NC State 74 SC State 49 (Updated Sunday)

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A lot of different guys played legitimate minutes for the Wolfpack today. State ‘advances’ to 5-3 despite shooting 2 of 16 from the three-point line and 18-30 from the free throw line.

Of note:
* Javi Gonzalez played more minutes than Farnold Degand
* Tracy Smith played double figure minutes (but went 0-4 from the free throw line).
* Simon Harris also played a lot in the first half (so, it wasn’t just mop-up minutes).

If you are a little concerned about the final score, note that State led 60-33 with almost thirteen minutes remaining when Gavin Grant and JJ Hickson were relegated to the bench for the rest of the game. We did not score another basket for approximately nine minutes.

More from ACCNow is available here.

State coach Sidney Lowe used more players, 10 in the first half, perhaps sending a message to incumbents like Courtney Fells who played only four minutes in the first half, that anyone unwilling to play defense or rebound will not be on the floor.

ACCNow also highlighted what we proposed as NC State’s most important key to having a good season after the first game of the year – outside shooting from the point guard position. (Obviously, we presumed that any college basketball team would be able to play adequate defense and rebound)

As we said before – the Wolfpack does not need a point guard to make 3 to 5 three pointers per game for us to succeed. What we need is for our point guard to simply hit the majority of 3-point attempts when they are WIDE – I mean WIDE – open.

Our offense – and the zone defenses that we will see because of the strength of our front court – will create two or three WIDE open looks for the point guard. It’s just that simple. Hitting those shots from the point guard position will ultimately create an inordinate impact on our performance.

The N&O expressed it as follows on Saturday:

Degand went three straight possessions without taking the shot, but finally stepped into the gap of the zone and knocked down the 3. If N.C. State is going to be better than the team that started 4-3, Degand, or Javier Gonzalez, has to be able to reprise Engin Atsur’s role at point guard.

That means one of the two, or Tennessee transfer Marques Johnson who’s eligible to play against Davidson on Dec. 21, has to be able to knock down an outside shot.

Clearly Hickson’s good enough to handle the inside portion of the equation, but even an undersized team like S.C. State had some degree of success in double-teaming him on Saturday.

The inside-out philosophy doesn’t work without the out.

For more from the game, wufpup76 shared a lot of insight in our comments section at 5:13 pm on Saturday. Please feel free to share your thoughts and observations.

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07-08 Basketball

85 Responses to NC State 74 SC State 49 (Updated Sunday)

  1. PackGirl 12/16/2007 at 3:57 PM #

    I’m glad to see the press saying bad things about us again. They way over-rated us before the season started, and now we’re a big disappointment. We do much better as an underdog.

  2. werncstate 12/16/2007 at 10:35 PM #

    I’m glad to see someone in the press call Costner lazy. The only difference between his game this year and last year is his 3 pointers aren’t falling. I couldn’t believe the talk last year about him leaving early for the NBA. There is no way this guy makes the association unless he learns to bust it every second he’s on the court.

  3. Rick 12/17/2007 at 7:14 AM #

    “I’ve heard that Costner is out of shape. If so, you would expect him to struggle in the areas of rebounding and transition. ”

    You heard? All you have to do is look at him to know he is out of shape. He looks like the Pillsbury dough boy out there. He needs to drop 20 lbs to be effective.

  4. pakfanistan 12/17/2007 at 9:05 AM #

    Do you think Costner’s supposedly minor knee injury might have anything to do with his current condition? Maybe it was more serious that initially reported?

    It would make a lot of sense, and do a lot to explain why he is so out of shape, if he couldn’t train the way he was because of his knee.

    I have a hard time believing that he doesn’t know the way he’s performing right now is significantly impaired by his weight.

