Florida State Game Thread (Updated with Post-Game Analysis/Ranting)

Today’s game is crucial for NC State’s post-season hopes. The Pack needs 1 more regular season to qualify for the NIT, and 2 wins would erase any doubt about receiving a bid. On a second front, there are ample ACCT seeding/cellar avoidance ramifications. A loss today pretty much ensures that State will be seeded no higher than 10th (with 12th still a distinct possibility). Wins over FSU and Wake would likely produce a 9 seed. As much as I’d like to set up a Friday date with VT instead of UNC, I think getting a higher seed looks better on paper (in terms of beating pre-season expectations).

Section Six has a good preview here. Short version – without Toney Douglas, the Noles have sucked. If we have our legs, I think we have at least a 50/50 shot to take these guys.

1:38 – I didn’t think we could play shittier than we did against Miami, but I was wrong. So far, this is EASILY the worst we have played on offense AND defense all season. Just pitiful.

Halftime – Coming out of halftime, the only starter on the floor should be Costner. Absolutely nobody else on this team showed up to play today. Send a message prior to the Wake game, that this kind of half-assed play is completely unacceptable. Caveat – Atsur’s play might be due to physical limitations rather than attitude.

2:09 – So far, the 2nd half is even worse. What a load of freaking crap this is. No fight, no effort, no pride to wear the uniform.

2:45 – Is Cliff Ellis mentally “challenged” – seriously? Gavin Grant is the king of garbage time. Would have been nice if he had done something while the outcome was still in doubt. Why are we risking further injury to Costner and Atsur? Complete lunacy.

End of Game – A fittingly humiliating end to a humilating game. Ben McCauley was invisible again, and has likely played his way out of all-ACC consideration over the last 2 games. Fells played as if he were stoned. Atsur was clearly way off, and the coaching staff stubbornly (and stupidly, IMHO) played him all the way, even after the outcome was clearly decided. We need the next game to qualify for the NIT and avoid last place, so it sure as hell better not come back to haunt us. Before the game the TV foofs were talking about FSU wanting the score in the 70s, and NC State wanting it in the 50s. In a way, that’s exactly what happened – Florida State 78, NC State 52.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

06-07 Basketball General

113 Responses to Florida State Game Thread (Updated with Post-Game Analysis/Ranting)

  1. vtpackfan 02/24/2007 at 4:47 PM #

    The defense gets ripped to shreads today. Ouch! Credit to all fans out there who logically say “see, this is supposed to happen becuase…”, and to a lesser degree those who have given up their support. I’m stuck in limbo and it sucks so bad.

  2. Tau837 02/24/2007 at 5:03 PM #

    I felt today highlighted our team’s relative lack of athleticism and quickness. When FSU was on offense, their guys had little trouble getting by us with their quickness and outrebounding us in large part due to their quickness and jumping ability. And when FSU was on defense, they did a great job of maintaining pressure and extending… little fear of our guys beating them off the dribble, and even if they did, they had quick leapers inside.

    Let’s face it, other than Fells and Grant, we don’t have anyone else with ACC level quickness or athleticism. Most teams have more. This was my primary concern coming into the ACC season, and I’m surprised it hasn’t shown up more often.

    I think we’ll be fine long term. Barring NCAA violations or complete collapse, there is no reason to even consider evaluating Sidney for a few more years. Give him time to get his players in, and don’t forget that this is his first time around as an ACC coach. I’m sure he is learning, and will better adapt his coaching to the college level over time. (And he’s been pretty damn good anyway.)

  3. 1.21 Jigawatts 02/24/2007 at 5:19 PM #

    I for one never said I could coach better than Lowe or any coach for that matter. If I could I would be a Div IA coach and not typing on a message board. Nor do I claim to be able to play better than anyone in college today, or high school for that matter. I’m a fan and as such I can make whatever point I so wish, even if some people find it 180 degrees different from their viewpoint.

    I don’t have an ounce of athletic ability. I’ve never coached more than a church league team. Does any of this make me an expert in basketball? Not a chance in hell. If I make a comment that I think Coach Lowe should bench the starting 5 and challenge their sense of pride, heart, and determination I’m simply expressing what I would have done in that situation to light a fire under their collective arse’s to get them to play to win. I’m sure if the benchwarmers would have been given a chance to play they’d have shown the starters what I mean by trying to win, even though they would have been grossly overmatched.

