BBall: One Small Reason Why I’m Scared

msu

It’s been a week now since NC State was thoroughly embarassed by Michigan State on a night where the Wolfpack looked lethargic, played little defense and continued to exhibit NO desire to rebound. (I would typically link to the entries related to the loss but they are so ugly that I just can’t).

As I previoulsy mentioned in another entry, at the beginning of the season I projected State to be 4-2 at this point in the season. Despite State’s 4-2 start coupled with a solid #51 RPI while playing the 33rd most difficult schedule in the country, there are A LOT of reasons why Wolfpack fans are a little on edge at the moment.

The ‘macro’ issues of team chemistry, rebounding, defense, effort/energy and free throw shooting have been highlighted in previous entries and comments. This entry from the always good Section Six breaks down some individual statistics worth noting and touches on some of the team chemistry issues:

In many cases, when there’s a player with a usage around 30%, it’s indicative of a good player playing on a team without much of a supporting cast–Bo McCalebb, for instance. But JJ Hickson has plenty of help. Maybe it’s a little bit of “look, shiny new power forward!” syndrome, but more likely, if the chemistry issues are as significant as they appear to be, it’s an indication that the rest of the team can’t figure out how to play with him. Or that when they get him the ball in the post, they give up on the possession. Could they really resent him that much?

I don’t think JJ is being selfish, and his turnovers have inflated his usage to a certain extent, but if Lowe doesn’t think the offense is broken simply because Costner and McCauley have been terrible, the alternative conclusion is that it’s broken because it’s become a single-minded exercise in getting JJ Hickson the basketball. Regardless, there is no fluidity in what we are doing right now. Everyone looks like a square peg attempting to fit into a round hole.

Lowe’s tried to smooth things over by putting McCauley back into the starting lineup, giving him more time with Costner, and bringing Hickson off the bench. But while Ben’s minutes have increased, his productivity hasn’t. And we can’t afford to play Hickson any less–not only is he productive offensively, he’s a shot blocking threat at the defensive end and the team’s best rebounder. So everybody’s gonna have to figure their shit out while JJ is on the floor. There is no other option. We don’t have the luxury of attempting to work the situation out in practice while integrating him into games gradually. He’s far too talented for that, and as a team we are too weak where he is strong.

Despite all of these larger issues that have been discussed through the first month of the 2007-08 season, I have one tee-tiny-little reason why the severity of the beat down in East Lansing is so bothersome – I’m not convinced that the Spartans are really THAT good.

Last night, Michigan State barely survived an upset by Bradley. Ok, that’s just one game. And, don’t forget that this team had UCLA on the ropes before losing to the Bruins by five.

But, take a look at MSU’s schedule for a moment. Need I remind you that the Spartans lost an exhibition game AT HOME to a Div III opponent? This team barely beat Oakland by 4 points and squeaked by a 5-3 Missouri team (currently #79 in the RPI) by only two. I give Michigan State all the credit in the world for PERFORMING like a Top 10 / Top 15 team thusfar this season. But, when I see that the Spartans struggled against some of these lesser teams and defeated NC State by a margin in the same ballpark as Chicago State and Jacksonville State I can’t help but worry about where our boys’ development currently stands.

About StateFans

'StateFansNation' is the shared profile used by any/all of the dozen or so authors that contribute to the blog. You may not always agree with us, but you will have little doubt about where we stand on most issues. Please follow us on Twitter and FaceBook

07-08 Basketball

101 Responses to BBall: One Small Reason Why I’m Scared

  1. StateFoxer 12/05/2007 at 4:02 PM #

    Sort of off topic, but does any one know what type of offense is going to be “Sid’s offense”? I’ve looked at the past two seasons as him doing the best with the parts available. I can’t really get too much of feel from the recruits he’s brought in. Has he said anything? Does anyone have any inside scoop? Guard or front court oriented?

  2. Akula Wolf 12/05/2007 at 4:06 PM #

    “Last year’s team was the best shooting NC State team since the Valvano years. I am certain it is the full record that he was referring to, not the one game.”

    The 2006 team shot the ball better, if only barely: 55.0 eFG% to 54.9% in 2007.

    And Herb’s teams–the ones from ’02 on, anyway–were routinely among the best shooting teams in the nation.