  5. pakfanistan 12/17/2007 at 9:06 AM #

    Just incase people don’t remember, that knee injury was over the summer….

    http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/tudor/2007/v-print/story/644698.html

  6. PackGirl 12/17/2007 at 9:16 AM #

    Does anyone know what kind of an outside shooter Marques Johnson is? We could use some help there for sure. I just checked the stats and surprisingly, Degand has our best 3-pt % at .467, but he’s ony taken 15 shots (7/15). Grant is second at .364 (8/22) and Fells third at .314 (11/35). Horner seems to have really fallen off this year on 3’s (1/8 or .125). Very few attempts considering he’s averaging 17 mins/game.

  7. packgrad93 12/17/2007 at 10:54 AM #

    now we need players with a high bball IQ & 3-pt shooters instead of just athletes?

  8. Trip 12/17/2007 at 11:33 AM #

    Johnson, from what I’ve read, is an above average (Not a sniper) 3 pt shooter. He releases his jumper a little early it seems so it doesn’t arc a lot, but it tends to work. He’s made some circus shots over his career too in high school from a few of the games I read on, some half court buzzer-beater heaves that tend to make it in for some reason. I’d wager that he’ll be a 40% 3 pt shooter by the end of the season.

    Some stats that I managed to find from high school. It’s hard finding stats for high schoolers it seems.

    http://www.dakstats.com/WebSync/Pages/Team/IndividualStats.aspx?association=26&sg=MBB&sea=AAUMBB_2004&team=5013&plr=14566
    Over a 4 game period-
    45.3% FG – 24-53
    31.8% 3P – 7-22 – Ehh.
    87.0% FT – 20-23 <—– This number is HUGE. Degand has choked at the FT line when the game is in it’s final minutes. If Johnson can continue shooting at that rate I have no doubt that he’ll be the man to close the game with.

    http://www.dakstats.com/WebSync/Pages/Team/IndividualStats.aspx?association=26&sg=MBB&sea=AAUMBB_2004&team=5012&plr=15149
    3 game period-
    52.6% FG – 9-16
    50.0% 3P – 12-24 <—- Woohoo!
    56.3% FT – 18-32 <—- Maybe not.

    Put all of those games together to average it out and he’s shooting…
    48% FG – 33-69
    41% 3P – 19-46
    69% FT – 38-55

    Not bad overall I suppose, hopefully he shoots more like the first 4 games FT wise. An interesting sidebit though, apparently at the last half of his senior year he was forced to play at the 3 position as a small forward. The technician had a recent article on him that mentioned that.

    http://media.www.technicianonline.com/media/storage/paper848/news/2007/12/05/Sports/Johnson.Hoping.To.Change.His.Luck-3132003.shtml

    Some quotes from that.

    “While Johnson and Parker played together in many situations, they also continued to play one-on-one religiously. It was here that Parker discovered how much Johnson hates to lose.” <— We need this.

    “Thirteen is typically regarded as an unlucky number. Marques Johnson, a sophomore point guard who becomes eligible at the end of the semester after transferring from Tennessee, wears the number 13 to represent unlucky situations that have taken place throughout his basketball journey.” <—- Us against the world mentality.

    “Playing at Snider High School, Johnson had standout seasons in his first three years and was highly-touted for his natural scorer’s mentality, solid handles and deep-range jumper. Unfortunately for him, many forgot about the high school superstar due to an unlucky finish to his high school career, as he played out of position for most of his senior year.” <—- The links above put him playing as a Forward during the AAU tournament.

    More evalulations out of high school.

    http://www.prepstars.com/rankings_and_school_lists/player_profiles/class_of_2006/marquesjohnson.jsp

    Gathering up everything it seems these are his final +/-‘s.

    +Good 3 pt shot.
    +Rarely turns it over, he had 0 turnovers in all of the games mentioned above if you throw out one game where he had 8 (Bad game i guess.)
    +Likes to use his size to shove around other guards to create opportunity.
    +Toughness. I want a guy who hates to lose.
    +Shot blocker.

    -Quickness. One of the things that was repeated in a few articles was that he had trouble defending against quicker guards. He seems to have no problem on the offensive end against them, but as was seen in the Red/White game, he racked up 8 fouls trying to defend mr. lightning Degand.
    -Attitude. This probably comes from his “Hate to lose” mentality, but he seems to have issues when things aren’t going his way. This could be good if it fuels him in a game.

