Moving Forward in 2008 Hoops

07-08 Basketball General NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe89

Ever since I decided to write off the 2007-08 season as a learning experience for Sid and staff, things have continued in their perilous course. Clemson and UNC each went on huge scoring runs to finish off the Pack at home, leaving us at 4-8 and on the outside of the NIT bubble. I don’t feel any worse about the status of the program because it’s exactly what I expected – otherwise, I never would have published the “writing off” post.

So, where do we go from here? It’s certainly possible that NC State loses out and ends its season on ACCT Thursday (with a losing record overall). It’s probably equally likely that the Pack ekes out 2 more wins, and maybe gets to ACCT Friday, setting up a certain NIT invite. Although the former sounds awful (and the thought of enduring such a stretch makes me cringe), there could be a silver lining.

A “disaster season” would make certain that no staff member or player takes any shred of validation or ego into the offseason. It will be absolutely clear that their attitude, offseason conditioning, and overall approach need a serious overhaul. No consecutive post-season bids to hang one’s hat on. No sliver of respectability. No hiding from the cold, hard truth. No delusions about being “that close” or “we were just unlucky.”

One needs only to look back to the disaster that was his 5th season. Although most of us hated the Princeton system, at least it was unavoidable that something major had to change – and it did. NOTE: This is not free license to turn this into a Sendek thread – just illustrating how disaster can be the impetus for change.

We have to accept that this team is not going to come together. 2 more weeks of practice won’t help much. The awful chemistry apparent through the entire season won’t be fixed at this late date. Players won’t magically get into shape, either physically or mentally. Yes, I’d like to watch another NIT run – I’m a junkie, and I want to see more (and better) Pack hoops. But I don’t think it would do anything positive for the program.

Please don’t create strawman arguments – this is a way to find a silver lining only. I don’t want NC State to lose out. I certainly hate the thought of Gavin Grant’s season ending like that. I will watch every game, and I will cheer for unexpected victories. if we get an NIT bid, we certainly should accept it.

Just some food for thought as the week comes to a close.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

07-08 Basketball General NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe

89 Responses to Moving Forward in 2008 Hoops

  1. RAWFS 02/22/2008 at 10:35 PM #

    I don’t look at McCauley as a big disappointment this year, but that’s just me.

  2. redfred2 02/22/2008 at 10:51 PM #

    ^RegularExpression,

    It’s like I said earlier, if you’re going to demote workers who did well in the past, all in favor of a new guy, then that new guy had better be super human enough to compensate for a general lack of interest shown by a good number of his new co-workers.

  3. Rochester 02/22/2008 at 11:01 PM #

    McCauley was totally jerked around for the first half of the season, so I’m willing to cut him some slack. And while it’s time to give up on this season, I think it’s a mistake to give up on Costner.

    I like Sid. I really do. But he needs to be taking notes this year, because there have been a lot of things that didn’t work. Hell, most things haven’t worked. I think team personnel and chemistry issues were not handled well. The offense has been ugly at times. The defense has been non-existent 95 percent of the time. Rebounding has been poor. All of these things fall on the shoulders of the coaching staff.

    I don’t buy the Sid’s players/Herb’s players crap. They’re basketball players. Teach them what to do and they’ll do it. Or find someone else to play who can. But these guys collectively don’t defend as a team, don’t rebound, don’t pass with much effectiveness, etc. It’s really not just one guy. This is not a well-coached team. Period.

    If we had Carolina’s talent, maybe we could mask that. We don’t. And while I am optimistic that Mays and Williams (and Johnny Thomas) will help next year, that’s not a drastic enough talent addition to make up for this. These kids need to be drilled and conditioned to make plays so we don’t have to bite our nails next November when the Big South and MEAC teams roll into the RBC.

  4. RBCRowdy 02/22/2008 at 11:25 PM #

    I think part of the problem was Coach Lowe destroying the team dynamic by allowing Ben to become the odd man out through the non-conference season in favor of a freshman. Yea JJ had some big non-conference games against inferior competition, but he has not been half the beast in the ACC that he was in December.

    I just think Lowe lost some players by giving playing time based on how many stars Rivals.com gave a player.

  5. redfred2 02/22/2008 at 11:41 PM #

    I say we are playing at a deficit at the PG and SG spots on most nights.

    The PG spot is young and has/had competition all year, but one player has somewhat risen above and shown improvement since the first of the season. The SG spot has had no competition with almost unlimited PT, yet still no consistency and no noticable improvement.

    To be honest and fair about it, Lowe is playing at about 60% manpower and only one out of two guards who can even handle the bball or pass to it to his teammates.

