Virginia 71 NC State 58

06-07 Basketball General85

“Just in case anyone needed a reminder, we aren’t very good this year.”

^These comments were actually shared by one of our community’s best posters (ShootingGuard) after NC State’s home loss to Boston College three and a half weeks ago. For whatever reason, they stayed in my mind and I thought that today was appropriate to bring them back.

As you can tell, this loss was all about the perimeter. We can’t shoot very well from behind the arc and we can’t play very good defense on the perimeter. When you are matched up against the two best shooting guards in the league – Singletary and Reynolds – that is a bad mix.

Virginia guards J.R. Reynolds and Sean Singletary couldn’t be stopped tonight, combining for 56 points. The Pack, meanwhile, couldn’t shoot and couldn’t score — not enough — in losing 71-58.

“If you have good guards, you’ll win in this conference, you’ll win college basketball games,” Lowe said after the Pack fell to 1-5 in the ACC. “They had good guards. They made shots and we didn’t.”

The Pack shot 31.7 percent for the game, going 7-for-27 on 3’s. In contrast, Reynolds and Singletary together were 10 of 18 on 3’s.

State may be looking at a best case scenario of 3-13 in the ACC this year. So, Wolfpackers must remain focused on the future. We should all be great at that as we are now approaching the 20th year of the phrase “Wait til next year!” being a major component of our lexicon.

This item of shooting from the PG, SG, and 3F threatens to carry over into next year and it scares me. Everything that we have heard about Farnold Degand is related to athleticism, defense, and quickness; nothing about offense and shooting. So, unless Marques Johnson has some special stroke that has not been publicly discussed…why should we expect shooting next year to be any better than this year with generally the same players playing the same position? – Fells, Grant, Ferguson?

The more I watch, the more I wonder/hope that Dennis Horner can continue to improve and round out his game between now and next year. Because of Horner’s ability to shoot the ball from the arc, you may see starting line-ups next year that resemble the line up from last night (no Gavin Grant).

After last night’s game Rick shared the following comments that should be highlighted:

This team has problems:

(1) There is absloutely no team speed. Fells is the quickest we have and he was getting beat at will. Speed is more important than height in basketball, how “you klnow who” did not know this astounds me.

(2) Our “guards” have no basketball IQ. Grant and Fells just don’t make smart decisions. Who knows if this is just because that is the way they are or if past coaching did not teach them well. I am again surprised that __ recruited this team on purpose.

(3) No leadership. No one is willing or able to step up and take over this team.

I see Sid trying everything he knows back there. Switching offenses and defenses but he just cannot over come these problems. He was handed a lemon and no sugar.

I am going to leave you with the text of the comments of ShootingGuard’s post from three and a half weeks ago.

Just in case anyone needed a reminder, we aren’t very good this year.

We have a coach coaching with passion and a limited number of players playing with extreme heart, but we lack a lot all over the court and will struggle all season as a result.

If anyone has been fooling themselves about how great we are—or should or could be—and doesn’t understand what we lack, just look at BC vs us. They have a Sr. 6′8″-6′9″ combo forward playing the 3 while we have 2 similar but young combo forwards playing pf and center for us—going up vs their 2 experienced 7-footers. They have a little quick pg while we have no one who is particularly quick on the perimeter. We do have decent size and athleticism on the wing, but BC, like almost everyone else we will face, can match that with their own—so we get no advantage there.