    As for consistency, let me spin a little yarn to make my point. As I have already stated I was not gifted with athletic ability or talent. If anyone saw me playing basketball they’d probably wonder if I had just picked up a basketball for the first time. Yet whenever I played a game, whether it was church league, rec league, or pickup, I played to win and never “went through the motions”. As usual I was always overmatched skill and talent wise yet that just made me push harder to try and do my best, no matter if I played 5 minutes or 40. My point being maybe that’s just me, or maybe that’s the way all “scrubs” play when given an opportunity to play in a game but what I saw on the floor this afternoon and in several games is too many times a player simply exudes through their body language, and play, that they simply don’t have it in them to play their hardest. No one could convince me that all 5 starters were physically exhausted in the first half.

    Like a previous post I made, I don’t feel like it’s every player and I don’t feel like it’s every game. Simply that this game, just like the Miami game, none of our starters appeared to want to win this game and as such it’s the coaching staff’s responsibility to get them to want to win, even if it’s not their fault.

    I want to see them win every game too. I also understand that they won’t and will probably lose more than I’d care for over the next several years. What I don’t particularly care to watch is lazy, half effort play from a bunch of guys who get to do something most of us only dream we could do. As such that’s my point of view and as a fan/alum I have just as much right to express my displeasure in today’s display as those who think otherwise.

    Sorry for being long winded SFN, I thank you for the forum and the opportunity for all of us to express our views about NC State athletics.

  4. Pack1998 02/24/2007 at 6:12 PM #

    Very disappointing game but you can’t look into it too much.

    Sidney is probably learning a thing or two this year, and you really have to give him an “incomplete” or “too new to rate” grade for the full year due to the teams situation.

    If we beat Wake and win a game or two in the ACC tourney we’ll all be pretty happy. I think those things are achievable.

    At the end of year 3 is when we’ll truly have a understanding of whether we’ll ever win another ACC title again.

  5. tractor57 02/24/2007 at 7:09 PM #

    Am I disappointed with the game -yes. Am I disappointed with the season, team or the coaching staff – no. In a couple or three years I have an entirely different view.

  6. legacyman 02/24/2007 at 7:18 PM #

    “At the end of year 3 is when we’ll truly have a understanding of whether we’ll ever win another ACC title again.”

    This post comment is right on. Those of us who are griping the most are probably those who were not realistic from the start. I didn’t make my comments to anyone in particular although several are a bit over the top.

    Each of us has the right to rant and rave and do whatever within board guidelines but to place ridiculous pressure on this bunch of kids just burns my butt. I’ll wage that those who rant the loudest haven’t the slightest idea what it takes to play on this level and to balance being a student with being a student athlete at a fairly difficult university. To say that the kids are lazy or not giving their best effort and should be replaced by the bench players is offsides and deserves a penalty.

    Sidney and these kids need all of our positive support and much less of useless babble. The coaching staff and the players…what few we have…are trying to find the answers.

    What does a kid have left when his team can’t even make a wide open pass without throwing it into the hands of the opposition. We are not blessed with much athletic ability save two or three players. We have no good ball handler who can set the offense and keep the players on the same page…bless Engin for trying.

    If you closely observe the results, almost every time we meet a team with really good athletes up and down the line and good guards, we get whipped. We can’t defend the guard who zips into our innerds and throws down a basket. We can’t outrebound many teams because our legs are tired or we are outquicked.

    We are what we are due to the recruiting of the former coach and we have to live with it. Sidney knew that when he graciously accepted our head coaching job and brought along Monte to help and convinced Larry Harris to come back and help with the recruiting. We have a very good staff and the dividends will start to appear next year and the next but to judge Sidney and staff before three years is lame.

  7. redfred2 02/24/2007 at 7:28 PM #

    ShootingGuard

    Great post as always. I would like to add that Sidney Lowe is the one person who is bringing NC State’s basketball past back to life. You are right though, call me an idiot if you will, but it really is too soon to annoint him. There may have been some other coaches out there who possibly could have shown up in Raleigh with like amounts fire and intensity as Sidney Lowe, but for RIGHT NOW though, there is no one else on the planet who could or would have come in here and done it ALL in the name of NC STATE UNIVERSITY as he has.