    I’m very upset but I have to realize Lowe has only two of his own players playing right now. One is the most IMPROVED and possibly the biggest hustler, and the other is the simply the best player on the team.

    I have very much lost sight recently, but I need to just back off and let this run it’s course. I still believe Sidney Lowe has what it takes if he can just reach back and recapture it, while at the same time restocking the pantry with his own selections.

    I will watch and try not to comment on anything that is not positive anymore. That is of course, unless I keep hearing about the guy out in the desert. I csn’t hold those comments in, wouldn’t be prudent or good for my health anyway.

  6. Trip 02/23/2008 at 12:49 AM #

    “I think most successful teams have that one certain guy who is a sparkplug and can light a fire under his teammates. The Pack obviously doesn’t have that guy on this team. “This guy” is the main addition that we need for next season, but who will fill that role?”

    Once again, from citations on the internets from people who have watched Johnny Thomas play as well as hearing from a guy that went to high school with him, The 3 things that I have heard consistently about him are this:

    Athletic freak.
    Leader on the court.
    High-grade student.

    If he can shoot some, I’d say this could be our guy next year. He’s spent a year hanging out with the whole team, and he’s learning basketball from watching on the sideline, let’s just hope his ability hasn’t been taken away by a cartilage injury. I hate to get excited about a guy before I see him play in a North Carolina State University jersey, but it’s hard not too about this guy.

    Anyway, everyone needs to chalk this year up to a learning experience for EVERYONE. You can’t tell me that these guys didn’t know that they had to stay in shape for basketball, they’ve been doing it for the last 10 years of their life. What happened was one word. Injury. Who on the team isn’t in shape currently? Costner. Who was the biggest part of people assuming we would kickass and take names this year? Costner. What was the biggest question mark? Point guard. What happened? Degand blew his ACL. Degand had a FULL year of practice under his belt, Javi had none when the year started. Javi has made INCREDIBLE progress over the last 2 months.

    Who needs to take the most blame for this season? The fans. We drunk too much damn kool aid, and it must have been spiked. Lets throw Sidney and Co under the bus because their best player from last year has been struggling with injurys, their best point guard blew an ACL, and possibly their most athletic player (Thomas) also hurt his knee and is out for the year.

    The only thing that I put on the team is their lack of effort at times. The good news with that is that Sidney’s recruits have pretty much given it 110% every time they’re on the court. Even Johnson. Johnson seems like a big time competitor, but is hitting a wall because of his ability or lack of at his current position. I still say that he’d make a fine small forward.

    Is Sidney blameless? Nah. But thats why it’s best to chalk this up as a learning experience for all.

  7. RBCRowdy 02/23/2008 at 12:59 AM #

    Great insight on the Kool-Aid.

    Without last seasons ACC run and a pre-season ranking, are we even having this discussion? I do not believe we are.

  8. wufpup76 02/23/2008 at 1:02 AM #

    well said and worth re-stating:

    “Around the internets, many are confused about what constitutes a “real fan”. They mistakenly think that objective criticism shows that you are not a real fan. If you predict a loss (based on poor performance), you are not a real fan.

    They are horribly wrong. Their definition of being a real fan requires one to disconnect themselves from reality. A real fan makes objective judgements….and still pulls for a win even though it is not expected.”

  9. Greywolf 02/23/2008 at 1:11 AM #

    westwolf
    Feb 22nd, 2008 at 6:35 pm
    ^Speculation or based on a source?

    Refers to my inappropriately worded post about the possibility that Costner has something going on we are privvy to. I have no inside poop. I apologize for the lapse.
    Grey

  10. Greywolf 02/23/2008 at 1:19 AM #

    You guys are going to laugh at me for what I am about to say. This team will be more than alright next year.

    The adversity that doesn’t kill you in life, makes you strong. Not only will the team be stronger, SFN will reach new heights as well. I just read through the comments and actually got moved by the REAL State fan in you all coming out. The derisiveness is abating. I am proud to be a Wolfpacker this very minute — something I got from you all, Redfred, RAWFS, etc. Go PACK!!

  11. RAWFS 02/23/2008 at 7:34 AM #

    I don’t buy the Sid’s players/Herb’s players crap. They’re basketball players. Teach them what to do and they’ll do it. Or find someone else to play who can.

    First of all, you are contradicting yourself inside a single paragraph.

    Secondly, many of Herb’s players were system players designed to play within the framework of his offense. Lowe’s is different. But they’re basketball players, wind ’em up and turn them loose on the court and expect success. Good luck with that.