  3. nycfan 12/05/2007 at 4:17 PM #

    just to play a bit of devil’s advocate, zahadum, that kind of insane disparity over the course of more than a single game is really, really weird … it suggests (though I don’t have time to do any analysis) that Hickson is getting a lot better shot opportunities than his fellow post players … this could be entirely due to Hickson’s hard work versus not so much effort from McCauley and Costner, but, anecdotally, it has not appeared to me that State runs plays for anyone in the low post except Hickson when Hickson is in the game and still doesn’t do it very often when he is out …

    Part of the issue for Costner is shot selection; he has taken 48 shots (Hickson has taken 59), but 22 are three point attempts, so he’s only taken 26 2FGA to Hickson’s 59 2 FGA (Hickson has not attempted a three). Worse, Costner is only 9-26 for TWO POINT SHOTS. That is terrible for a big man, but what I do not know is how many of those are 10-15 foot jumpers and how many are genuine post-up opportunities?

  4. beowolf 12/05/2007 at 4:18 PM #

    Akula, when I did those statistics last spring, I did straight-up FG%, not weighted to three-point shooting.

  5. nycfan 12/05/2007 at 4:24 PM #

    Edit to add, that since I looked up the Stats, State’s top 4 scorers after Hickson (Costner, Grant, Fells, Degand — the other starters) have combined for only 94 2FGA (Hickson alone has 59 in that time) — they have 76 3FGA in addition.

    What’s more, those four are only shooting 43-94 2FGA; not horrid but not good — it really indicates that either (i) no one but Hickson can hit layups or (ii) State is getting very few high percentage/point-blank opportunities via fast break, offensive rebounds (*ahem*) or otherwise for anyone but Hickson.

  6. zahadum 12/05/2007 at 4:36 PM #

    Some good points nycfan. Although I don’t really think of feeding a post man on the blocks as ‘running a play’ for him. It would, however, be interesting to see figures on the number of touches on offense for each of our big guys.

    Something else that goes along with what you said; last year one of the staples of our offense was the high pick and roll with either Atsur and Costner or Atsur and McCauley. Since the opposition had to respect Engin’s shooting, that resulted in a lot of open looks for Brandon and Ben.

    By contrast, Degand is, of course, not nearly the shooter Engin was, and I haven’t seen us run that all year. It might be worth trying the pick and roll with Grant or Fells/Costner or McCauley some to see if we can get them some better shot opportunities.

    Also, for Brandon and Ben, can’t help but repeat what every coach I ever had harped on; when your shots not falling, either get a offensive rebound and stickback or run the floor like a madman for an easy layup to get yourself going.

  7. packgrad93 12/05/2007 at 4:39 PM #

    “we have seen these players working together at high levels before, so we don’t have hope in things unseen.”

    we havn’t seen this team work TOGETHER at a high level yet.

  8. zahadum 12/05/2007 at 4:39 PM #

    Nycfan,

    See we’re thinking alike in our last paragraphs. Great minds and all that, eh?

  9. JimValvano 12/05/2007 at 4:54 PM #

    You guys make some valid points, however, the fact that four players have a combined 94 two point field goal attempts and on one player has 59 shows a pretty large disparity between the guys. I think part of what this illustrates is Hickson’s lack of kicking the ball out to the open man. He gets the ball, gets double or triple teamed, puts his head down, and goes to the hoop and throws up a shot. Sometimes it works…sometimes it doesn’t. I think he needs to stand up straight and see where the double/triple team is coming from and hit that open man. Our field goal percentage would be much higher if we got more open shots. What he needs to understand is that by doing this…if we hit open shots…it will force teams to come out of the double and triple teams on him and he will be able to show that when he’s on the block, in a one on one situation…he’s damnear unstoppable.

  10. JimValvano 12/05/2007 at 4:55 PM #

    I’m not a post player, but in order to find my shot when I was off I’d try and take the ball to the rack and maybe get a foul. It’s amazing how easy it is to find the rim when you’ve got ten seconds to focus on it and shoot a free-throw.

  11. Clarksa 12/05/2007 at 4:59 PM #

    I have just come to the conclusion that these guys aren’t goind to be very good at rebounding and defense. Therefore, if we are clicking offensively during the game, we will win…if not, we will lose.

  12. packbackr04 12/05/2007 at 5:28 PM #

    JimV… although i see your point about JJ, its hard to tell a man who is shooting 72% while the rest of the team is shooting 30%, to KICK the ball out when he gets it in the post. and i agree, it might help get the rest of the team going, but it is a tough position to be in for JJ. he feels he can get the job done (and so far he has been able to get it done) and that the rest of his team cant (and thus far they have been unable to get it done). so its hard to fault him, he wants to win, and he feels the best way to win is to pound it in when he gets it… and up to now. i find it hard to prove him wrong

  13. ShootingGuard 12/05/2007 at 5:33 PM #

    Disclaimer: I wish for once, the fans of the CURRENT program could have a discussion without someone making everything revolve around the old coach and old team somehow.