    Unlike many people on this site, I prefer to give Lowe much more credit for the intangibles he is steadily restoring at NC State right now, versus his VERY early W-L record. Like you said, and we all agreed before the season ever started, he doesn’t have the talent to earn a tournament birth this season. It’s just because of some incredible and timely efforts at THE most important times, people now think we should be able to compete with anyone. That is absolutely WRONG.

    What he has done so far is much more valuable than a quick trip to the NIT in his first season, but just like what we’ve suffered through in the past, those same people do not have any ability to see the importance of it. Rather than judging him for being forced to use what someone else left behind, I personally am willing to wait until Sidney Lowe gets his own list of tangibles together. Just give Sidney Lowe the same courtesy of the four or five years that was granted another coach, after another internal NCSU screw up over a decade ago, then we should all be more objective about it.

  8. vtpackfan 02/24/2007 at 7:34 PM #

    Enough with the excuses. Yes we don’t have the talent to play or the wisdom to coach. We all are fans of the Wolfpack so if the “realistic” ones want to have they monopoly of supporting the team then good luck. Just how many “realistic” fan bases sell out stadiums? You might want to ask yourself that before you look down on those who get a little worked up about a game.

    Lastly, lets see how many excuses the Coach and players use tommarrow. They haven’t pittied themselves so I don’t think showing them pitty for being thin in ranks is really a fine show of support.

  9. golf76 02/24/2007 at 7:49 PM #

    “I’ll wage that those who rant the loudest haven’t the slightest idea what it takes to play on this level and to balance being a student with being a student athlete at a fairly difficult university. ”

    I’ll wager that some of those who rant the loudest also contribute the least.

  10. Packaholic1 02/24/2007 at 9:17 PM #

    If we required posters on this forum to know what they are talking about, it certainly wouldn’t deal with college sports.

  11. BJD95 02/24/2007 at 10:51 PM #

    Look, this is a discussion forum. If you don’t like things to be DISCUSSED, then this place is not for you. I see very little indictment of the coaching staff or the season OVERALL. Fans have been very understanding about multiple lopsided defeats this season. Hell, I don’t see too many people bitching about the overall record, which is pretty much exactly what I expected (I told people all pre-season that if I were setting a Vegas line on our total of ACC wins, I’d go with 4.5).

    But it’s a simple fact that the team didn’t show up today. Period. We shot ourselves in the foot more than FSU being too good to hang with (they calmly and methodically took advantage of our lazy turnovers and nonexistant defense and rebounding.

    When you have a game like that (and yes, almost all teams at least have a few), you get criticized for it. Whether you’re in the penthouse, outhouse, or somewhere in between overall. And, IMHO, it’s fair.

    After the 2nd half meltdown in Chapel Hill, I sensed intensity and determination in our players – that they were anxious to cleanse their palettes (even though they had put up a good fight and had nothing to be ashamed of). Instead, we went out and played our worst offensive AND defensive game of the season.

    It’s not throwing the players under the bus. The reason it’s so frustrating is that we KNOW they are better than what they showed today. And we need to see that against Wake in a few days, or we are going to finish in last freaking place.

  12. beowolf 02/24/2007 at 11:20 PM #

    After the 2nd half meltdown in Chapel Hill, I sensed intensity and determination in our players – that they were anxious to cleanse their palettes (even though they had put up a good fight and had nothing to be ashamed of). Instead, we went out and played our worst offensive AND defensive game of the season.

    Same here. I was quite surprised at the lack of effort. Hearing the players after the UNX game I had thought that Sid was starting to change the culture; that the players weren’t going to be satisfied to “chop wood” after a loss, that they were really TICKED about letting that game slip by them. I am afraid that optimism was unwarranted.

  13. Classof04 02/25/2007 at 12:07 AM #

    “Before the game the TV foofs were talking about FSU wanting the score in the 70s, and NC State wanting it in the 50s. In a way, that’s exactly what happened – Florida State 78, NC State 52.”

    lol, nice.

