Making Sense of the ACC

ESPN.com’s expanded ACC standings.

I probably should have added a question mark to the title, because it’s a difficult task. One thing is abundantly clear – Duke and UNC are significantly better than everyone else. I expect them both to be no worse than #2 seeds in the NCAAT. Damn it.

After that, it’s less clear. My gut has always said that Clemson is the third “good” team, but we have a statistically significant sample to analyze now. The Tigers are 0-2 in conference on the road, and only 3-3 overall (despite having played 4 home games). Perhaps more alarming is that Clemson needed overtime to hold off Wake and Florida State at home. Boston College is 3-2, but it’s hard to take them seriously after a home loss to Virginia Tech. The Eagles have also yet to face UNC, Duke, or Clemson.

Several teams were projected as possible/likely doormats this season, most notably Miami, Wake, and Virginia Tech. All 3 have exceeded expectations so far, especially the Hokies – who already have two road wins in the conference. Thus, I think one can make a fair argument that very little separates teams 3-12 in the ACC.

How does this affect the post-season chase? Well, it depends on how everything shakes out. Even assuming UNC and Duke max out at 15-1 and 14-2, respectively (which is unlikely, but possible), that leaves a total of 67 wins for the other 10 teams to divvy up, for a median figure of 6.7. Certainly, there will eventually be some separation, with at least a few teams reaching 8 or 9 ACC wins.

But what if those few happen to be teams like Virginia Tech, Maryland, and Georgia Tech – all of whom had very poor OOC results? Those teams might need at least 9 conference wins to be comfortable on Selection Sunday. In a parity-filled ACCT, you could also have 5-11 or 6-10 teams in the semifinals, rather than legitimate bubble teams. In such a jumbled scenario, the most balanced (and I would say best) conference in the nation could end up with only 3 or 4 NCAAT bids, and a whole slew of high NIT seeds.

How does this affect the Pack? In my view, it still looks like 5-11 or 6-10. State’s remaining schedule includes 3 games that we would lose 99 times out of 100 – vs. UNC, vs. Duke, at Duke. The matchups are just awful for the Pack. That leaves 8 other “toss up” games, of which we would likely win no more than half. If you believe (as I do) that luck tends to even out over time, we are likely due for some bad bounces of the ball after fortunate endings against Miami and FSU. That makes 6-10 look more like a ceiling than a projection. Of course, I am also a raging pessimist, so take what I say at face value.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

07-08 Basketball

67 Responses to Making Sense of the ACC

  1. choppack1 01/29/2008 at 1:48 PM #

    “All these tough teams will always help our RPI though. Are they not trying to put more emphasis on RPI these days?”

    Actually, who knows what they’ll do. The RPI, IMHO, has one huge flaw – it doesn’t look at margin of victory/margin of defeat. Our Sagarin and Pomeroy rankings are much less appealing – the accuracy of either 3 can be argued.

    I do know this much. We’ve played Nova, Seton Hall, Cincy, Miami, GaTech, Clemson and FSU…These 3 teams are classic Top 100 – 26-100 teams. We are 5-2 versus these teams. If we can keep this up (and that’s a HUGE if) – we’ll finish somewhere between 6-10 (going 6-4 against the middlings) and 8-8 (going 8-2 against the middlings.) I think our likely record is 7-9 or 6-10. If we’re 6-10, we don’t get an NCAA bid unless we advanc to the conference championship – which IMHO, would make our RPI very interesting. At 8-8 – unless we continue to get aniliated, we should have a pretty damn good RPI – but we still may have to win a tournament game (and we’ll need the Nova and Seton Hall or Cincy wins to mean something.)

  2. triadwolf 01/29/2008 at 1:50 PM #

    Do we get charged extra for nausea at NC State or are they kind enough to include it in our tuition as a courtesy?

  3. LRM 01/29/2008 at 2:02 PM #

    Zero chance a 6-10 teams goes to the tourney without the automatic bid. Zero.

    (The only one I can recall was Florida State in 1998, and as I recall, they had quite the impressive out of conference record).

  4. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 2:07 PM #

    I agree, we have to go 8-8 IMO.

  5. choppack1 01/29/2008 at 2:16 PM #

    Several years ago FSU got a bid at 6-10 – even w/ a 1st round loss in the tourney. They are the only one that I know of. Notice that my caveat was that we’d need to go the championship game…We’d have an overall ACC record of 9-11 – and probably an RPI in the lower 40s or high 30s (maybe even higher). Our record would be 20-14. I could especially see this happening if we went 2-6, then went 4-4 before our big our ACC tourney run.

  6. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 2:32 PM #

    Maybe that’s why they’ve been snubbed the last two years…didn’t they go 9-7 one year, and get snubbed.