    That said, I am scared about this team as well, but I don’t think using the transitive property with Mich State makes me more or less so. Mich State has a lot of the same problems we do and has tended to play to their competition, like we often do, so far. They played great vs UCLA and have kind of toyed around with everyone else except us. I think they were ready to make a statement vs the ACC against us and played one of their best games of the year. On our part, we went down and took care of business following our screwing around with UNO, and, then, sadly, partied afterward and acted as if that was enough for now. They tried to take the easy road vs Mich State by firing up 3’s, and, when that didn’t work, they packed it in. Only JJ acted liked he really wanted to play on either side of the court that night.

    The thing that is making all of this extra tough for Pack fans right now is/was our own overblown expectations prior to the season (some of the players, it seems, read all that too and thought it would be a 4-loss cakewalk).

    Welcome to reality. COLLEGE BASKETBALL IS A GUARDS’ GAME!! You can have all of the great frontcourt players you want, but you are not going to be a great college team unless you have great guards. Just look at Kansas State!! Michael Beasley is as good as it gets, but K-State’s guards don’t play anywhere close to his level and he and the overall team will suffer plenty of inconsistency and unbelieveable defeats as a result.

    Degand is improving, but he is playing in only his first handful of college games and is no better than an ok point guard right now, and, SORRY, you aren’t going to be a great college team and consistent winner in college basketball until you have a better than average point guard with experience leading your team!! With less guys to work into the rotation than Mich State (just JJ vs a whole host of guys for them), if WE had Drew Neitzel running the show, WE would be the top 10 team.

    On the other side of the backcourt, as has been wisely pointed out, you do have a guy, Courtney Fells, who—when he shows up—makes us a very dangerous team. But, he only shows up half the time.

    How anyone expects this team to be great or a consistent winner with, so far, an average at best point guard and a shooting guard who only shows up half the time despite enormous potential, I will never know. Until you have more than a 1-.5 backcourt going against the standard 2 person backcourt, it won’t matter how great the front court or freshman center is on his own. We will win some games like Nova, but we will also lay plenty of eggs when shooting guard is not on…Unfortunately, we don’t have anyone else who comes close to being able to “get hot” and free up our strength in the frontcourt.

    To close this out with the normal Herb rotation, Herb was never a real contender and was always a disappointer because he never brought in a great point guard or great “get hot” and “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard. Valvano was great because he started with a McD backcourt with a great point guard, Lowe, and a “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard in Whittenberg. Valvano finished with a a great point guard, Corch, and a “shoot you down dagger” shooting guard in Monroe. In between, Valvano had longtime pro guards like Spud, Nate, and Vinnie. Until Lowe gets that type of talent on the floor—IN THE BACKCOURT—we will see more of the Herb disappointment in our lives than the excitement we knew under Jimmy V. It is that simple.

  14. beowolf 12/05/2007 at 5:42 PM #

    we havn’t seen this team work TOGETHER at a high level yet.

    Not this year, no, which appears to be one reason for this thread.

  15. packgrad93 12/05/2007 at 5:43 PM #

    Guards brought in by Herb:

    Miller (top50)
    Harrington (top20)
    M. Williams (top40)
    Wilkins(top10)
    Crawford(top60)
    Scooter(top25)
    Hodge(top10)
    Atsur
    Bethel
    Fells(top30)

    Good talent, but not NBA calibre talent, which is needed to win championships.

  16. packgrad93 12/05/2007 at 5:45 PM #

    “Not this year, no”

    can’t compare to last year since the team is very different. Still working on how to play with JJ.

  17. Trip 12/05/2007 at 6:10 PM #

    Looks like Lowe knows our guard situation.

    (Scout.com)
    2008 recruits
    CJ Williams – 6’4/200 F/G – 3 star (Verbal)
    Julius Mays – 6’2/170 SG – 3 star (Verbal)

    2009 recruits
    John Wall – 6-3/170 PG – 5 star (Medium interest)
    Lorenzo Brown – 6’5-175 SG – 5 star (High interest)

    2010 recruits
    Reggie Bullock – SG 6’5 185 – 5 star (Medium interest)
    Tyler Thorton – 6’1/170 PG – 4 star (Medium interest)

    Overall in 08/09 we’re looking at more guards than fowards/centers, especially the higher rated ones.

  18. Trip 12/05/2007 at 6:12 PM #

    Also, to add to above, if one of our PG’s doesn’t show up this year, we’re still with the same ones next year unless Mays is a combo guard (Not sure). So, here’s hoping they all improve steadily.

