Making Sense of the ACC

ESPN.com’s expanded ACC standings.

I probably should have added a question mark to the title, because it’s a difficult task. One thing is abundantly clear – Duke and UNC are significantly better than everyone else. I expect them both to be no worse than #2 seeds in the NCAAT. Damn it.

After that, it’s less clear. My gut has always said that Clemson is the third “good” team, but we have a statistically significant sample to analyze now. The Tigers are 0-2 in conference on the road, and only 3-3 overall (despite having played 4 home games). Perhaps more alarming is that Clemson needed overtime to hold off Wake and Florida State at home. Boston College is 3-2, but it’s hard to take them seriously after a home loss to Virginia Tech. The Eagles have also yet to face UNC, Duke, or Clemson.

Several teams were projected as possible/likely doormats this season, most notably Miami, Wake, and Virginia Tech. All 3 have exceeded expectations so far, especially the Hokies – who already have two road wins in the conference. Thus, I think one can make a fair argument that very little separates teams 3-12 in the ACC.

How does this affect the post-season chase? Well, it depends on how everything shakes out. Even assuming UNC and Duke max out at 15-1 and 14-2, respectively (which is unlikely, but possible), that leaves a total of 67 wins for the other 10 teams to divvy up, for a median figure of 6.7. Certainly, there will eventually be some separation, with at least a few teams reaching 8 or 9 ACC wins.

But what if those few happen to be teams like Virginia Tech, Maryland, and Georgia Tech – all of whom had very poor OOC results? Those teams might need at least 9 conference wins to be comfortable on Selection Sunday. In a parity-filled ACCT, you could also have 5-11 or 6-10 teams in the semifinals, rather than legitimate bubble teams. In such a jumbled scenario, the most balanced (and I would say best) conference in the nation could end up with only 3 or 4 NCAAT bids, and a whole slew of high NIT seeds.

How does this affect the Pack? In my view, it still looks like 5-11 or 6-10. State’s remaining schedule includes 3 games that we would lose 99 times out of 100 – vs. UNC, vs. Duke, at Duke. The matchups are just awful for the Pack. That leaves 8 other “toss up” games, of which we would likely win no more than half. If you believe (as I do) that luck tends to even out over time, we are likely due for some bad bounces of the ball after fortunate endings against Miami and FSU. That makes 6-10 look more like a ceiling than a projection. Of course, I am also a raging pessimist, so take what I say at face value.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

07-08 Basketball

67 Responses to Making Sense of the ACC

  1. choppack1 01/29/2008 at 10:30 AM #

    Keep in mind – we’re 2-1 in these close games. So, we’re not blowing the curve out.

    I’ve never seen a year so competitive -but it’s early and teams haven’t quit yet and some haven’t had key injuries yet. These things could all shape the way things go down the stretch.

  2. packgrad2000 01/29/2008 at 10:39 AM #

    If we could somehow win 6 of those 8 “toss-ups), we’d finish at 8-8. Now I realize that 8-8 at this point is a very Gavin Grant-like goal, but it could happen. Brandon Costner will certainly have to wake up to go 8-8. So I would say our “ceiling” is 8 wins, our “floor” 4 wins, which means we’re likely to finish somewhere in the middle, so my projection is we finish 6-10.
    Also remember GT could have gone the other way too, as we were up with just a few minutes remaining.
    Does anybody in the ACC have a tougher in-conference schedule than us? We play UNC, Duke, and Clemson all twice. We already have the deck stacked against us.

  3. Jamie 01/29/2008 at 10:40 AM #

    SFN: Fixed – thanks.

  4. packbackr04 01/29/2008 at 11:06 AM #

    its just like in football, we havent played Duke in like 3 yrs. andeveyrone else gets that “guarenteed” win. heres a hypothetical.. if we played Duke last yr, could we have made a bowl? If Caolina didnt get to play Duke last yr, would Butch Davis Still be coaching there>?

