What Went Wrong?

I may have to update my list of Data Analysis Mistakes to include the nuances of summer football speculation. Let’s review some “notable predictions” from the last few off-seasons:

– The 2003 defense was going to be just fine, even though 6 or 7 defensive linemen were graduating. The top-10 recruiting class was going to make up for the lack of experience with talent.

– The 2004 offense was going to be just fine after Rivers left because all State needed was someone to “manage” the offense. There was enough talent on offense that State didn’t need the QB to win the game.

– The 2005 offense was going to be just fine because Jay Davis had over 2000 yards passing in 2004 and was going to be much improved.

– The 2006 offense was going to be just fine because State had a 6-1 record after Marcus Stone became the starting QB.

I’m not going to waste the time/space to point out just how horribly (and predictably) wrong each one of these “conclusions” was. I just wanted to remind everyone of the recent past as a prelude to dissecting this year’s preferred “analysis”. Namely, State is going to do much better this year because TOB is going to correct the horrible problem with penalties that plagued Amato’s undisciplined players.

There is a slight twist to this off-season’s mindless chatter…the penalty/discipline problem is being parroted by media types from all over the southeast and not just repeated endlessly on the message boards. I attribute the media attention to two different types of sports writers:

– Those writers that don’t want to give up their running battle with Amato. They now have an opportunity to get in some shots while Amato is gone and won’t be able to get any jabs back at them. (Thanks to streaming media, we’ve gotten to hear some of Amato’s shots, even if they didn’t end up in print.)

– Those writers that are either too stupid or too lazy to do their own work. These writers simply recycle anything catchy that they read somewhere else.

Let’s look this “Penalty/Discipline Problem” from several different angles.

1) I work with a guy that used to be a sports writer at a small paper in Florida and covered Florida State. During Amato’s first tenure at FSU, he was known as the disciplinarian. The players didn’t mind being called into Bowden’s or Andrew’s office…but they wanted no part of Amato.

Now I’ve read and heard similar versions of this story in other places. But since this story comes from someone I know, I give it a lot more credence even if it doesn’t mean anything special to you.

I guess that Amato just turned into a mindless softie once he became the head coach.

2) Thanks to RAWFS for finding this quote from TOB on spring practice:

I don’t want to comment on anything in the past. But I haven’t seen any real discipline issues since we’ve been here and on the field. I’m happy with these kids. They’re attentive. They’re listening. They want to do the right things and they’re working hard to do the right things.

I think that if “discipline” were a real problem, it would take longer than just spring practice to get it worked out.

3) Here’s what Terry Bowden had to say recently about penalties and the “problems” that they create:

How many times have you heard the saying that penalties will get you beat? …Of the top 10 teams in college football last season in least yards penalized, six of them had losing records…Incidentally, the national champion Florida Gators finished the season ranked 109th out of 119 schools in least yards penalized and only one team in the final top 10 made it into the top 35 least-penalized teams.

It looks like quite a few people need to work on their cause/effect relationships.

4) Lastly thanks to pointer from legacyman, here is how State and BC compared on penalties last year:

NC State
– 7 penalties per game
– 58 penalty yards per game

Boston College
– 6 penalties per game
– 44 penalty yards per game

No one is saying that penalties are not A problem, but can I have a show of hands of those people that really believe that State can make a dramatic improvement in the W/L record just by “improving” the penalty situation to match BC? (All those with hands raised, I have a unique business opportunity that I would like to talk to you about…)

So what was the real problem? It should come as no shock to any of our regular readers that I have prepared a table to show what really needs to be corrected:

NC State’s National Rank

 

2004

2005

2006

Rushing
Offense

68

83

79

Passing
Offense

71

92

81

Total
Offense

78

103

97

Scoring
Offense

73

95

101

For the last three years, State has ranked in the bottom third of Division I in almost every offensive category. I don’t understand how any State fan that has watched the last three seasons can reach anything other than the most obvious conclusion…a woefully unproductive offense directly led to three mostly forgettable seasons.

The following list summarizes the most commonly blamed reasons for the offensive woes:

– The consistently worst QB play in Raleigh since the mid-80’s (ie before Erik Kramer).

– An offensive line that couldn’t provide protection for the QB or running room for the RBs.

– Offensive coordinators that weren’t qualified to handle play-calling duties for a Pee-Wee league. One OC had the imagination of a pumpkin and the other dreamed up hopelessly complex schemes that produced even worse results than the Pumpkin.

– Position coaches that couldn’t teach and develop the players they had. Or sometimes, the recruiting is blamed for not getting better players.