  19. Girlfriend in a Coma 12/05/2007 at 6:17 PM #

    Allow me to digress right off the bat on “ShootingGuard’s” last point and ask someone to explain to me how in the world, if backcourts are so important, we never even made an ACC final with the long-deified backcourt combination of Corch and Monroe (coached for 3 years by also-deified Coach V). I will point out that they had a very solid supporting cast playing with them. Players such as Brown and Gugliotta, and, for one year, Shack. Along with solid ACC roll players like Howard and Lester. I’m sure I’m leaving other good players out. That all-world-guard-combo-led-team only had one decent post-season showing out of 7 tournaments, which was their sophmore year when we made the sweet 16 and got screwed against G’town. Other than that those teams with fantastic backcourts acheived NOTHING in the NCAAs. Aside from never even making an ACC final, allow me to recount the NCAA failures. Freshman year — loss to Murray State in round 1. Junior year — NCAA probation. Senior year — blowout loss in round of 32 to OSU. So, out of 7 tournaments they played, I would say only one of the 7 yeilded an acceptable result. How is this possible if guards are the key to everything in basketball and they were so good?

    Now, on to the current team. I find it amazing that people point to Degand as some sort of reason we aren’t as good as some thought we would be. Degand is one of the two players (Hickson being the other), who has actually played pretty well pretty consistently. It is our absurdly underachieving frontcourt that has screwed the pooch. I don’t even see how that is debatable.

  20. beowolf 12/05/2007 at 6:34 PM #

    Cedar, are you straining to be argumentative? We certainly can compare players’ performances from year to year. It’s fair to make allowances for different circumstances, but let’s not act as if Costner and McCauley should go from all-ACC tournament selections to bit players just because there’s a second McD All-American in the frontcourt.

    Heck, I was pointing to their emergence late last season as a reason not to despair six games into this season.

  21. Big Worm 12/05/2007 at 6:45 PM #

    “Guards brought in by Herb:

    Miller (top50)
    Harrington (top20)
    M. Williams (top40)
    Wilkins(top10)
    Crawford(top60)
    Scooter(top25)
    Hodge(top10)
    Atsur
    Bethel
    Fells(top30)

    Good talent, but not NBA calibre talent, which is needed to win championships.”

    Not a potent ball distributor or consistently deadeye shooter among them (other than Arch, who God love him was a defensively disadvantaged midget). And the two highest-rated (Wilkins and Hodge) weren’t really guards – they were small forwards that we tried to run the offense through. Neither could shoot worth a damn, and although Hodge could get to the rack with the best of them, neither were drive-and-kick players, either.

    We very clearly need to continue to improve the talent level on team in the backcourt if we want to become nationally relevant again.

  22. JimValvano 12/05/2007 at 6:57 PM #

    just a note but i believe it was said that you need a point guard to be successful…not that having a point guard will make you successful.

  23. 79statefan 12/05/2007 at 7:20 PM #

    I posted this earlier and some asked my calculation. I think the players must produce to play. Like it or not the player producing is Hickson. Over the last 3 games my rankings are:

    Rating = Points per minute +(2*(Assists per minute + Rebounds per minute + Steals per minute)+ Blocks per minute – Turnovers per minute

    Name Rating Minutes Played
    Hickson 0.82 83.00
    Grant 0.66 82.00
    Fells 0.54 94.00
    Degand 0.53 99.00
    McCauley 0.51 80.00
    Horner 0.43 64.00
    Costner 0.43 70.00
    Gonzalez 0.02 18.00

  24. 79statefan 12/05/2007 at 7:29 PM #

    Correction Turnovers are weighted *-2. The assumption is that an assist, rebound, steal or turnover makes it possible to score or deny 2 points. I didn’t weigh blocks as high because sometimes it gets you out of rebounding position.

  25. MadWolf92 12/05/2007 at 7:40 PM #

    Here’s a bit I got from SectionSix

    http://sectionsix.blogspot.com/2007/12/expanded-individual-numbers.html
    http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=61

    “… So I tend to focus on the guys that have a high usage and a high turnover rate. These are the players that tend to be overrated. The most obvious player to pick on at this early stage is NC State’s Brandon Costner. Costner was one of the ten best freshmen in the nation last season. But he’s off to a miserable start this season with a 25.0 percent turnover rate (up from 20.4 percent last season) while racking up a 25.4 percent usage. Additionally, though, he’s shooting just 40.6 percent (eFG), so his turnover issues are not his most glaring problem so far. Fortunately for State, freshman J.J. Hickson has been as good as advertised (if a little turnover-prone himself), and has picked up some of the slack resulting from Costner’s slump.”

Leave a Reply