As much as I like Atsur’s scrappiness and having him back for a 7-8 man rotation, he was made for a slowdown PO type of offense and is really more of a “coming off the bench” type of guy for a really good team rather than a main leader type as he has to be for us—a poor man’s Greg Paulus, unfortunately. Although Atsur’s calmness will be big help sometimes, I think, unfortunately, it will also hurt us at times as well as his walk-it-up style allows defenses to set against us. It would be nice if we had a speed burner pg AND Atsur for a changeup, but “we are who we are” and have to make the best of it for now…

Fells needs to get focused and bring it every game. Unfortunately, with such a limited bench, benching a guy—or two—who are off means a huge drop off in talent or potential on the floor…

Unfortunately, to go along with our lackings, we also came out ice cold today…

Oh well, I guess I will stop before I waste anymore time analyzing our limits and failures—or falling into dreamy WTNY mode wondering how the game might have been different with a speed burner pg, Costner sliding out to cover Dudley while JJ Hickson played center and Ben manned the pf…

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06-07 Basketball General

85 Responses to Virginia 71 NC State 58

  1. ShootingGuard 01/25/2007 at 7:29 PM #

    “Par Shooter – you said what I think many of us are thinking – could it be that Sid’s not the coach we hope he’ll be? Shouldn’t we expect to see the best these particular guys have to offer every night, whether winning or losing? Where’s the evidence of his impact?
    Let’s not forget that Sid’s learning too. ”

    It is WAY too early to think about critiquing and especially criticizing Lowe. Frankly, at the risk of ruining my props on this blog, it is just plain stupid at this point. I will say this one last time and move on…Lowe has very few bullets in his gun right now. Lowe was left with a thin ROSTER, not a basketball TEAM. Without Atsur, there is no point guard, no bench, no experience, very little athleticism, very little speed, no center, and no shooters. With Atsur, you get extra scrappiness but you still only add a combo guard who can’t create his own shot and is slow as Christmas. The ROSTER is definitely better with Atsur, but there are too many holes even with him to call this a TEAM. You have 4 guys with the youth and talent to form the foundation of something potentially special IF they are given the proper amount of time and IF the coach is given time. The rest of the ROSTER amounts to what Fred Sanford might have pulled out of the junkpile—scraps and salvage, nothing more and nothing less. The last time I looked, 4 young players with zero previous experience + 1 guy hobbling to play plus some scrap and salvage does not equal a basketball TEAM. Also, while it is popular and there may be some truth to the effort question plenty of folks are raising, I think a lot of that is really FRUSTRATION and less from lack of effort. As the season has worn on against better and better competition, these guys have grown very FRUSTRATED playing out of position, not having anyone to handle the ball or set them up, choosing just to throw up shots rather than wait for the next turnover that sets up the opponent for an easy basket, etc. The holes in the TEAM are leading to snowballing FRUSTRATION and bad outcomes as a result.

    My apologies in advance for this next one, SFN, also my last time before I move on…But, to all those who want to question the coaching change at this point, all last night proves about any coach is that HERB SENDEK SUCKED!! Yeah, that’s right. This would have been Herb’s 11th year, and, in all that time, he never recruited ONE point guard half as good as Singletary or any other guard who could shoot it like JR Reynolds (2 very important parts to having a TEAM and not a ROSTER). Chris Wright will probably turn out to be the exception, but that would have been YEAR 12!! That’s why it took him 6 years to get us back to the NCAA’s and a lot of BCA Classic wins and smoke-and-mirrors the next several years to keep going back. Think about that when you watch Dave Leito head off to the NCAA’s in Year 2 (even Pete Gillen could recruit point guards) along with powerhouse Virginia Tech in its ACC infancy or you watch Paul Hewitt role out Critt against us, his second gem of a point guard in about half of Herbie’s tenure. The only problem with the coaching change, besides who the AD was at the time, was that it wasn’t done sooner, and we had to suffer watching non-UNC-Duke teams like Wake win the ACC regular season, GT play UConn for all the marbles (instead of a “once in a lifetime S16”), and, of course, Maryland win the ACC regular season / ACC Tourney / 2 Final Fours / NCAA Championship…

    Lowe can be judged next year if we don’t improve as well as every year after that based on improvement, but any conclusions prior to that are truly mindless.

  2. jamieinkorea 01/25/2007 at 7:54 PM #

    Let’s see….

    ShootingGuard says we suck this year, and SFN says we’re going to suck next year, too. Wow. I love the positive energy that flows through here. It’s no wonder Pack Fans have received such a bad image in the past year.

