VPI Tragedy Entry (6:23pm Update)

6:23pm (the reference frame blog) – Supposed student account with SPECULATION of the gunman’s identity.

6:15 pm (AP) — List of deadliest campus shootings.

5:30pm (SFN) — Press conference just ended in Blacksburg. There was a student reporter from “15 minutes down the road” that you could identify as an amateur a mile way. The kid should not be allowed back to the 7:30pm briefing; he was horrible and embarassed himself beyond reproach.

5:20pm (BBC) — Eyewitness emails.

5:20 pm (Michelle Malkin) — You can also see an eyewitness email here. It is pretty amazing. The author calls the response from authorities “exemplary”.

5:15pm (ABC) — ABC News is running a fascinatingly perverted poll asking if the shooting is grounds for more gun control? I don’t understand this at all. Guns are already banned at Virginia Tech. They are ‘illegal’ in Norris Hall (where the murders occured). How is the solution to defend yourself against a deranged murderer who doesn’t care about ANY laws to tighten restrictions to keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens? (For the record, I have never owned a gun.)

^ This was pretty easy to call. Many pundits were predicting it almost immediately. The following comments were interesting.

As the initial shock wears off you can bet that the anti-Second Amendment people wall be coming out of the woodwork. By the time the evening network newscasts hit we will have no shortage of spokesmen for various anti-gun groups stepping forth to issue their tired call for an end to the private ownership of handguns.

…earlier this year the Virginia General Assembly failed to act on House Bill 1572. This bill would have allowed college students and employees to carry handguns on campus — with appropriate permits, of course. It died in subcommittee. Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, the site of today’s carnage, said “I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.”

How’s today for safety?

If it had been legal for students, employees or faculty members with permits to carry guns on the campus, is it at all possible that there might be some students alive today who didn’t make it through the carnage? Do you think the actions of the Virginia General Assembly stopped the gunman from getting his guns and carrying them to the campus?

This is undoubtedly the worst school shooting, high school, college or otherwise, in the history of our country. There are some facts, however, about some of these school shootings of which you probably are not aware. Do you know, for instance, that at least three shootings in high schools were stopped by civilians with guns? Civilians, not law enforcement. In one case a civilian was traveling past a school when he saw children running from the building. One told him that there was a student inside shooting people. The civilian pulled his gun, ran in side, and confronted the student. The student put down the gun and surrendered. In another case a high school vice-principal heard that there was a student in the hallways with a gun. He sprinted a half-mile to his car. He had a gun in his car so he had to park off campus. He then sprinted back with the gun to confront the student. Lives saved.

The point here is that you are never ever going to get the guns out of the hands of those who want to use them for carnage. Never. Gun control programs will only succeed in getting the guns out of the hands of people who want them and need them for self-defense. Never, in the history of America’s gun control movement, has anyone set forth a viable program to get the guns out of the hands of those who would use them to commit crimes. Similarly, the gun control movement will never give any fair coverage at all to the people who use guns to save their own lives, or the lives of others.

Perhaps it is prudent to recall some history related to today’s situation.

Late Afternoon (ABC) — 33 people confirmed dead. ABC News has some of “the first pictures” from the tragedy available here.

1:20 pm (ABC) — At 1:20pm ABCNews reported at least 32 fatalities with the number expected to rise.

Police at Virginia Tech say that the shootings happened at a dormitory and a classroom on opposite sides of the university campus in Blacksburg, Va.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said that one person was killed in the first shooting, just after 7 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a large dormitory. Flinchum said that at least 20 more people were killed in a later shooting at Norris Hall, an academic building.

(CNN) — The Virginia Tech police chief said at least 20 people were killed in twin shootings on the Blacksburg campus Monday morning. “Some victims were shot in a classroom,” Chief Wendell Flinchum said, adding that the gunman was dead.

(SFN) — Our prayers are with any and everyone with any connection to Blacksburg and VPI.

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111 Responses to VPI Tragedy Entry (6:23pm Update)

  1. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 8:22 AM #

    bTHEred, maybe we don’t see exactly eye to eye, but that’s why America is still the best nation to ever exist. You and I can disagree, yet still could sit down and have a beer, shake hands at the end, not needing to impose our view on the other. Or as in Russia last week, need fear the govt silence us. At the end of the day we are all Americans, and all mourn the loss of innocent lives yesterday.

  2. noah 04/17/2007 at 8:28 AM #

    “But, those same do gooder parents think it’s cool and will let their very young children watch movies that they definitely shouldn’t be watching, let them hold the simulated hand gun on realistic and violent video games ALL DAY LONG, where people get blown to pieces over and over again, and all in the name of fun.”