  7. wufpup76 01/29/2008 at 2:38 PM #

    well, here we go again … i like pat forde and his work … BUT he spends half of his “Forde Minutes” article this week pumping up the Big East and then an entire section dedicated to how disappointing the Wolfpack has been … the same Wolfpack that is 3-0 against the Big East …

    it’s fine to pan us for being disappointing, but there is no reasons given as to why and also no credit for any wins … i love the media

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3219660&sportCat=ncb

  8. Texpack 01/29/2008 at 2:43 PM #

    http://www.unf.edu/~jcoleman/dance.htm#SAS

    The Dance Card link above actually had us in the field before the FSU win. Your conference’s RPI rank has been shown to be important in the past.

  9. LRM 01/29/2008 at 2:49 PM #

    Wufpup,
    Forde’s comments about State seem fair and accurate. And if anything, I see it as further support for his argument about the unpredictable Big East this season.

    The shame of it all is that they’ll send eight or nine teams dancing while the ACC — this season, like so many others, its own worst enemy — will only send four.

    Playing in the ACC in basketball is like playing in the SEC in football. A lot of good teams losing to better teams.

  10. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 3:05 PM #

    I think the ACC will send at least 5, maybe 6 to the dance. Here are my five —

    UNC
    Duke
    Clemson
    State
    GT

    BC/VT/Maryland (hell, everyone else in the ACC) are wild cards…..

  11. primacyone 01/29/2008 at 3:14 PM #

    A couple of NCSU basketball headlines today at WRAL main sports page.

    http://www.wral.com/sports/

  12. primacyone 01/29/2008 at 3:15 PM #

    The GT loss could haunt us all season. We should have won that game.

  13. wufpup76 01/29/2008 at 3:15 PM #

    ^LRM, i agree, i have no problem at all with forde calling out nc state and as you said his comments do seem fair … that said, if it were duke, chapel hill, or syracuse being called out you would most likely also see reasons as to why they are struggling, as well as any decent wins they may have had … it’s fine to be critical, but i would also like to see credit where it is due

    a lot of times, teams that have been disappointing get called out primarly b/c they have made the media’s preseason prognostications look bad – and forde did have state rated highly (as did many others who drank the proverbial kool aid) … i don’t have a problem with admitting NC State’s disappointments thus far, but there is another side to the story which is not told, which are the reasons why nc state has been disappointing

    i would just like to see the same fair coverage applied to teams like duke, chapel hill, and syracuse applied to teams like nc state (and the rest of the media “have nots”)

  14. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 3:17 PM #

    I thought his comments were fair and accurate also.

    When he said, “Since the Pack won their last national title and made their last Final Four in 1983, Duke has been there 10 times and won three titles, while Carolina has made seven Final Fours and won two titles. At this point, it looks like another year of State fans watching their rivals earn all the glory” — he was right on…and at least (unlike some other writers) he acknowledged that YES, we are RIVALS with UNC and Duke. some will go as far as say we aren’t Rivals since we haven’t been to a Final Four since ’83, blah, blah, blah.

  15. bTHEredterror 01/29/2008 at 3:37 PM #

    /\Agreed. You lose 10 conference games and you will have no argument. Even upsets of both Duke and UNC won’t help.

    I’m not so pessimistic quite yet, things are bleak and the team looks like a 5-11 aquad at times. But having said that, they are a five-minutes-to-go-breakdown vs GT from being in third place right now. If State can just go into Durham and come out with a good effort, I don’t see an upset, but we can build on the positives if we can carry the game until late. Then finish the first half in the hunt at 4-4 with wins against young WF and VT at home.

    With our young PGs still learning on the fly, the Maryland game on the road is probably not winnable. But they should be far enough along by the BC, Virginia, and Wake games for those to seem winnable at this point. I can see going 5-3 down the stretch, but they will probably be 4-4, Losing to UNC, Duke, Maryland and Wake in a WTFer. I think the Pack will beat FSU and Clemson at home.

    Remember that killer schedule works two ways, our increased SOS from having to play the 3 big boys twice and the three opportunities to win a game against a current top 5 team.

    If PG play improves at the same pace and Costner re-emerges late, they could have a big Tourney run and steal a bid at 7-9. But they likely need to be at least 8-8 due to the UNO & ECU losses.

  16. LRM 01/29/2008 at 4:00 PM #

    We seriously NEED to go a tear like Maryland did last season, winning 8 of their last 9 conference games after a 2-5 start.

    Do that, and all the bubble talk becomes moot. But we’ve got to figure out a way to play consistently good basketball and right now, we’re not even close.

  17. Garrett 01/29/2008 at 5:50 PM #

    BJD95, I agree (as I think most would) that the acc is completely muddled together at this point. Clemson SHOULD be the third best team in the league, but their performance hasn’t separated them at all.

    I keep reading suggestions that 8-8 gives us a legitimate shot at getting to the dance but, barring a run into the ACCT finals, I don’t see it. A 4-4 start and 5-3 finish along with a first round tourney win is what we really need to feel any kind of comfort on selection sunday.

    That said, we need Javy to keep improving, Fells to keep shooting, Gavin to recover his late game leadership, and for Big Ben and JJ to keep learning how to play off one another. I DON’T see BC getting back into last season’s form anytime soon, and don’t think its absolutely necessary for a 9-7 record. Play with the emotion we’ve shown over our last 3, and keep improving as a team and we can still have a successful season.