  3. packpigskinfan23 01/25/2007 at 7:55 PM #

    ^mindless indeed.

    to even judge Lowe much next year would be a bit premature. and I think SFN is a little right in hinting that a lot of us are looking forward to next year thru rose-tinted glasses. Next year is going to be tough. nothing like this year, but still tough. the adversities the team is experiencing now should help them deal with what will come next year.

  4. packpigskinfan23 01/25/2007 at 7:58 PM #

    jamieinkorea- I believe shootingguard is one of the most insightful and positive fans on this board. He is just stating what should be apparent to all of us. His comments are here to actully calm some of the negativity coming from many of us by reminding us that we cant expect much at all. Some people are picking apart ever aspect of the games like we are an ACC contender this year. We are NOT. and most likely wont be next year either. and we should know that and be at ease with it now so we there isnt as much judging the heart of the coach and the players.

  5. jamieinkorea 01/25/2007 at 8:12 PM #

    “Some people are picking apart ever aspect of the games like we are an ACC contender this year.”

    This is my point.

    I, for one, never had any false hopes that State would be a good team this year. I did, and for the most part, still do have hope for the future. WE HAVE SIX GUYS. Recognize that. SIX. We can do nothing but get better. It is completely forseeable that 5 years down the road we will be back where we were in the 70’s and early 80’s. Why start with the “Oh, it’s terrible, and it’s going to be terrible next year, and then it’s going to be terrible the next year, too?”

    Having a positive outlook isn’t the same as “wearing rose-colored glasses,” it’s just the opposite of what so many people on here and SFN do: Look ant things from the most negative perspective possible.

    BTW, I wasn’t knocking Shooting Guard, I was knocking the author of this article for being so negative.

  6. packpigskinfan23 01/25/2007 at 8:16 PM #

    I understand your point, I just dont think SFN was meaning to sound negative, just realistic.

    and i agree that 5 years from now we can be a Top 10 type team. maybe within 3 years. I am just not delusioned enough to think next year is going to be the year that we will sit on top of the ACC. we are still going to struggle to be an NCAA tourny team next year.

  7. vtpackfan 01/25/2007 at 8:49 PM #

    I got to watch the first half last night, oh what a treat!. Here’s some of what I noticed:
    1) GG not starting seemed interesting. I’m glad it was two fold, a rule violation and a “get your but in gear your supposed to be a leader”. Kudos to Coach Lowe for trying to spark some of his young players in different ways. He didn’t recruit them, and he is still getting to know them. By next year he may hav a better feel for this team ad how the respond.

    2) Another variation by Sid was plainly on display. Even if you chose not to stay up to watch the tragedy unfold you could pick up this morning’s paper and see that Fells had 10 rebounds. Remember when the Pack used to try to look up court and push it a little to set up early in the halfcourt (non-conference and WF games primarily)? Well, looks like this style of play has been put on he shelf for now so that Courtney and his long wing span can crash the boards. It’s the by product of Costner and McCauley not etting it done against ACC caliber big men. The result is our best player in the open court having to do work on the defensive glass because of our weakness there. Again, kudos to Coach for making the adjustment. We looked better when we could beat teams down the court and set up our offense early, but you have to trade it all for any chance of getting the ball back when the other teams misses. Pretty sad actually.

    3) I don’t know if Larry Harris has alot “new” teachings methods for his big men yet. I don’t think he had to look at lot of tape after his big men played and critique what they could do better in the post. I say this because we had zero post game for five years. Break out the vcr Larry because you and Mr. McCauley have to change things up a little. At first Ben was getting away with being an unknown, but now that he has been seen playing around the ACC block, teams are catching on. They adjusted to him, now he and the staff have to adjust to what others are doing to him. I understand that he is undersized and bit and being pushed further away from the basket. Off season bulking up and maybe a more confident face up game can be tried, but mainly in the off season. I am mainly worried about how he has been making nice moves after a ball fake or two and attacking an area where he becomes double- teamed. Notice I didn’t say they doubled him, rather he moved INTO a double team. Frankly, although he has great footwork and may be one of the most agile ben men in the ACC, he’s doing the same thing over and over. It’s like Trestman’s play calling, so they know where his tendancies are. No big deal, just an observation on my part, and probably only in my head.