    Guns don’t kill people, movies do!

    I say this as someone who does not own a gun, who is fine with restrictions on gun ownership and gun sales and who thinks the NRA are a bunch of nuts……this was the act of a mad man. Don’t try and find “reason” or cause and effect. The guy was insane.

    Wolftown — glad your kid was all right. I hope he and his friends are able to move forward.

  3. WolftownVA81 04/17/2007 at 8:32 AM #

    Thanks noah.

  4. burnbarn 04/17/2007 at 9:18 AM #

    This is a sad day for Vt.

    Why is it we see these things happen in the spring? This week is the Waco and Columbine anniversaries.

    Also, Don’t forget about the attack last year in Hillsborough of a gunman at the high school. His gun jammed and he was not able to shoot anyone before he was subdued.

    This can happen anywhere at any time and will happen again.

  5. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 04/17/2007 at 9:29 AM #

    The people that cried that the Patriot Act was taking away what some called ‘rights’ after 9/11 are the same people lining up to try and ban gun ownership which is a with no doubt a constitutional right. Sick, sick people to use this kind of event for political purposes but I expect nothing less from that crowd.

    With the names of the students and faculty being released today the event becomes that much more heartbreaking and my thoughts are with the thousands of people directly touched by this awful event.

  6. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 9:30 AM #

    Yeah, there are 301,631,335 people in the US (not counting illegals). I mean, given the size of our population, there is going to be someone not right in the head always.

  7. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 9:49 AM #

    I think I’ve been convinced over the years that most gun restrictions don’t do any good. I’ve never fired a gun, so this doesn’t affect me directly – but I feel that you should have compelling evidence of a directly related societal good before you abridge anyone’s freedom (whether that be to own guns, use drugs, etc.). However, I’m similarly convinced that the world would not necessarily be a safer place if everybody was walking around locked and loaded. My guess would be that the occasional thwarting/mitigating of EXTREMELY RARE situations like yesterday would at least be cancelled out by additional accidental shootings.

    A determined, calculating madman is pretty much impossible to prevent from doing serious harm before being arrested or killed. If they can’t get a gun (and they always can, even if you make it harder – similar to drugs that way), they’ll make a bomb. Or set a building on fire. Or crash their car into a bus. You can’t make society completely immune from these kind of things, even if you turn this country into a police state or the gun-toting Wild West (either of which the vast majority of us don’t want). People tend to blow high profile (but still very sad) events out of proportion, when the overall RISK of being impacted is really quite small, compared to other risks we unthinkingly assume each and every day.

    It’s a human tragedy. PERIOD. Sympathy for the victims, their families, and people close to the university should be first and foremost in everyone’s minds and hearts. Trying to score political points or tie it to something ideologically wrong with our society is largely pointless – whether it be from the right or the left.

  8. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 9:52 AM #
  9. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 9:54 AM #

    If you would like an image to show Wolfpack Nation’s support of VT, go to the following link: link

  10. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 10:04 AM #

    “You can’t make society completely immune from these kind of things, even if you turn this country into a police state or the gun-toting Wild West (either of which the vast majority of us don’t want).”

    I was trying to let it go, but have to respond:
    From 1870 to 1885, the era of the Wild West when “everybody wore a gun,” arrest rates per 100 residents were much lower in the West than in eastern cities. Moreover, the Western frontier was a far more civilized, more peaceful, and safer place than American society is today. Contrary to the impression left by movies and Western novels, crime and homicides were rare. For example:
    • In 1880, wide-open towns like Virginia City, Nev., Leadville, Colo., and Dallas had no homicides.
    • By comparison, Cincinnati had 17 homicides that year.
    • From 1870 to 1885, the five Kansas railheads of Abilene, Caldwell, Dodge City, Ellsworth and Wichita had a total of 45 homicides, or an average of three per year – a lower homicide rate than New York City, Baltimore and Boston.
    • Sixteen of the 45 homicides were committed by duly authorized peace officers, and only two towns, Ellsworth in 1873 and Dodge City in 1876, ever had as many as five killings in any one year.

    The Wild West is a notion given to us by movies, the FACTS indicate that the so called “Wild West” was one of the safest places to live this country has ever known.

  11. WolftownVA81 04/17/2007 at 10:16 AM #

    branjawn,

    Thanks for your link above. Very appropriate. That was a good post to end on.