  14. the_phisherman 02/25/2007 at 1:42 AM #

    Why I don’t get is why all of the tv commentators seem to think that we favor the pace of the game that is in the 50s. That was last years team. This year, if we are going to win, we score 80 points. If we are going to lose we only score in the 50s.

  15. Wulfpack 02/25/2007 at 8:25 AM #

    “The reason it’s so frustrating is that we KNOW they are better than what they showed today.”

    Right on. I’m not going to let people tell me what to think about this team. This team has blown past my expectations. That is why it is so frustrating to see a performance like this. Need I remind you how we played against UNC and VT? But instead, we’re in a tie for last place. I just don’t get it. I know we’re shorthanded, but how in the hell did we beat those teams? This is all about a mindset. Some games I suppose are just more important than others. I have a hard time adopting that ideology. ALL ACC games are important, some are just super-important. Just b/c you beat two of the top teams in the league doesn’t give you any right to lay down against two of the worst.

  16. Frank 02/25/2007 at 12:12 PM #

    The most important person on the team is not Engin Atsur, (even though he is very important), it is Sidney Lowe. When Sid is having an off day, the whole team is down. College kids very often play on emotion, confidence and adrenaline. If any of those three things are missing, they have a bad game. Having Sid at full speed gives this team boatloads of confidence. Since Sid did not fly down to Florida with the team, but took a later plane, everything was out of sync. Florida State played their best game of the season and State played it’s worst. Enough said.

  17. redfred2 02/25/2007 at 12:16 PM #

    Wulf

    I agree with your post for the most part, but I don’t think anyone can put a finger on the exact problem right now. There is the depth issue, but that is overblown and shouldn’t be a problem at the start of a game. At this point there is more a lack of focus involving the mental aspects of the game.

    Do I not think we were good enough to beat UNC, or VT (TWICE)?

    NO, I did not. We did though, and whether that is considered a plus, or a minus for the coaching staff, I guess is all in the eye of the beholder.

    We have had some great wins that built us up, followed directly by lackadaisical losses that brought us back down. All I can say is that this team/coaching staff is not experienced or mentally strong enough to handle the ACC just yet. But I’ll ask, from the very start, did anyone out there ever honestly believe that it was?

  18. vtpackfan 02/25/2007 at 1:01 PM #

    “But I’ll ask, from the very start, did anyone out there ever honestly believe that it was?”

    We have come a long way from that strangest of starts Sidney Lowe has had. That’s a good point. Some times I lose perspective of that and base my expectations on one or two games. All I have been spouting over this thread is that I can see both sides of things right now. I understand that as much time and patience need to be alotted this staff as needed. I also understand that no matter how sensible a thing it is for many followers of this program to take account the personnel issues that it’s still a gut wrenching thing to watch your team get scalped by FSU. Somewhere in between these two perspectives are where most of us are.

  19. ShootingGuard 02/25/2007 at 2:39 PM #

    If you want to call it “excuse” making and want to continue to wonder why we are so “inconsistent” and have great games and terrible games…so be it…

    The FACTS are:

    1
    We have a tremendous lack of experience, speed, depth, athleticism, a real point guard, a center, etc.

    2
    We have only a few decent guys who all have to log 35-40 minutes a game and have done so all season long with teams with twice as many decent equally conditioned players logging far fewer minutes plus pressing and beating on them all game every game.

    3
    Every team, every player in every sport has bad games—even UNC with all of their talented all-americans and 2-3 deep depth at every position. You just have less margin for error—and more horrible games—when you have less kids in your rotation and even less margin for error when all of your kids aren’t all-americans to begin with.