    Lastly, next year’s shootin will not be a big deal if we limit TO’s, get more rebounds, shoot better from the FT, and do what Coach Lowe prescribes about passing on the harder shot in an effort to atleat one good look each trip down the floor. The three pointer sucks. It makes average teams look very good and is way to close to the basket. It’s part of the game and it will always be that way so you have to be ready for it. Defending, stretching the opponnet or trying to make a late comeback, its all very crucial. But if this season teaches us anything, it’s that when you do alot of things bad it’s really no use saying “if we could just do this a little better”. That’s for the teams sizing up for a deep run in the NCAA’s, not for one enduring “reconstruction”.

    We will be better in certain facets of basketball next year, but we shouldn’t start feeling like we’re out of the woods just yet. Degand and Johnson woul be the perfect stop gap until we recruit a true pg if we can get some NCSU Bio genetics engineer to combine the two player into one. Frankly, either one running the show with Fells or Grant there for back up shouldn’t win us a bunch more games. Mays and Williams in ’08 will be one to look out for. The ceiling could be pretty high for these two even though their not highly touted now.

  8. redfred2 01/25/2007 at 8:53 PM #

    I think that all of the coaches in the new positions as mentioned above, along with the one that took over after Les Robinson left NCSU, inherited basketball TEAMS that had been playing the natural game of basketball. No one had to reprogram or retrain those players, or convince them not to drink anymore kool aid. They were playing the same game that every kid plays in HS and every day in his own back yard. It’s that same style of basketball that makes kids go diving for loose balls and playing their hearts out. The same game that the programs responsible for winning major conference and national titles still play today.

    We lost sight of that.

    This is not, and nothing about it from the very beginning has ever been, anything even comparable to any other coaching change. Maybe parts of it here and there, but not altogether, and not at one time at the same place. Comparisons to others do not apply. Broad sweeping statements about NC State basketball right now, or anyone involved with it, do not apply. It is just plain foolish to make any judgements right now.

  9. Pack1998 01/25/2007 at 9:19 PM #

    I think some others said it well . . . basically that Sid is going to be a great coach, but he is learning too. This team will be exponentially better even next year.

    Though I get frustrated, it truly is not fair to get frustrated at this point . . . the teams we have lost to in the ACC are most likely going to the NCAA. We’ve basically lost to the top half of the ACC, excluding UNC.

  10. Dan 01/26/2007 at 12:37 AM #

    Shooting Guard. I agree with almost everything you said. One minor point, Julius Hodge was the ACC POY. Singletary has yet to do that. (Although, I would say that Julius is the exception to the rule and that Sean has a chance at that this year)

  11. Rick 01/26/2007 at 8:12 AM #

    “Lowe was left with a thin ROSTER, not a basketball TEAM.”

    This cannot be emphasized enough. I have said it before and I will say it again, who would recruit this set of players? I cannot imagine how anyone would think they can win at the highest level. We have talent but not anythign that resembles a team.

    This also puts to rest the oft quoted “Herb is going to install a new offense” theory. It is obvious this team was set up for the PO. Stupid!

  12. jwrenn29 01/26/2007 at 8:14 AM #

    The good news is we have one more win in conference than a certain team in Arizona.

  13. choppack1 01/26/2007 at 8:29 AM #

    “I think some others said it well . . . basically that Sid is going to be a great coach, but he is learning too. This team will be exponentially better even next year.”

    We don’t know that Sidney will be a great coach. I certainly hope that he is. However, this year has been such a train wreck – for reasons out of his control, that we really don’t know what he can do from a coaching standpoint or what he’s going to do when he has all of the pieces necessary to put out a traditional basketball team.