    Right out of high school his recruit ranking was up in the air, a lot of people at TN (Reading their volnation forums) seemed to think he wasn’t good enough for them because they had only watched him playing out of position as a forward.

  9. Trip 12/17/2007 at 11:35 AM #

    Awww, terrible. My comment is awaiting moderation… I did a lot of research on that too.

  10. Rick 12/17/2007 at 12:18 PM #

    “now we need players with a high bball IQ & 3-pt shooters instead of just athletes?”

    Your comments are so stupid, I wonder how you even get dressed in the morning.

  11. choppack1 12/17/2007 at 1:06 PM #

    Wolfpup – I see where you’re coming from. However, you’d think Sidney, Monte and Coach Harris could said that as well. Let’s remember, he’s had some surgery which has probably impacted his ball handling, shooting and strength – all areas that he needs to improve. In addition, this injury has probably cost him valuable practice time too.

    If we want more quickness, I’d like to see us play Farnold and Javy at the same time, move Fells to the 3 and Grant to the 4. No matter who play at the 5, we’re faster.

  12. ShootingGuard 12/17/2007 at 1:39 PM #

    “now we need players with a high bball IQ & 3-pt shooters instead of just athletes?”

    That would be nice, but we were supposed to have that with the “solid” foundation that mighty Herb Sendek left—big “interchangeable parts” with “high basketball IQ’s” and “character quotients” who can play inside and outside, pass and shoot…You know, like “the next Nowitski,” Adam Simons…

    Instead, we are suffering from the same thing that kept the program down for all of the great Herb Sendek’s decade tenure of frustration…No point guard, no elite talent and leadership from the point guard slot…

    This team reminds me a lot of the team Skip Prosser had after Chris Paul left. Skip Prosser, as we all know, was a much better college coach than Herb Sendek (or Sidney Lowe so far) as evidenced by the fact that Skip DOMINATED Herb Sendek on the court, even going so far as to actually win the ACC regular season race (Duke AND UNC were both still in the ACC at that time—imagine!). Skip also dominated Herb on the recruiting trail for guys like Justin Gray (whose mom went to State) and Eric Williams (who played right down the road from Raleigh). Skip brought all of those fine guys Herb wanted back after Chris Paul left, but, without major talent and leadership at the point, Wake dropped all the way to the bottom of the ACC even with a “solid” foundation everywhere except point guard.

    (Of course, even in the cellar with little to play for, Skip trounced Herbie and his senior laden with all of the “solid” foundation we have now supporting them, 10 years in the making, decade built, pinnacle of a Herb ACC program not once but TWICE in one week in completely embarrassing fashion…A great set-up for the pounding they would take one week later…Boy, I miss those days!)

    Sid and the guys need to scrap and claw for all they can get, because it won’t be easy with the lack of experience and leadership we have at the point (this is not a cut on Degand, Javy, or MJ—they may turn out to be very solid, but they just don’t give us an advantage with their talent or command respect with their composure and leadership at this point, 8 games or less into their respective college careers, which is understandable knowing how they got here in the first place).

  13. packgrad93 12/17/2007 at 2:33 PM #

    Skip had 2 NBA starters handed to him in Howard & Paul. A team can go a long way building around that kind of talent. He also came into a much better situation than Herb came into. He was a heck of a coach & took that program to the next level.

    “Skip trounced Herbie and his senior laden with all of the “solid” foundation we have now supporting them,”

    Costner was injured, Fells/Ben were true frosh behind Ced & Cam.

    Question: If Sid could land a top center, why not a top PG? Maybe he felt/feels he has that position covered.

    I’m not concerned about this squad. They just need time to gel. I support Sid more than most on here that question everything the man does. Maybe we need a site named StateFringeNation.