    If you want to chalk that up as loser excuse making or players or coaches being losers who don’t care or don’t bring it every game…so be that too…

    When you have a minute, please call every major league baseball team and tell them to quit tracking pitch counts and tell panzies who don’t care like Schilling and Mussina, etc. to start pitching in all of the games on zero days rest and don’t ever come out until the final out in the 9th inning and don’t cry or give up hits when you don’t care just because this is your 5th straight start exceeding 100 pitches…

    REASONS, FACTS, STATISTICS, MARGINS FOR ERROR, STANDARD DEVIATION, ETC. ARE ALL FOR EXCUSE MAKING LOSERS, CURT (I.E. GAVIN)!! WE ALL SAW YOU PITCH WITH THAT BLOODY RED SOCK (I.E. BEAT CAROLINA)…WHAT IS YOUR EXCUSE NOW!! WHY CAN’T YOU PITCH LIKE THAT EVERYTIME?!?! WHY DOES THAT IDIOT COACH FRANCONA (I.E. SID) NOT PITCH YOU EVERY GAME?? ON THE FLIP SIDE, WHY DOESN’T THAT IDIOT COACH STOP STARTING YOU AT ALL BECAUSE IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU DIDN’T CARE LAST TIME OUT AGAINST THE SORRY ASS DEVIL RAYS (I.E. MIAMI)!! WE BEAT THE YANKEES (I.E. UNC) EARLIER THIS SEASON AND HAVE WAY MORE TALENT THAN THOSE DAMN DEVIL RAYS EVEN THOUGH JOHNNY DAMON (I.E. BRACKMAN) LEFT!! YOU OBVIOUSLY DON’T CARE OR HAVE GIVEN UP THIS SEASON!!

  20. cpwolfpackfan 02/25/2007 at 4:27 PM #

    Everyone just take a deep breath and clam down a little. Did we not pretty much all know at the biggining of the season that this year was going to be a struggle????? Yes we did. This year has gone pretty much like I expected. Some major wins, and some dissapointing losses. With the big wins what happed is exactley what I was scared of. The expectations shot through the roof. If someone would have told all of us at the biggining of the year that going into the last 3 games we would have a shot at a NIT bid and finishing 10th, and not last like predected we would have all been happy. So everyone calm down, we are going to be ok. We have some major players coming in the next few years and sid is right on track. Don’t bash the coaches or the players no matter what happens this year. With only 7 players ,one of which was a walk-on, our starting point gard out about half the season, and so many young players logging mins, Sid has done a great job. SO come on Pack fans, calm down and chill out a sec and talk a long look at the season, it has been an outstanding success so far and if you thing outher wise you need to come down from the clouds.

  21. highstick 02/25/2007 at 7:42 PM #

    “With the big wins what happed is exactley what I was scared of. The expectations shot through the roof.”

    Exactly right and since 3 of those wins were against Carolina and VT, maybe the expectations got even more inflated!

    This season is gonna be whatever it is, but I have reason to believe that the future’s going to be brighter!

  22. brown pelican 02/26/2007 at 12:40 AM #

    bottom line—one more win over a top 25 team—and—we have 4 wins over top 25 teams for the season—a post season bid to the nit—a ‘non-losing’ season—and—we will have survived a difficult transition season with some true positives to build upon for next season and years to come—go pack

  23. Rick 02/26/2007 at 8:31 AM #

    Last night I watched the end of the ASU and Az game.

    It made it far more easy to swallow this loss.
    The weave and heave is in full effect. They now call it the “flex” but the results are the same. Last minute, long range, contested, threes.

    There is no doubt we are better off right now with Sid a the helm.

  24. BJD95 02/26/2007 at 9:34 AM #

    The VT and UNC games didn’t throw me off – I certainly don’t expect great results or performance every time out. I do expect more fight than we saw against Miami and FSU, though – especially given the stakes.

  25. zahadum 02/26/2007 at 9:40 AM #

    Shooting Guard, I agree with all of your points above. Watching us have to go to OT against UNCG was a pretty good indicator of what this year was going to be like.

    My concern is that, even if he’s a genius, its probably going to take Sid years plural to turn this thing around and I just hope the fanbase is ready to deal with that. The wins over Carolina and VT have, hopefully, bought him some time.

    Because we aren’t just losing games, we’re getting pounded. Of our 10 conference losses so far, 8 or them have been by over 10 points. And unless he’s Kevin Durant’s lost twin brother, I just don’t see how JJ plus a couple of average guards is going to make that much of a difference overnight.

    I know we all want a strong team so badly we can taste it, but we may have to growl and bear it for a while yet. Although I too am cautiously optimistic about next year. (Assuming no major surprises with who goes pro, my crystal ball calls for us to be anywhere from 5th to 7th in the league next year.)

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