T2/1 9/10 F16
    1976 21-9 T2/R1 NIT 25-4 1/R3 8/6 F32
    1977 17-11 5/R2 28-5 1/1 5/3 2nd
    1978 21-10 3/R1 NIT 23-8 1/R2 16/10 F/32
    1979 18-12 T6/R2 23-6 T1/1 9/3 F32
    1980 20-8 T2/R1 F48 21-8 T2/R2 15/15 F32
    1981 14-13 7/R1 29-8 2/1 6/6 2nd
    1982 22-10 4/R2 F48 32-2 T1/1 1/1 WON
    1983 26-10 T3/1 16/14 WON 28-8 T1/R2 8/8 F8
    1984 19-14 7/R1 NIT 28-3 1/R2 1/1 F16
    1985 23-10 T1/R2 16/18 F8 27-9 T1/R2 7/7 F8
    1986 21-13 T4/R1 F8 28-6 3/R1 8/8 F16
    1987 20-15 6/1 F64 32-4 1/R3 2/3 F8
    1988 24-8 2/R2 14/13 F64 27-7 1/R3 7/8 F8
    1989 22-9 1/R1 19/18 F16 29-8 T2/1 5/4 F16
    1990 18-12 T5/R1 21-13 T3/R1 F16

  23. kyjelly 04/01/2008 at 9:15 AM #

    ^ all great but where in this boggle does it say the man can coach?

  24. blackdom 04/01/2008 at 9:38 AM #

    Texpack,Stoner: One example please why Sid is the man for the job? Based on what? Seriously I wished he succeded but the proof is out on the floor?

  25. kyjelly 04/01/2008 at 9:41 AM #

    Texpack: Where is kevin bacon in your chart? Is it some kind of 6 degrees od seperation deal?

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