So what was the chief reason for the offensive woes?
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WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!

What are you going to do even if you could blame only one area or person? I really don’t understand the need to search for a witch to burn. From where I sit, there are plenty of reasons to place the blame on several different areas.

The bottom line is that the offense has stunk and needs major improvement before State fans can expect to see substantial improvement in the W/L column. Unfortunately, it’s not immediately obvious to me that just changing coaches will be enough to fix these problems by this fall.

There are certainly legitmate questions/concerns about several different areas of the team, but droning endlessly about penalties/discipline is essentially the same thing as arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

'07 Football General NCS Football

83 Responses to What Went Wrong?

  1. Mr O 04/17/2007 at 10:51 AM #

    Nobody can ever take Wake’s ACC title away from them, but IMO Wake was lucky as hell to win the ACC crown. Admittedly they put themselves in position to take advantage of a weak ACC, but the ACC was as weak as it has been in a long time with not single top 10 team in the conference. Wake could have lost to UNC, Duke and NC State just as easily as they beat FSU. In fact, they should have lost two of those three games.

    They were one of the lowest rated teams offensive and defensive teams in the conference statistically.

    The ACC may never see a team win a championship like Wake did last year again.

  2. TNCSU 04/17/2007 at 10:53 AM #

    ^^Okay, now I see I didn’t read the last line of his post!! I’m a little slow today.

  3. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 10:55 AM #

    oops, I get so irritated by the general “cult of victimhood” that I missed McPete’s sarcasm. My bad.

    I don’t believe in “fluke” championships. You have to do too much right in order to get into that position. And as a fan of a program that’s been almost 30 years without a title in football, I won’t devalue Wake’s accomplishment in the slightest. I would be dancing in the streets to be so “lucky.”

    What’s the old saying about “luck” being where opportunity meets preparation? Now THAT does describe Wake’s 2006 squad perfectly.

  4. Pack84 04/17/2007 at 10:55 AM #

    “VaTech – one thing to remember, your ability to overcome the penalties is pretty important. Our offense couldn’t overcome a 5 yard penalty much less a 10 yard holding.”

    I couldn’t agree more. THIS is the problem we’ve had with penalties the last few years. As the original entry pointed out we’ve simply had a woeful offense the last 3 years. A 10 yard holding penalty was almost guaranteed to end a drive.

    In the “PR years” we could overcome a false start here or a hold there. I don’t have the data to back this up one way or the other, but my gut tells me that if you go back and compare the number of penalties and penalty yardage in the “PR years” vs. the years since he left the differences between the two would be minimal. The difference was we had an offense able to overcome the penalties before, and we just haven’t had that the last few years.

  5. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 11:06 AM #

    I agree with Pack84 in that “The difference was we had an offense able to overcome the penalties before, and we just haven’t had that the last few years.”

    The PR Years:
    2003:
    T.A. McLendon (245car, 1,101yds, 4.5ypc, 18td)
    Jerricho Cotchery (67rec, 1,192yds, 17.8ypr, 7td)
    2004:
    T.A. McLendon (130car, 608yds, 4.7ypc, 9td)
    Jerricho Cotchery (86rec, 1,369yds, 15.9ypr, 10td)
    Tramain Hall (69rec, 799yds, 11.6ypr, 7td)

    Post PR leading receiver:
    ’04 382 yds
    ’05 537 yds
    ’06 307 yds

  6. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 11:09 AM #

    With Rivers, 2nd and 20 was exciting, we were hopeful, optimistic, awaiting that big play, that big catch, the possibility of a 60-yd TD reception. I think the NFL is showing that Jericho is a great receiver. Just to point out that he didn’t put up great number at State solely b/c Rivers was QB, it was a great tandem. A top level WR negates many penalties.

  7. 83 Pack Grad 04/17/2007 at 11:29 AM #

    “Someone said that they didn’t think that anything would get worse under the new regime. Hopefully you are correct. However, I am taking a wait-and-see approach about the defense. I am not convinced that the defenses in the future will be as good as the ones we’ve had over the last several years (with the notable exception of the ‘03 season). ”

    VAWolf82, I agree with this to an extent. The one thing the ’03 defense had that has been sorely lacking in our defenses since then was a true “big play” ability. I remember giving up gobs of yards to UConn and winning the game on two stellar defense TD’s by Freddie A-L. Remember Greg Golden’s INT return for a touchdown against Texas Tech that year, a 70-yarder IIRC. So the ’03 defense could recover from all the yardage they gave up because they had that big-play mentality (and they had an offense that could put points on he board!) They could yield yards and even points because they knew that PR and Jerrico would bail them out, or they would bail themselves out with a big turnover. Watching the game Saturday, it looks to me like we have a lot of “big play” potential on this team. And that mentality carries over to goal line defense. RichJ mentioned our poor red zone defense. I think that goes hand-in-hand with the lack of that “big play” mentality. Hopefully, we will see a return to that and we will be able to put more than 24 points on the board. I would rather win a high scoring shootout like the ’03 Tangerine Bowl that hold a team to 179 yards in total offense only to lose 17-10.