    Then you say, ‘find players who can.’ In other words, ‘Coach Lowe, go and get players that fit can your scheme.’

    That’s *exactly* what many of us are thinking.

    Finally, Coach O’Brien had a number of problems with his players this year because they were holdovers from the previous coaching staff, which had a different mindset and strategic philosophy. Those players struggled too under TOB and his assistants. Do you want to posit that TOB is not a good coach because he had issues getting maximum effort out of the Amato upperclassmen? Effort comes from within. It cannot be forced out. Wait and see the difference when TOB’s own players come through his system.

  12. Rochester 02/23/2008 at 8:06 AM #

    ^The football situation isn’t a great comparison, because the main problem with Amato’s guys was a lack of discipline. Sure TOB runs a different system, but he found a way to make the team better as the year progressed and the players got used to what he was doing. Or sat. Herb’s guys weren’t undisciplined punks.

    Grant and Fells may have been Herb’s players, but they didn’t really fit his system and were in fact often in the doghouse. We were all excited about their chance to start fresh last year with a coach who would let them play the way they were capable of playing. McCauley developed into a monster last year, under Sid. Maybe it was just getting the court time. Costner was awesome last year, under Sid. They may be “system” players, but I don’t think it makes any sense to write them off as incapable because the system changed. The only Herb players I might put in that category are Horner and Ferguson.

    When I said “find someone else to play,” I was referring more to the short term, where there is a capable guy like Tracy Smith sitting on the bench. Or if someone’s not going to play the defense you demand, put Ferguson in there, who will at least leave everything he’s got on the court.

  13. PackerInRussia 02/23/2008 at 8:54 AM #

    What bends me out of shape (lately at least) is the contrast between half one and half two. The injuries, different types of players in a different system, etc. can account for stuff, but they’ve proved in several games that when they put forth the effort, they can hang with and even get a lead against teams (very good teams). Yet when they come out in the second half, it’s as if they’ve all spent halftime taking a 15 minute cigarette break or ran down to Krispy Kreme. There’s no energy and little effort. They come out and play as if they’re in the shoot around. The defense goes to sleep and it’s as if they’re already down by 30 rather than winning or being close in the game. They’ve lost several games in the first 5 minutes of the second half. I don’t know who’s to “blame” for that. I know that good teams play the full game, but when you show how good you can be in the first half and then just quit in the second, that is frustrating as heck.

  14. Dr. BadgerPack 02/23/2008 at 8:54 AM #

    A silver lining, as has been alluded to many times above, is next year, we will have over 2 courts seasons amongst 3 players at the PG position. We’ll find out really fast whether or not Lowe/staff can identify each PGs deficiencies, PROPERLY CONVEY this information, and the players respond to the constructive criticism. Javi should be interesting– his make up and drive seem to indicate he’ll bust his hump to improve in lacking areas. He should also benefit from off-season conditioning with collegiate facilities, I’m hoping he can come in significantly stronger next year, which is one of his knocks this season. Of course if he isn’t told how to PROPERLY put weight on…

    On a second note, every now and then– even in this thread– comments are made about players who should go, can’t play, etc. I’m not going into each and every one of them, but want to mention Horner explicitly. In my eyes, Horner is a success at NC State if he doesn’t do another darn thing on the court until graduation (I think it is unlikely, I think he’ll turn into a poor-man’s Mike Wilkinson– not a bad guy to have around. Regardless, whether a “zero or a hero” I stand by Horner because he stood by NC State. He made a commitment to us and, at a time when others did not, stood by it. I don’t purport to tell others how to think (some my value winning more than others), but in my optinion to criticize his current level of play and identify shortcomings is one thing (a good thing)– to basically say “get out, we’re taking you’re scholly, in ESSENCE, you shouldn’t have COME HERE” would be a pretty crappy way to treat a player whose integrity seems beyond reproach. [Hopping off soapbox] 🙂

  15. Rochester 02/23/2008 at 9:20 AM #

    Doc, I agree with you on Horner’s scholarship. For us to be upset at Fowler for letting Davis and Werner out of their scholarships so easily may be fair. It follows, then, that it would be hypocritical to want to run Horner off for honoring his.

    If someone wants to leave because they see the writing of splinter-butt bench time on the wall, that’s one thing. If the coach goes even so far as saying “you know, I hope you like practice, because other than garbage time it’s the only time you’ll see the floor, hint, hint,” that’s fair, too. But personally I’d rather not see us literally yank a scholarship. If a player is so bad that he shouldn’t be there, it’s not really his fault for accepting the invitation.