    Let’s hope we walk into cameron thursday night determined to take it to the dookies and at least give them a run for their money!

  18. Wait_Til_This_Year 01/29/2008 at 6:12 PM #

    Playing Duke at Cameron will probably be one of the worst possible environments for our guards. We haven’t seen much full court pressure since UNC and Clemson, and it will be interesting to see how Javi and MJ react.

  19. wufpup76 01/29/2008 at 7:14 PM #

    “Let’s hope we walk into cameron thursday night determined to take it to the dookies and at least give them a run for their money!”

    amen … win or lose, i will be most pleased if we go in there with a positive, determined attitude – especially our guards … nothing makes me more furious as a fan than to see your team walk onto a court frightened, intimidated, and knowing that they are going to lose – possibly badly … I HATE THAT …

    man up, have some pride, be aggressive … even if we lose i would LOVE that team

    go pack

  20. Primewolf 01/29/2008 at 7:50 PM #

    My projection on the other board was 5-11. Wasn’t that our conf record last year.

    I hope Brandon gets his confidence and fight back, but regardless, it is hard to imaagine this coached team making it to the dance.

    I would love to be so wrong, but it is hard to see where those wins are coming from. I would think most teams look forward to playing us. We take so many fewer shots per game than every team we play, we get outrebounded, haven’t been able to create many turnovers, our defense goes lax for a good portion of a game, our guys are not in the best of shape, anw we can’t seem to shoot consistently from the outside.

    Other than that, we are fine.

  21. BillyVest 01/29/2008 at 8:41 PM #

    As bad as the Ga. Tech loss was for us, getting one back on the road is huge against FSU.

    I can see this team maybe winning 7 more games, tops, if everything goes well – Va. Tech, Wake Forest, @BC, Clemson, @UVa, FSU, and @ Wake Forest – though I can see us losing 3 or 4 of those games as well.

    I just hope we start playing stronger and our PG play improves.

    I pray Costner can return to form. If he does, that’d be a huge improvement for us.

  22. VaWolf82 01/29/2008 at 10:26 PM #

    It involves alot of gut-based conjecture on my part (paging VaWolf…), but I think that 7-9 puts all (or almost all) of the non-Duke/UNC teams into NCAAT limbo range, with RPIs in the 40s or 50s.

    Jeff and I disagree about the chances of a 7-9 team getting an invite. I think that a 7-9 team will have to finish strong in Feb and win at least two games in the ACCT…regardless of RPI.

  23. VaWolf82 01/29/2008 at 10:34 PM #

    Not to get off topic, but any plans to do a detailed piece about football recruiting with signing day coming up?

    There is no editoral board here at SFN (just sports addicts that enjoy discussing NC State sports) so it is impossible for anyone to give a definitive answer to this question. No one in the past has done one, so I wouldn’t recommend holding your breath waiting for one this year.

    There are at least two sites that provide in-depth recruiting info. Speaking only for myself, tracking the latest utterings of 16/17 year old kids holds absolutely no appeal whatsoever. Once they have committed to the Pack, then I’m interested in reading about them. Scout and Rivals should provide more than enough info for those that are really interested in more details.

    I’ve seen enough highly-rated kids bomb and enough no-name kids play in the NFL, that I prefer to wait and see what they do in Raleigh….but that’s just me.

  24. doug74 01/29/2008 at 10:38 PM #

    One thing I like about this team is how they don’t pay attention to our predictions. We are improving rapidly and could have a breakout game. I know that Duke plays hard and well but think our guys, including the rookies, have better BBall IQ’s than they’re given credit for sometimes.

  25. PapaJohn 01/30/2008 at 4:30 AM #

    Yes, a little whine with my cheese please –
    Okay, perhaps two years does not a pattern make, but didn’t we stink up the season similarly last year and slowly improve till we got our hopes up at the end of the season?
    You think this could be a lack of off season preparation? Failure to get serious until the regular season starts? And then it’s too late? Maybe they got satisfied with their end of season run last year and tried to dial it in early this year?
    It’s not a perfect parallel to last year (yet), but it is sure smelling the same. About this time last year we were talking about being out of contention for the dance and hoping for the NIT, barring a miracle.
    Why is it taking so long to see this team play to its potential? And what in the world happened to Costner? I’m not buying the PG issue as our problem, I lay it squarely on Costner -for whatever reason. (injury?) If you were to do a statistical analysis and add half of his overall production from last year, we’d be a top tier team. A team our so called rivals would worry about. At this point Duke and UNC know that as long as they don’t give the game away, they’ll beat us. Our best just gets us closer.
    I really came into this season excited, but once again the Wolfpack is not living up to expectations, nor even to their potential. I HATE losing, but if they lose and just don’t have the guns to get it done but they give it their best, I’ll get over it. But we still have not played one complete game this year. It is tough to be a Pack fan. Life would be SO MUCH EASIER if I liked blue.
    I DREAD THURSDAY NIGHT!

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