  8. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 11:32 AM #

    Did NC State have only 1 1K rusher for 7 years under Amato? (Did RayRob gain 1k any of Amato’s 1st 2 years?)

  9. VaWolf82 04/17/2007 at 11:35 AM #

    -All 3 showed promise at one point,

    I’m sorry, but the BC game last year was the only “promise” that I saw from any of the QB’s over the last three years.

    Different topic….different post:

    I don’t have the data to back this up one way or the other, but my gut tells me that if you go back and compare the number of penalties and penalty yardage in the “PR years” vs. the years since he left the differences between the two would be minimal.

    In one of my comments here, I listed the average penalities and penalty yards for the four PR years. They were alll higher than last year’s numbers (listed in the body of the original article).

  10. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 04/17/2007 at 11:46 AM #

    What a waste of 4 minutes of reading. It isn’t the number of penalties that causes problems. It is the timing of said penalties and turnovers. It is the celebration bone head penalty with a minute to play in the Akron game just after taking the lead that shows a lack of mental preparation. Teams will get penalties and give up turnovers no matter how good or bad they are but it is when a team makes those mistakes that matter.

  11. Mr O 04/17/2007 at 11:46 AM #

    BJD: I am not devaluing their title. I hope we can win one the same way at some point.

    However, they were still as lucky as any team I can remember in so many regards to last season. Not only did they win a ton of close games that they did not dominate, but they just so happened to do so in a year where the traditional powers were weakened so much that a strong Wake team could actually win the ACC.

    All the stars and moons had to align for Wake to win that title.

  12. bTHEredterror 04/17/2007 at 11:47 AM #

    “You have to give some credit to the fact that defenses have dominated the acc in recent years also. That only compounded our other problems with the fact that we replaced playing duke with miami, bc, or vt in the past years.”

    Speaking of Duke, do we ever get to play them again? It feels like a millenium since we played them last, I almost forgpt they had a football team.

  13. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 12:25 PM #

    Yeah, we didn’t play Duke. Boo-hoo. We also got to play an almost as bad UNC program as our designated cross-division rival EVERY YEAR, and missed both VT and Miami last season.

    Most years, we skipped out playing 1 bad team, 1 decent one, and 1 very good one. Seems pretty balanced to me.

    Given how we performed against some really putrid UNC teams, maybe it’s Duke that should be complaining about not getting to play US.

  14. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 12:33 PM #

    BJD – You also have to remember that even in playing Duke – and replacing them w/ a team we lost to – that we’d still be finishing .500 at best in conference. We didn’t hire Chuck to win 50% of his ACC games – although, now I think we’d all be happy w/ a 4-4 year.

  15. CaptainCraptacular 04/17/2007 at 12:35 PM #

    I personally am very glad we did not play Duke last year. I’d wager that we would have lost.

  16. waxhaw 04/17/2007 at 12:48 PM #

    A ball control, defensive minded team HAS to be concerned about penalties.

    A West Coast, high scoring team can take more chances on offense and defense.

  17. Mr O 04/17/2007 at 12:58 PM #

    As far as hope for this season, I do think the strengths of TOB and the new assistants are great matches for improving on our weaknesses as a program the last seven years.

    As BJD95 mentions, Amato had trouble managing/maintaining a quality staff. TOB has been one of the best in the country(or at least in the Big East and ACC) in this regard. His staff consistency is very similar to Wake and Va Tech. Where did those programs finish last year(with BC right behind them)?

    Offensively, BC has been very solid to sometimes very good with TOB. I think they led the ACC last year(don’t know the stats for previous years in Big East). Traditionally, they usually get pretty good play from every position and especially the offensive line which is definitely a weakness for us. So hopefully, we will score more points and move the ball with some consistency. I paid close attention to the George Welsh era and I would love to see consistent, diverse offenses like TOB produced back then using both athletic QBs and pro-style QBs.

    About the only negative with TOB was the “can’t win the big one” talk. I don’t know that I ever agree that there are coaches out there who have the propensity to always win or always lose the “big ones”. More often than not, coaches don’t make the “big ones” often enough to prove themselves one way or the other in these situations. I think this type of talk is more for everyday fans and members of the media who often oversimplify these situations. Supposedly Mack Brown could never win the “big one”, but somehow or another he has won as many games as any other coach in the country the last decade.