  16. Ed89 02/23/2008 at 9:44 AM #

    I dont have a problem letting Davis and Werner out of their LOI’s after the coaching change. First of all, it would reflect very badly on the university IMO to make a student-athlete go to your school after a coaching change. Secondly, I don’t think Davis or Werner would be helping us very much at all. Now, it was a 5 star PG (let’s say a Ty Lawson as he’s a Soph now), I may rethink it, but a neither Werner or Davis is lighting it up, and those aren’t positions we NEED. Again, I think NC State did the right thing, and I don’t think our currents issues have anything to do with letting those two out of their LOI’s.

  17. Fenrir 02/23/2008 at 9:45 AM #

    there are things wrong with this team we are not being told, coaches and players. when you get to college you should have the basics of basketball imbedded already. college basketball is to sharpen and hone skills for possibly the next level. with that said when i see a player stand on the base line and watch hanbro spin to the basket and that player does not move it tells me something.your basketball instincs tell you to move cover and help. when you stand and watch you are fighting natual instincs you are purposfully telling yourself not to move. anyone that has played the game will agree with me. it’s natual or should be at this level to move to the ball and help the other side (watching) is forced behavior. that is one instance amomge many i have witnessed and not just brandon. i use this as an example to my opening statement. there is alot more wrong with this team than meets the eye.

  18. vtpackfan 02/23/2008 at 9:45 AM #

    Two quick points

    -The 70 pts. we put up against Carolina was the first game in four tries to break the “Wall” (our pts per game) of 68. That sucks, no matter the opponent, point guard situation, or hybrid team you are currently performing with. There ARE HS teams that could put up more then 68 points on an ACC foe with more regularity (they would also get scorched for more then 100 defensively on more then one occasion mind you). Gotta do better againt Charlottesville.

    -The abstract comments by David Glenn regarding the aims of our current mens BB team are obviously a subconcious response to my naming of him in “Simple Men Looking for Candidate of Change” thread.

  19. doug74 02/23/2008 at 11:05 AM #

    I like JJ’s response about it being our turn to get hot. I’ve not given up on this season yet. If we don’t win another game though, I still think this year is an aberration. If Coach made a tactical mistake it may have been starting JJ immediately. Next year we will have the athletes to run some, right now we absolutely do not and it’s at least partly due to bad luck.

  20. Greywolf 02/23/2008 at 11:10 AM #

    Ed89
    Feb 23rd, 2008 at 9:44 am
    I dont have a problem letting Davis and Werner out of their LOI’s after the coaching change. First of all, it would reflect very badly on the university IMO to make a student-athlete go to your school after a coaching change.

    Come on, Ed89, you don’t think I’m going to miss an opportunity to rag on Fowlup do you? Of course it would reflect badly on NCSU. What’s that got to do with the price of eggs in China?

  21. redfred2 02/23/2008 at 11:14 AM #

    Thanks Greywolf, and I don’t think I’d be too concerned about anyone who would would laugh at any of us for showing some emotion right now.

    This is all about the effect of hype, and a total loss of perspective. Granted, there are some really strange things going with this particular group of kids, and this is not at all what I had anticipated, but these are issues that I can’t grasp and I have no answers for at all. Like many people have reminded me many times in the past, I’m not the coach, I don’t know what’s happening beneath the surface, and on top of all of that, I really don’t know my arse from a hole in the ground anyway.

    Admittedly, it’s confusing not fun at all right now, but I think we’re all very capable of waiting this thing out and eventually we’ll all survive to see a better day.

    ^Ed89, you can’t have it both ways with the recruits who were allowed to just walk away. They either signed a document that signals intent and holds them to certain set of guidelines, or they didn’t. Either way, they should have expected to at least STOP BY after the coaching change. But who they were, the number of stars beside their names, or what positions they were good at and how they might be helping us right now, has not one thing to do with it.

    An LOI is worth something, or it’s not, and our buddies at NC State/Lee Fowler went a long way in devaluing it’s INTENT.