    I’ve enjoyed watching our wide variety of offensive sets – and I enjoy watching a coach really, really work the officials. Sid has done a spectacular job recruiting thus far. However, I’m a little concerned about our D – and what looked like flat performances against BC and Duke. Sid is still an unproven commodity – he never proved himself as a good HC in the NBA.

    But that means nothing right now to me. This year is all about transition – transition for our kids and transition for our coaches – in particular our head coach – who has no college coaching experience whatsoever. The ride is going to be bumpier than I was hoping – but that’s not Sid’s fault.

    Next year, we’ll have a better glimpse into Sid’s ultimate vision and abilities. The next year – year 3 – we should have some evidence if we’ve got a special guy leading the program. But even in year 3, it may be necessary for us to have some patience. The evidence may just be a NIT final 4 or a 10 seed in the NCAA tourney.

    This year – you just can’t judge him -good or bad.

  14. Par Shooter 01/26/2007 at 9:46 AM #

    I agree that we can’t really judge Sid this year, but I certainly think it is fair to make observations as long as they are kept in the context of what he was given to work with. My real concern at this point is that there does not seem to be a commitment (from the players) to defense and rebounding like I would have hoped.

    We have the size to be a pretty good rebounding team. The lineup that’s gotten the most time (minus Atsur) has good size at every position. We just don’t block out. We didn’t block out under Herb and we don’t do it now and it drives me nuts. And our wings (Gavin/Fells) are worse about it than our bigs, but they are all pretty bad. While I understand that they are tired and that sometimes plays a factor, we give up lots of offensive rebounds early in halves when we should be relatively fresh. Peronally, I think that chalking this up solely to fatigue is a copout for the players and coaches. We are a bad rebounding team. Period. It’s killed us for the last several years and it’s killing us now. And it is going to have to change before we can expect any level of success. One of the things that excited me about Sid upon his hiring was the commitment to defense and rebounding evident from the Pistons. Sid knows that defense and rebounding win championships. And yet I see absolutely no commitment from our players to excel at either skill.

    I do think that a lot of our defensive woes are more related to personnel (or lack thereof). Quick guards (hell, any guards) are able to pretty much waltz through our D w/ ease. That puts a lot of pressure on everyone else. I don’t think that Costner or McCauley do a very good job of helping out but they are inexperienced and they also have to worry about fouls. I’d like to see them be more active in a team concept defensively and it wouldn’t hurt to see either Fells or Grant at least exhibit that they know what a defensive stance is (sorry Gav, it isn’t standing straight up w/ your hands at your side). But I do think that fatigue, fouls and a lack of quickness on the perimeter are hampering our efforts. I guess where I’m headed with this is that our situation probably dictates that we will not be a good defensive team no matter what. However, that situation does not totally excuse some of what we’ve seen from a fundamentals/effort standpoint. And that stuff has to change.

  15. choppack1 01/26/2007 at 10:21 AM #

    Par Shooter – I see where you’re coming from, but for your sanity, consider this year a wash.

    You can’t rightly judge Sid right now. I guess there are ways that he could have proven he’s going to be a fantastic coach and there are ways that you could say, he doesn’t have a clue. It’s worth noting that neither Dean Smith or Coach K would have wanted to be joined in years 1 or 2.

  16. Mike 01/26/2007 at 10:45 AM #

    TNCSU – only one other person would have thought of that strategy. His name was Valv…….wait a minute, dont want to think to the past, that would be blasphemy to think about NCState tradition and history.

    Mike, wake up, that era is gone………the past can be talked about again! We can re-live the rich heritage and tradition of NC State. That guys name was Valvano, and he would done something crazy like that in a New York second. Maybe there is hope after all.

    And on the bright side, we have not lost 10 in a row.

  17. Gene 01/26/2007 at 11:29 AM #

    I have said it before and I will say it again, who would recruit this set of players? I cannot imagine how anyone would think they can win at the highest level.