  14. PackGirl 12/17/2007 at 2:51 PM #

    Thanks Trip for the roundup of stats on Marques. Sounds like there is some good potential there, especially if he was playing out of position his senior year. let’s hope he’s been practicing 3’s and FTs relgiously, during his “time off”. I’m relatively happy with Degand’s play so far but Javi has a ways to go. MJ might make a better back-up (or maybe even starter) for this year.

  15. wufpup76 12/17/2007 at 3:27 PM #

    ^ yes, nice work Trip … awesome finds on Johnson

  16. ShootingGuard 12/17/2007 at 5:28 PM #

    “Skip had 2 NBA starters handed to him in Howard & Paul. A team can go a long way building around that kind of talent.”

    Uh, Herb, that great evaluator of talent that he was, had every opportunity to bring Howard to State, but he decided to go in a different direction (a fine decision along the lines of his Steve Blake & Chris Wilcox decisions, among many others). Is it somebody else’s fault that Herb couldn’t recognize NBA talent and reel it in?

    Skip went up against Herbie to get Paul’s signature. If Paul was handed to Skip, it was by Sendek and his dynamic personality and charisma. Why didn’t the great Sendek, after all those years of positive momentum in the ACC, land Paul? Why did Chris Paul think some newbie to the ACC was going to help him succeed over the great point guard coach at NC State?

    “He also came into a much better situation than Herb came into.”

    Uh, Herb had been here several years before Skip got to Wake. You would think that, in that amount of time, Herbie might have improved his own situation. Are you saying Wake was still a much better situation than State, even after several years of Sendek? (And you still have wet dreams about Herb?) That’s funny, because Wake’s AD wasn’t satisfied at all with where Wake was at that time. That’s why Ron Wellman ran off the winningest coach in Wake’s history and a 2-time ACC Title winner—because Wake was stagnating. Apparently, stagnating at Wake Forest was still a “much better situation” than years of Sendek. Fortunately for Wake, they didn’t want to accept running in place. Unfortunately for State, Lee Fowler and some State fans think stagnation at a supreme program like Wake’s is way better than could ever hope to be obtained at State.

    “Costner was injured, Fells/Ben were true frosh behind Ced & Cam.”

    I like how you gloss over the “senior laden” parts and how this was after a decade of Sendek. 10 years of program building and an injury to a freshman is the reason that State got waxed at home by Roy’s walk-ons and totally obliterated by last place Wake, without Howard or Paul, twice in one week? At least Herb’s teams were consistent!

    “Question: If Sid could land a top center, why not a top PG? Maybe he felt/feels he has that position covered.”

    Are you criticizing Sid for not landing a top point guard that would be here this year right out of the shoot, coming in after the mess your hero Fowler created? Why couldn’t Herb recruit an elite level point guard for more than a decade? I think Sid did about the best he could under the circumstances in his first 2 classes in an era where almost all of the best guys commit way early.

    I can assure you that Sid does not feel that he has the point position “covered.” It is very important to the future of the (NC) State program for Sid to make a big splash with the 2009 class. Not so that fans can sit around and talk “WTNY” or “the next Nowitski” or “Evtimov = Bird” or “where would our second team finish?” or act like one recruit can carry a program, but so we can take it to the next level. The only way that will happen is with elite level talent in the backcourt, especially at “lead guard.” Otherwise, we will continue to disappoint and frustrate—and lord knows, except for the run at the end of last year, we have had way too much of that over the previous decade…

  17. Wulfpack 12/17/2007 at 5:48 PM #

    ^Drop it. Many of us, on either side of the debate, have dropped that garbage and are now focused on today. I’m not sure what your point really is. Highlighting the inefficiencies of the past and blindly ignoring any strides that were made to this program, awakening it from the living dead of the ACC but falling well short of most of our collective expecations, is not doing any of us any good today.

  18. JeremyH 12/17/2007 at 7:18 PM #

    Hi, my comment from the 15th that I spent a bunch of time putting up is still waiting moderation. thank you SFN.