    Overall, TOB appears to be a great fit for NC State. Hopefully it works out.

  18. beowolf 04/17/2007 at 1:12 PM #

    Mr. O — thanks for the clarification. I took umbrage at your original post because I was not complaining about discipline as a way to bash Amato; I was sympathetic to Amato up to the Akron postgame, and I was still well-wishing a few losses after BC & FSU.

    But at the same time, I had complained frequently at the decay of discipline since PR’s junior year, and I blamed a lot of it on Amato’s handling of TA McClendon. I had thought he’d worked a lot of it out midway through 2005, but even then I was worrying about the management issue as it pertains to staff turnover and loyalty and those effects on discipline.

    I’m not trying to leave out the offense problems or any of that. I just was not writing a book about all the problems I saw in Amato’s Wolfpack last year when I was writing a short, optimistic take on the upcoming season as a reply to someone’s post. I thought for reasons listed above that “discipline” provided a working umbrella for many of those problems.

  19. McPete 04/17/2007 at 1:27 PM #

    Going back to penalties, i think we should separate penalties on the offense vs. penalties on the defense. i think a strong offense can overcome penalties against the D. A strong but undiscipled D can overcome it’s own mistakes (if the D creates alot of turnovers but gets too many late hit penalties). A mediocre, turnover happy offense and a mediocre defense that can’t create turnovers won’t be able to overcome penalties. I do think there is a correlation between NC State’s losing record last year and its penalty problem. and by the way, i think when analyzing stats from last year, we should be looking at league states and not D1A stats, since you only need to outperform the top teams in the league to win games.

  20. VaWolf82 04/17/2007 at 1:50 PM #

    we should be looking at league states and not D1A stats, since you only need to outperform the top teams in the league to win games.

    Since State won only two conference games last year (and 8 over the last three), there is no need to look at conference standings to tell that State was one of the worst teams in the conference. The national standings illustrate just how pitiful State’s offense has been over the last three years.

  21. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 1:51 PM #

    “Given how we performed against some really putrid UNC teams, maybe it’s Duke that should be complaining about not getting to play US.”
    That is sadly funny BJD.

  22. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 2:12 PM #

    “Since State won only two conference games last year (and 8 over the last three), there is no need to look at conference standings to tell that State was one of the worst teams in the conference. The national standings illustrate just how pitiful State’s offense has been over the last three years.”

    Ah yes – but what’s worse – our TO ratio or our offensive #s?

    I would only clarify that our problem was a pisspour offense AND TO ratio. Our TO’s made it really easy for teams to score against us. They represent a double whammy. Rarely is a TO truly point nuetral. If it’s in your own territory, it usually leads to points for your opposition. If it’s in your opponents territory – you are usually losing points. To further illustrate this point, look at what I consider the key game of our season – Wake Forest…Late in the second half, Andre Brown fumbles – this leads to a safety – giving Wake points (what was the point differential in this game??) – then moments, later, Wake hooks up on the long TD pass…This was a 9 point swing. Very similar to the FSU game that I believe turned around the entire direction of the program – a 7 point swing….

    You can be mediocre offensively, but if you turn the ball over, you’ll do badly. I think that was our biggest problem. Our offense was bad – but we would have been fine and Amato would still have a job if we didn’t give it away and the worst possible moments. (It’s possible that we would have been fine if we were decent offensively, but still turned it over.)

  23. Mike 04/17/2007 at 2:12 PM #

    Mr O, I agree in talking about TOB’s inability to win the big games……….want to make a golf analogy here. If I leave the putt short, it has no chance of going in. I might run it 6 feet past, but it will have a chance to go in (OK, so I still leave putts short).

    Let’s get to the big games and take our chances. Granted, CTC was good in big games (except UNX) and struggled in the lesser games. Hopefully TOB can get us to big games to have the chance to lose (not saying I want to lose, but cant win them if you dont get there).

  24. beowolf 04/17/2007 at 2:17 PM #

    In Amato’s last three years we had several games in which the Defense had pitched a shutout but turnovers by the offense or special teams led directly or indirectly to points. We had an offense that was almost as effective at scoring points for the other team as it was for putting points under the name NC STATE.

  25. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 2:32 PM #

    Yep – Mr O – Regarding Amato – another thing to keep in mind – we’d beaten the 2 of the last 3 conference champs on the road. Clearly, we weren’t missing talent.

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