  12. Texpack 04/17/2007 at 11:33 AM #

    100% of all homicides are carried out by PEOPLE.

    If any of you ever go to Austin, take a moment to survey the area around the Memorial Tower. Charles Whittman shot people who were several blocks away. I frankly couldn’t imagine the terror of that afternoon in 1966 or the terror of the students yesterday holding the door shut as the man who had just murdered their professor and several of their classmates tried to re-enter.

  13. bTHEredterror 04/17/2007 at 11:38 AM #

    Thanks Branjawn, I agree totally that America is the best nation to ever exist. And getting better. I firmly believe that even though there are startling events in our times that lend pause.

    Consider the beer drunk and the hand shook.

  14. travelwolf 04/17/2007 at 11:52 AM #

    i’m all for freedom… but the problem with guns is that it amplifies one’s ‘power’. all of a sudden, one person has the power to kill 33 people in a few hours (if not minutes). it would be pretty hard for that person to do this with just a knife. why not sell bombs at the local gun shop? it’s fun to see bombs explode? why don’t i have freedom to do that?

    amplifiers can be used for good or bad – if a mother has a gun, she can protect herself from someone that could overpower her. so, if everyone has a gun, then the world would theoretically be safer. because everyone would have the same amplification. or, if guns were totally outlawed, everyone would also have the same amplification. are there any countries where guns are totally outlawed? what do those statistics look like? gun control only works when it’s enforcible. VT saying that it’s illegal to carry handguns on campus is NOT enforcible – unless they check everyone who enters campus (like high schools do).

    just some thoughts…

  15. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 12:21 PM #

    Sad/heroic story coming out:
    “Liviu Librescu a 75-year-old Israeli professor is one of the people who died in Monday’s Virginia Tech shooting. The professor saved several students before got shot, witnesses said, quoted by DPA news agency.
    Librescu was teaching his class in Norris Hall when the killer entered the building randomly unloading his gun in class rooms. The Mechanics and Aeronautics professor stayed behind to stop the shooter from opening the door. When the attacker finally got into the classroom, threw himself in front of the gunman, a student told Israel’s Army Radio.
    ‘He himself was killed but thanks to him his students stayed alive’, the student who survived the massacre said.
    Librescu, a Holocaust survivor, was born in Romania, he has Israeli nationality but had lived in the US with his wife for the past two decades while both his sons live in Israel.”

  16. noah 04/17/2007 at 12:30 PM #

    “The people that cried that the Patriot Act was taking away what some called ‘rights’ after 9/11 are the same people lining up to try and ban gun ownership which is a with no doubt a constitutional right. Sick, sick people to use this kind of event for political purposes but I expect nothing less from that crowd.”

    One hour after the news broke about the event, there was a national press release issued by some gun owners group saying we needed to relax the laws regarding gun possession so future targets of mass murders can defend themselves.

    And of course, the president of the US…even before expressing horror or sorrow for the victims…sought to assure the NRA that he wouldn’t be urging more gun control.

    Somehow, I think you overlooked one particular side.

  17. WolftownVA81 04/17/2007 at 12:50 PM #

    It’s unfortunate that these types of events are used by all sides to further their particular argument. Politicians and lobbyist will have a field day with the added media attention. I have very strong feelings on the gun control issue but refuse to be sucked into this argument at this point in time. The focus needs to remain on the victims of this tragedy.

  18. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 12:56 PM #

    “And of course, the president of the US…even before expressing horror or sorrow for the victims…sought to assure the NRA that he wouldn’t be urging more gun control.”
    Noah, care to provide any cited sources for you claim??

    “President Bush, ordering the nation’s flags flown at half-staff in honor of the 32 people slain by a student gunman at Virginia Tech, will speak of a day of mourning today — saving political debates for later.” link

    “Monday’s deadly rampage at Virginia Tech might have lighted the fuse for another round in the long-running debate over gun control, but this time the response was largely one-sided. Gun-control advocates pointed to the shootings as dramatic evidence of the need for tougher laws, while supporters of gun rights generally kept their heads down.”

    “In brief remarks from the White House, President Bush expressed the nation’s grief over the carnage on the Blacksburg, Va., campus. “Schools should be places of sanctuary and learning,” he said. “When that sanctuary is violated, the impact is felt in every American classroom and every American community.”

    “Bush, a longtime champion of the right to bear arms, said nothing about the gun-control debate.” link

    “Gun control advocates wasted little time kick-starting that age-old debate, quickly turning from solemn observance of grief to a moment of action.
    “It is long overdue for us to take some common-sense actions to prevent tragedies like this from continuing to occur,” said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. ” link

  19. noah 04/17/2007 at 3:22 PM #

    “Noah, care to provide any cited sources for you claim??”