  5. LRM 01/29/2008 at 11:08 AM #

    Why does it feel like losing to GT at home was a major missed opportunity for us?

    SFN: Because it really, really was.

    Assuming we could split with Wake and Clemson and also beat VT at home, we’d need to win at least three more to even be on the bubble at 8-8 (with a must-win in the Tourney). That means we’ll either have to sweep VT, MD, and VA, with MD & VA on the road, or pull off a miraculous home victory against NC and/or Duke.

    I think I’m going to be nauseus.

  6. packbackr04 01/29/2008 at 11:09 AM #

    also interesting to see in the standings is that we score far fewer points than anyone else in conference, (not like i needed to see the standings to realize that, but interesting none the less)

  7. DAMangum 01/29/2008 at 11:14 AM #

    We have to make a strong run in the ACC tourney to even have a chance at the big dance, unless we pull something out of our a$$. Or Costner finally plays up to his ability and I think we have to beat Puke or Carowina at home! Oh yeah, why haven’t we played the Dookies in so long at football? It doesn’t make any sense why we are not playing a school less than 30 minutes away in the same conference.

  8. DAMangum 01/29/2008 at 11:16 AM #

    If someone does know why we haven’t played them at football please inform me why!

  9. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 11:16 AM #

    We will either beat Duke, Clemson or Carolina at the RBC….”bank” on it!! maybe even 2 of the 3!!

  10. ChuckAllYall 01/29/2008 at 11:24 AM #

    SFN– Thanks for the great insight you provide into Wolfpack sports and the forum you provided for us “fringers”. Not to get off topic, but any plans to do a detailed piece about football recruiting with signing day coming up? Thanks again!

  11. Ed89 01/29/2008 at 11:33 AM #

    More good football recruiting news:

    http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/2/724380.html

    Anyone heard any news on basketball recruiting? Any chance we get a 2009 commit this Spring?? I think Wall wants to wait until next year.

  12. BJD95 01/29/2008 at 11:38 AM #

    I’m not much of a recruiting guru, certainly at the detailed level. I do think that TOB has done a very good job and far exceeded expectations with his first real recruiting class.

  13. choppack1 01/29/2008 at 11:50 AM #

    “Does anybody in the ACC have a tougher in-conference schedule than us? We play UNC, Duke, and Clemson all twice. We already have the deck stacked against us”

    I’ll go you one further – look at how the games are scheduled:

    We play our next 3 games in 5 days. We then follow that up w/ another Thursday – Saturday 2fer. (One day prep and rest for that one.)

    Finally, as if the schedule hasn’t been odd enough for us- we have our “off” week the week before the tourney, so we don’t get that nice regrouping that benefitted our football team. We play 1 game for an 11 day stretch in March. Hopefully, we’ll handle that layoff better than we handled the last one!

  14. Rochester 01/29/2008 at 11:50 AM #

    Trevor Booker suffered a high ankle sprain in Clemson’s loss this weekend. They seem to think he’ll be back in a week or so, but if that takes longer (and we know how those high ankle sprains can linger) that hurts Clemson a bit. I think he’s their leading scorer and rebounder. They lost to Miami without him.

    And I’m not ready to write the home game against Clemson off. They are good, but if we show up with our heads not up our asses, they are not 20 points better than us. (I realize that can be a big if.)

  15. Wait_Til_This_Year 01/29/2008 at 12:35 PM #

    All these tough teams will always help our RPI though. Are they not trying to put more emphasis on RPI these days?

  16. wufpup76 01/29/2008 at 12:44 PM #

    “If you believe (as I do) that luck tends to even out over time, we are likely due for some bad bounces of the ball after fortunate endings against Miami and FSU.”

    that’s one way to look at … another is to look back at our past 20 or so years of sh**ty luck and think they we’re due for even more good fortune not only this season but for many more future seasons 🙂

    the acc will definitely get 3 in, and *could* strecth to 4 or 5 depending on who distinguishes themselves as noted in the entry … we’ve definitely got a shot, but i don’t really think we make ourselves a “lock” w/out getting to 9 or 10 conf. wins – which includes beating clemson @ home (a must) and getting one of three vs. the blue bloods … i hope the team sees these games as opportunities rather than something to be afraid of (which has ALWAYS been the case in years past)

    go pack!