  19. MrPlywood 12/17/2007 at 11:32 PM #

    re: Shooting Guard’s post…

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

  20. Trip 12/18/2007 at 11:23 AM #

    I’m not saying that Marques Johnson is going to swoop down and fix all of our problems, but, he seems to have the resume that we need at the guard position. According to where I read somewhere he’s actually listed at 6’6 and 215 pounds when he came to TN, so he’s a HUGE PG. Just imagine the matchup issues now that we can field 5 people at their proper positions at 6’6 215, 6’9 242 , 6’9 238, 6’8 208, 6’5 205 with Johnson/Hickson/Costner/Grant/Fells. That’s a combined 33 feet and 1108 pounds, I really don’t believe there is a division 1 team capable of putting out a TALENTED lineup of that size. Sure we’ll be a tad slow on the defensive end, but if they play smart defense I could see that being a nightmare… IF Costner ever decides to wakeup and Johnson can hit wide open threes when Fells is sulking.

  21. redfred2 12/18/2007 at 6:28 PM #

    Ah, but I do LOVE threads that turn out like this!!!

    “now we need players with a high bball IQ & 3-pt shooters instead of just athletes?”

    Uh, yeah packgrad93, we believe have a freshman athlete, recruited the current coach, that is almost unstoppable when played one on one. All we need now is a couple of other four players that were left from YOUR coach to step up and hit a shot every once in a while and keep the defense honest. But, in their defense, this is all new to them, they have never played with a real “center” while in college, one that plays basketball where a “center” is supposed to play, so they’re all trying to remember back to their high school days, where the game was played, and coached, as it should be. Maybe it’ll all come back to them in time.

    “Highlighting the inefficiencies of the past and blindly ignoring any strides that were made to this program, awakening it from the living dead of the ACC but falling well short of most of our collective expecations, is not doing any of us any good today.”

    Wulfpack, what you and packgrad93 don’t understand is that with time, ANY Coach even halfway worth his salt could have come to NC State and made “strides” over what was going on BACK THEN. Plus, NC State still had an identity that the majority of it’s fans could relate to. All of that was brushed aside and forgotten in favor of a whole new “system” of how to play basketball.

    NOTE: Please do not forget, it was the NCAA who put the sanctions on the NC State basketball program back in those days. It is very ironic to me that some of the LOUDEST Herb defenders absolutely hate and have no tolerance for a hand cuffed coach named Les Robinson.

  22. redfred2 12/18/2007 at 8:00 PM #

    Trip, take out Fells and Costner (for now). Insert Grant at the 2 spot and McCauley in for Costner until he gets in shape, then have a rotation. Fells then needs to sit. This not a “team” because they are too dependant on Fells right now, and he is way too inconsistent for that. He needs to come in after five or six minutes of play, show that he has his head right, is going to play hard, and contribute the whole time he’s out there. If he comes out strong, and then disappears like normal, he needs to have a seat. In my opinion, Fells has never shown that he is a starter or a player who even wants many minutes. He is a streaky sixth or seventh man off the bench.

  23. Trip 12/19/2007 at 12:50 PM #

    While I don’t think Grant should be moved to the 2 spot, he’s just too big and doesn’t move his feet enough to defend a guard, I do think that maybe Johnson/Degand/Javi could be moved to the 2 spot. Javi isn’t hitting his 3’s (hopefully) because of the thumb injury because his form looks good, so I think a good line up could be Johnson at the point and Degand as a 2, currently Degand is our highest percentage 3P shooter and making him a shooting guard would give him more time to think about shooting rather than holding the ball wide open and not knocking it down. Plus, we could really find out if he can hit 3’s, since currently he hasn’t attempted a lot of them.

  24. packbackr04 12/19/2007 at 2:15 PM #

    what? noone is pining for T-Ferg to get some burn?

  25. PackGirl 12/19/2007 at 8:29 PM #

    I think Fergie could be useful. Apparently his 3-pt shooting is outstanding in practice. Maybe with more in-game experience he could help us with some outside threat.

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