    Uhh….the WH press briefing yesterday????

    First thing out of Dana Perino’s mouth: “As far as policy, the president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed.”

    And then there’s the National Review, John Derbyshire:
    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzllOTU0MDUzY2NhZDE2YmViYmRiNmE5ZjM1OWQxYTU=

    “”Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn’t anyone rush the guy? It’s not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness’ sake — one of them reportedly a .22.”

    Derbyshire actually gets worse the more you read.

    If anyone were to actually be completely honest here, people who don’t like guns and advocate more gun control…..ALWAYS…advocate more gun control. It’s not like on Sunday the folks from the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence were FINE with these weapons (which had been banned under the 1994 crime bill) and on Tuesday decided that they had changed their mind. It’s just no one had a microphone and a camera pointed at them.

    Just like the NRA *always* wants more freedom for gun owners. Everyday. Call them anytime and they’ll tell you why you need an AK-47.

    And I still don’t see what gun rights and the patriot act have to do with one another…

  20. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 04/17/2007 at 3:28 PM #

    “Noah, care to provide any cited sources for you claim??”

    I doubt that will be the case.

    Every major media outlet in the country was crying about gun laws within an hour of the news breaking. I think Lou Dobbs had a very good commentary this morning on CBS saying how these events blow things out of proportion when you consider about 30 people die every week at universities around the country from suicides and alcohol poisoning. I don’t think that even counted driving incidents. Not to mention the 70,000 sexual assaults that take place every year.

    Of course when something that big happens at one place at one time it is big news but the bigger question is how does a parent prepare their child to be safe when sending them off to college from the more routine dangers. The focus on your child being killed by a crazed gunman is a little absurd as the chances of this happening are almost zero.

  21. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 04/17/2007 at 3:30 PM #

    Noah you didn’t point out anything the president said. I pretty sure the spokesperson was responding to a set up question but if not I would agree with you that was a stupid comment. If it was a response to a question about constitutional rights then that isn’t a big deal and nothing to support your claim.

  22. noah 04/17/2007 at 3:39 PM #

    Dana Perino’s job is to be the mouth of the president. The only thing she does is give voice to the position of the White House.

    To be perfectly fair….Dana Perino SUCKS at her job. Tony Snow (who I loathed with every ounce of my being) was very skilled at the job. But Perino is a total amateur who flops around questions like a fish on the deck of a boat.

    I also want to point out my position on guns — I don’t give a damn one way or another. I don’t own guns, I don’t really care what my neighbor does provided the gun isn’t pointed my direction.

    But…which of these questions makes more sense?

    “Politician #1, a bunch of kids were killed today by a gunman. Is this a good opportunity to revisit the nation’s gun laws?”

    OR…

    “Politician #2, no one got shot today, it was a fairly calm Monday. People pretty much obeyed the laws and there weren’t any problems. Is this a good time to revisit the nation’s gun laws?”

    One of those questions makes sense.

  23. noah 04/17/2007 at 3:53 PM #

    “I think Lou Dobbs had a very good commentary this morning on CBS saying how these events blow things out of proportion when you consider about 30 people die every week at universities around the country from suicides and alcohol poisoning.”

    Okay, if 30 people at NC State drank themselves to death THIS Friday night…if you woke up Saturday morning and turned on the news or opened your paper and 30 students had consumed so much alcohol that they had died….do you think that would be a story?

    If 30 different people committed suicide on a single college campus on a single night, you don’t think that would be a huuuuge story?

    Thirty people got killed by ONE guy. It’s the largest mass shooting in US history. How is it being blown out of proportion?

    I ask this as someone who ISNT pushing for tougher gun laws. I think this guy was insane and probably would have killed 30 people with a chainsaw or his car or a bomb had he not had access to a gun. He was a madman intent on hurting as many people as possible.

  24. redfred2 04/17/2007 at 3:55 PM #

    If the folks that high handedly consider and call themselves the most open minded and humane among us, would stop twisting and perverting the laws as they are already written, rightfully and duly punish those who break those same laws with more than just TIME, and do it the first time and every time anyone does, then you’d find that the inanimate pieces of metal that you’re so afraid of now, aren’t at all what poses you such a threat.

  25. noah 04/17/2007 at 4:05 PM #

    And that would have stopped Cho Seung-hui how?

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