  17. wufpup76 01/29/2008 at 12:45 PM #

    ^oops – that’s supposed to say “and think THAT we’re due …” up there 🙁

  18. BJD95 01/29/2008 at 12:48 PM #

    The problem with RPI is that none of the 3-12 teams really had a great OOC performance that would put them on solid ground at 7-9 in ACC play. It involves alot of gut-based conjecture on my part (paging VaWolf…), but I think that 7-9 puts all (or almost all) of the non-Duke/UNC teams into NCAAT limbo range, with RPIs in the 40s or 50s.

  19. Texpack 01/29/2008 at 1:00 PM #

    8-8 with a neutral court win over Nova and a road win against Seton Hall will put us around 40-45 in the RPI. The committee doesn’t really care what our conference record is. It only matters because of it’s impact on the RPI. The fact that the ACC will likely end up as the #1 RPI conference will help any bubble teams from the ACC. I still (foolishly?) believe that our offense is going to improve as MJ and Javi improve and BC is going to wake up. A win against Dook or UNC-CH would make us a lock at 8-8 especially if it happens in Duuum. IF GT can get on a roll that loss won’t look as bad come March.

  20. triadwolf 01/29/2008 at 1:09 PM #

    Unfortunately for us, many of our “wins” that were penciled in during the pre-season are now half erased. We are not playing as well most of us predicted and many of the pre-season bottom dwellers are playing competitive ball. Before the UNC-MD game who had Maryland as a win for us? How about now – especially at their place.

    The bright side is that I think we are earning our wins as opposed to the other teams letting us win. It certainly is not pretty, but the effort over the last couple of weeks is encouraging.

    BTW I see a lot of people using the “if Costner wakes up” scenerio as a possiblity to save our season. Unless there is a drastic change or injury, I now don’t see Costner getting enough playing time from here on out to effect us either way.

  21. LRM 01/29/2008 at 1:14 PM #

    This reminds me of those years where Dave Odom’s argument for his 6-10 and 7-9 teams making the tournament was that six of the losses were to Carolina, Duke, and Maryland but he had a winning record against the rest of the league.

  22. CEK NCSU 01/29/2008 at 1:17 PM #

    Our basketball team seems to be a disjunctioned mess at the moment. We have all seen it. Sometimes they are on fire and sometimes they just look half asleep. Honestly, I don’t see Costner waking up until the end of Feb., and I’m praying for Fells to stay as hot as he has been.

    On a separate note…anyone see Pack Pride today and “The Scoop”? There was something about a coach trying to dirty NC State on there and I’m not a subscriber, but was interested in who it was.

  23. triadwolf 01/29/2008 at 1:22 PM #

    LRM – That’s a good analogy. But I don’t think Odom had losses to NO and ECU to counter is position. Also, Wake “looked” a lot better on the court than we do. One big hurdle we have is the perception of how good/bad we are. We have to begin looking a lot better to change those perceptions regardless of RPI. Right now if we are on the bubble I don’t think we get in because of our reputation to date.

  24. LRM 01/29/2008 at 1:42 PM #

    Triad,
    My bad…I meant the ACC only having two quality teams and then muddled parity from 3-8.

  25. Trip 01/29/2008 at 1:42 PM #

    Right now we’re riding Fells, but Fells isn’t going to be able to shoot 60% from the 3 forever. Hopefully we can ride Fells long enough for Costner to wakeup.

    If Costner wakes up soon, we can get into the NCAA, probably with 8-8 and a win or 2 in the ACC tournament.

    If he decides to not play, come on fells, keep on shooting 60%…

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