    This set of players wasn’t meant to play all by their lonesome. We were theoretically supposed to have Ced Simmons at Center, and Brackman at PF, with Davis being able to play some PG and Werner giving us some more depth up front.

    Take any program and have the top two front court players leave the program early and than have 2/3 of the incoming recruiting class opt out of thier LOI’s and let me know the team that would still look like it had a solid, complete, 12 man roster.

  18. redfred2 01/26/2007 at 1:15 PM #

    TNCSU

    I am surprised and I also thought that stategy would have, or possibly could have, worked in several games so far. Especially early in the season while running basically a five man rotation. It would have slowed the game, allowed our players to get a short breather late in the game, and Sidney could have talked strategy with Gavin, or whoever, while the shoots were being taken.

    There are many positives involved, especially with our shortage of players. Why that strategy hasn’t come into play yet, I do not understand.

  19. Rick 01/26/2007 at 1:37 PM #

    “This set of players wasn’t meant to play all by their lonesome. We were theoretically supposed to have Ced Simmons at Center, and Brackman at PF, with Davis being able to play some PG and Werner giving us some more depth up front.”

    So how will this help turnovers?

    Hint: Larry Davis is not the answer.

  20. Par Shooter 01/26/2007 at 1:39 PM #

    I’ve heard the “this year is a wash” argument, but I don’t buy it. This year is supposed to be the start of building something great. You start laying a foundation. The record is of little concern, but you want to see progress. Guys giving it their all every trip. In terms of setting the tone w/ a new coach, I think the 1st year – especially if you’re undermanned – is a great opportunity to build and grow. That’s what I want to see.

    Honestly, our guys are all too often playing like they think this year is a wash and that’s a problem. I also don’t recall getting a break on season tix from the WPC since we were taking the year off.

  21. Par Shooter 01/26/2007 at 1:42 PM #

    And the fouling strategy took a big hit when the ncaa adopted the double bonus. It totally changes the odds of outscoring someone by putting them on the line. It may have worked the other night (couldn’t have turned out any worse) but generally this approach isn’t nearly as effective as in ’83.

  22. redfred2 01/26/2007 at 2:14 PM #

    Par Shooter

    I was thinking back to Clemson game mainly, we hadn’t played like it but we were within striking distance late. The Tigers shot under 48 percent from the line as a team that night in Raleigh. That’s an output of less than 1 for 2 from the line on most trips there. That’s pretty good odds on gaining ground with enough time left. Plus among the six players with minutes, besides Fells who fouled out, the other five still had twelve fouls to give.

  23. redfred2 01/26/2007 at 2:16 PM #

    Admittedly, you have to score, and score quickly on your end, to make that strategy work.

  24. Par Shooter 01/26/2007 at 2:51 PM #

    True, and Clemson has been a pretty bad team at the line all year I believe. I can’t really recall how much they scored on us late in that game w/ us playing straight up. I was there but the double digit home losses are all running together for me now into one big stinky blob.

  25. vtpackfan 01/26/2007 at 5:04 PM #

    I don’t think anyone said it was a “wash” this season. I guess that Par Shooter is para phrasing or something. What’s so hard to figure out about this years line up?

    One other thing. Does anyone here really thing that Coach’s and their respective teams can choose whether they win or lose looking good or looking ragged. Two teams are trying to accomplish the same thing, and when one is doing it better to a certain degree the other is going to look kind of foolish.

    The kind of stuff I hear is “I don’t care about the wins or losses as long as we doing things the right way..” Doesn’t the other team kicking our ass have a say in this? I’m not criticizing as much as wrning people that this is a trap that some one sets up for themselves saying when they expect paradoxes such as this. Come equipped next time with some info. Find a major conference team in the nation with only one win, and explain to me us how they looking like they “moving in the right direction”. Chances are the reasoning will have to do with youth, coaching and recruiting. Basically the kind of things tat are “projected”. The in game info will say just the opposite then that. It will say that this team stinks against it’s opponets, thats why it has one win, and amazingly enough it hasn’t been pretty.

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