  22. Fenrir 02/23/2008 at 11:28 AM #

    i have read this site for a long time and have enjoyed all the different veiws, thoughts and insights to nc state et all. while not a graduate, i have one son that is and a daughter who is a junior this year. they never had a chance i indocterined them at early ages that there was only one school to attend. i grew up in raleigh as a young boy i watched thompson and towe, fire and ice all the great basketball games that were played.i watched a game that some say is the best ever played in college basketball, maryland an nc state 1974. with that said for me to say i’m a fan is not even close. i love nc state!! some here have called it a sickness or disease. i agree while other fans cannot tell you “their teams” starting line up a state fan will give you stats on every player out on the floor. we refer to our players as javi, grant, dt, monty, chris, rodney, on and on. we do this because they are family. i got on this sight to tell everyone that in the middle of our current situation i believe that we will get better. i believe that with our history and heart we will get back into the prominence we deserve. this season and current basketball team have me perplexed and totally confused (coaches and players). but we as state fans want more than anything to be able to throw our heads back and roar we want to beat our chest. we have been waiting a long time to be able to do that agian. last year at the unc state game when the buzzer sounded and we had won. i saw an arena full of people roar in unison. everyone there let out a collective cry of hope for the future and a letting go of our mediocre past. yes a swipe at herb. we will see change we demand it!! it’s going to start with tob and football. i have decided not to say wait until next year ever again. but change is coming!!

  23. For85 02/23/2008 at 11:32 AM #

    I think a display of 40 minutes of real effort and no 2 minute lapses at the end or 5 minute break at the start of the second half would satisfy most of us. A loss by 5 when you gave it your all is a lot different than a loss by 20 when the players quit with 8 minutes to go.

    All the rest of the stuff about players and systems is extra at this point. We mostly agree that these players have skills adequate to compete in the ACC, we’d just like to see them exercise the skills for a FULL 40 minutes.

    I spent 20 years reading about NC State in the backs of the sports section if I was lucky, and usually just trying to “catch up” when I came home on leave. The internet helped some but the results of the last 15 years left a guy living in the backyards of those other conferences with a poor taste for our program.

    Now that I’m back in NC where I can actually see most of the games and I’m reduced to yelling and screaming at the TV like the players can hear me. At least now my blood pressure can get elevated during the game.

  24. westwolf 02/23/2008 at 11:48 AM #

    How would you finish these sentences?

    Next year, this team will reboud better because…

    Next year, this team will play with more energy and passion because

    Next year, this team will play better defense because…

    Next year, this team will have better chemistry because…

    Next year, this team will be in better condition because…

    I know for a fact that CTC told his players not to get so many penalties, but he didn’t know how to coach them not to get them.

    I’m sure that Lowe and told his players to play better defense, to rebound better, to protect the ball better, but he has yet to demonstrate that he can coach them not to do these things.

    We have been at the bottom of several important statistical categories in bothe years that Lowe has been here. Is this purely a result of the talent level?

  25. RAWFS 02/23/2008 at 11:49 AM #

    First of all, I am enjoying this discussion, even if I respectfully disagree with some of the viewpoints. It’s great to see the passion and the thought going in to the situation from our vantage points as fans. It shows the level of investment that we fans have, and it also shows that we as fans have not given up. That’s the blessing and the curse of being a Wolfpacker, you never give up hope even when you it seems like Sisyphus had it easier. That’s Wolfpack pride.

    If Coach made a tactical mistake it may have been starting JJ immediately. Next year we will have the athletes to run some, right now we absolutely do not and it’s at least partly due to bad luck.

    I think that JJ was pretty much promised a year to showcase his talents in the ACC. Quite honestly, from a play standpoint, he probably deserved the starting nod. From the perspective of the other guys, it probably didn’t sit well. Still, Hickson has been one of our best players all season and even though he has had some freshman lapses, we’re better with him on the court than with him on the bench.

    The football situation isn’t a great comparison, because the main problem with Amato’s guys was a lack of discipline.

    On the surface, I can see your point. On the other hand, perhaps the basketball and the football team have some things in common you’re not picking up on.

    Defense *is* discipline when you think about it. Not playing all out defense against your arch-rival is a lack of focus and commitment and that’s the word discipline defined.

    Any given player might be in a shooting slump so deep it feels like being at the bottom of a coal mine. But they can make up for it on the other end of the court by stopping the other guy . That’s mental toughness, and mental toughness comes from discipline.

    That said, I see that issue in common between the two programs.

    And I still say that one of the big reasons that the loss of focus on the court that leads to opponents’ big runs is due to our team being in a lesser physical condition. That’s discipline too — gutting out the gasser, doing the last set of reps, eating right, sleeping right, all of it — the difference there is made by purpose, commitment and focus — ie, discipline. The payback is fresher legs and a clearer head when things get tough.

    Don’t think I am completely absolving the coaching staff either. They are the captains of the ship, and they’ve got to run it tighter in some respects in order to get the results that they want. One way to do it is a complete commitment this offseason to being the most physically fit team in the ACC next year…the ones who WILL outlast everyone. With Lowe’s NBA connections, where this is not a desire but rather a given, he can surely find help designing the program to make exactly that happen.

1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply