Technician to Stafford: Improve or Retire

Campus News General NC State Administration82

Please DO NOT disregard this blog entry as some non-sports entry in which you don’t have any interest. If you are, were, or may be a student at NC State at some point in your life, then the topic of “The Student Experience” at NC State should be of extreme importance to you.

Unfortunately, the quality of “The Student Experience” has not been of extreme importance to the ‘good folks’ at NC State for quite a long time and Technician is writing about the topic in a must read piece.

They don’t hesitate to place the spotlight on Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Tom Stafford. Under Stafford’s reign, NC State has seen the end of institutional traditions such as student campouts, The Lawn Party and Wolfstock while other key social elements to the student experience like Hillsborough Street and the Greek system of deteriorated to near death. (Just to name a few)

We are going to have have more on this later in the day…but my morning is swamped. I wanted to get this on the blog asap in hopes some of our best readers would share their thoughts and insights on NC State’s continuously dwindling student experience.

In short, NC State is becoming a large commuter school.

Please share some of your comments, thoughts and insights.

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Campus News General NC State Administration

82 Responses to Technician to Stafford: Improve or Retire

  1. TopTenPack 01/30/2007 at 2:37 PM #

    Stafford told me at dinner one time that he wanted to cancel campout the first year he worked for NCSU. He tought it silly for students to miss a entire weekend of studying.

    Stafford also killed the greek system. The university spent millions renovating greek court and charge the fraternities for the cost. Of the 14 fraternities of the court in 1965, 13 were there in 1997. Now, less than 5 remain. Since the renovations have failed, Staford’s team wants to tear down the entire court and start all over. A huge waste of money.

  2. BoKnowsNCS71 01/30/2007 at 2:52 PM #

    Re: building dorms.

    I think a lot has changed since the old dorm life days. Kids want their cars. There are more apartments, condos, and even houses in Raleigh that are rented. Off campus housing provides more freedom — to party, to have live in girl/boy friends and stuff like that.

    Just my guess.

  3. Gene 01/30/2007 at 3:06 PM #

    The problem is probably more of the John Edwards

    Don’t blame the lawyers for suing, blame their clients for thinking any boo-boo should be awarded a settlement by the courts. If people stopped thinking about being letigous, than lawsuits would drop…anyway it’s getting off topic…

    As much as I generally dislike Chapel Hill, as a city (very stuck up town and has been for as long as I can remember) Frankling Street has maintained a level of shops, bars, clubs, etc., which help the student experience at UNC-Ch.

    Hillsborough Street is not coming close to being able to compete with that.

    bought Mission Valley Shopping Center and ‘North Hills’d’ it for a campus community you could see a thriving area.

    I don’t disagree, there could be more of a non-Hillsborough street focus for NCSU campus life, but for some reason there is little effort made by the University to convince the city of Raleigh to invest in developing the area around the campus, whether Hillsborough street or Western Blvd.

    With the effort Raliegh’s but into livening up downtown, they could just as easily shift some of those resources a few miles down the road to NCSU.

    Does beg the question about why the Unversity isn’t pushing harder for development.

    Raleigh doesn’t really need NC State.

    I think NCSU is the second largest employer in Raleigh, behind the State government.

    Raleigh needs NCSU. Many new residents settle in Wake County because they attended NCSU and got jobs in the area.

    Having a major university, with relatively affordable prices, is a major attraction for people to move to the area.

    I live out of state and finding a good, affordable university, is almost impossible. The good ones are private and not easily affordable, while the affordable, in-state schools, are small and not nearly as good and lacking the connections a large school like NCSU would have with prospective employers.

    I remember high school projects, which used to send me scurrying to D.H. Hill to look up actual reference books, instead of relying on watered down books local libraries have. We even had some really bright kids, who could take college release classes, where they could enroll at NCSU, when the exhausted what courses the high school had to offer in a particular subject.

    Having a major unversity is a big benefit to Raleigh, in terms of employment, attracting new residents, and even improving the educational opportunities for high school kids.

    Now only if NCSU could turn its improtance into something, which would work with the small business owners, who would be essential in bringing business back to the downtown / NCSU area and the city of Raleigh, to improve the student experience and the city of Raleigh.

  4. choppack1 01/30/2007 at 3:07 PM #

    It’s not fair to compare NC State to places like LSU, Clemson, UGa, UVa, UNC due to the totally different dynamic. Even both UT’s – since those are viewed as their respective State’s university.

    What does concern me is that I see a lack of leadership in getting NC STate to have a truly special prescence and identity on it’s campus and surrounding areas.

    The university obviously sees the need to form partnerships w/ corporations as it pertains to research and development – and that’s played a key role in the Centenial campus. However, what’s missing is an effort to create a tangible feeling of being a student or visitor at NC State.

  5. packgrad2000 01/30/2007 at 3:21 PM #

    This is unrelated but I laughed out loud when I saw the picture & headline:http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582336,00.html
    Had to post it.

  6. StateFans 01/30/2007 at 3:23 PM #

    “In addition, the growth of the Centenial campus and all of the growth on the other side of Western Blvd has served to make NC State less intimate and cozy, and further marginalize Hillsborough Street.”

    This is actually a FANTASTIC POINT.

    There is NO DOUBT that there is a shift in this dynamic. And, with this shift comes an awesome opportunity to really make the situation better for everyone (including the residents behind Hillsborough Street who don’t welcome natural extensions and consequences of buying property where they chose to buy property).

    SO…what kind of work/partnership/strategic plans have the University worked on to optimize and re-develop the Mission Valley/Western Blvd/Avent Ferry Road cluster?

    This looks to be a wonderful location to bring more vibrant commercial, retail and housing ideas to the table. It would/could be the defacto center of the ‘new’ University and also convenient to the (supposed) future redeveloped fraternity court. I’d love to hear what Stafford and the Univeristy have been working on the last 15 years.

  7. BoKnowsNCS71 01/30/2007 at 3:47 PM #

    Packgrad2000 — Brilliant! SFN has got to use that somewhere someday. Perfect Tar Heel pink.

  8. Wolfman300 01/30/2007 at 3:52 PM #

    Packgrad2000 – Great Find. That headline and picture are a perfect combination. It just confirms what we have known for a long time now.

  9. nycfan 01/30/2007 at 4:08 PM #

    When I last visited NC State’s campus in 2001, after not having visited since the Les Robinson era (maybe 93 or 94?), and not having spent any time on campus since the late ’80s/early 90s, I was really stunned at how run down Hillsborough Street had become and how the campus seemed sort of empty … it used to seem far more bustling and a friend told me it was b/c the campus had been split up by all the expansion and that what I think of as the “main” campus is not even visited regularly by upperclassmen in a lot of majors. He also said that a lot of students live farther away and tend not to just “hang out” on campus since they have a long drive back to where they live (and often hold down a part-time job).

    I haven’t been back again, but it was beautiful spring weather during February (not spring break) and I was surpised b/c the campus just seemed desolate somehow — I was going to Brothers for some pizza and it was closed (I can’t remember now if that was permanent or not, but I was bummed).

    Its intersting to hear that State is moving toward commuter school status b/c it used to be a fun social spot — Wolfstock was great. That could explain some difficulty in getting students to feel involved in basketball games (except the big games) — I had assumed part of the difficulty of having a consistent, loud student presence was that the arena is “off-campus” — but maybe the problem is more that the students are off-campus(???) …

    One thing that certainly makes it tough on students is to have the campus isolated by a major highway … it sounds like a little thing, but it’s not. UNCC is hemmed in by major traffic thruways and it largely prevents the development of “college” type businesses.

    OTOH, at Texas, Austin is cut up by major highways, though it does have the advantage that the campus is pretty expansive and larglely contiguous even though it is bounded by interstates (it is also so freaking expensive to live off campus that I think students tend to live on campus longer than at other schools).

  10. brown pelican 01/30/2007 at 4:15 PM #

    as a mid-late 70’s grad who lived through the holtz era—dt/monte/tommy b–streaking—nickel beer at mitch’s—red burgers at the college grill—etc—it’s hard to imagine that college life could have been better than it was at state then—the place was electric—the vibrance that our strong athletic programs provided resonated throughout the university community—the difference today—many that have been mentioned in other posts on this thread—-but—imho—leadership—chancellor caldwell and ad willis casey—got it done—state was world class in many areas of scholarship—and—top shelf athletically—any chance for ncsu to become the college experience that it should be must start at the top—since joab thomas—we’ve struggled there—the opportunity for change exists—like the pack did back then—let’s get it done

  11. Andy 01/30/2007 at 4:33 PM #

    I don’t know how many of you still live in raleigh but downtown/glenwood south have definately picked up a lot of the slack in the bar/nightclub department

  12. CarnifeX 01/30/2007 at 4:42 PM #

    ^

    to add to andy;
    If there was once nightlife around NCSU; it has now moved to Glenwood South (between Peace and Hillsborough).

  13. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 01/30/2007 at 4:53 PM #

    “Don’t blame the lawyers for suing…”

    I blame lawyers for spending millions every year to prevent tort reforms and legislators (many of which are lawyers) passing laws allowing lawsuits and judges (also lawyers) for allowing the awards to go forward. So yes, I blame the John Edwards far more than the person that was injured for getting what is allowed by the law.

  14. Gene 01/30/2007 at 4:55 PM #

    The university obviously sees the need to form partnerships w/ corporations as it pertains to research and development – and that’s played a key role in the Centenial campus. However, what’s missing is an effort to create a tangible feeling of being a student or visitor at NC State.

    From knowing some professors in the UNC System, though none teach at NCSU, I think there is a big push for schools in the UNC system to retain top faculty – not the best teachers, but the guys who do the most high profile research / get the big grants. To do this getting partnerships with business is a big plus, it helps get research money into the universities, which helps attract top shelf professors, which enhances the national reputation of the university, which gets more attention, more money, more top-shelf professors, and so on.

    The Undergrad experience seems to be an after thought in this.

    I don’t know how many of you still live in raleigh but downtown/glenwood south have definately picked up a lot of the slack in the bar/nightclub department

    I live in New Jersey, but still have family and friends in Wake Co. and do try and keep up a bit about what’s going on there and I know the city of Raleigh invested heavily to get the downtown area growing, such as as re-opening Fayetville St. to commuter traffic, building museums in downtown Raleigh etc. The Glenwood area has been building up for years, and I doubt you could sustain the development there, unless the city of Raleigh went along with what the developers wanted. These areas adjoin NCSU’s Campus, but the city of Raleigh seems to not want to invest any serious effort into getting the adjoining NCSU area to be economically vibrant again.

    I was really stunned at how run down Hillsborough Street had become

    The change in the parking rules really really really hit Hillsborough street hard. The city of Raleigh has done nothing to off-set the loss to business on Hillsborough street. It’s a shame.

    I started seeing it my senior year.

    as a mid-late 70’s grad

    Lowering the drinking age to 18 would bring a lot of those good times back, but it’s not going to happen 🙁

  15. packpigskinfan23 01/30/2007 at 5:10 PM #

    wow… campus is horrible now. I am currently sitting in my room on the corner of Gorman and Western. NOBODY hangs out here. there is no reason to hang out here. there is nowhere to go and have a good time that is in walking distance. I hear all these things about how great NCSU used to be and it makes me sick to see how it has fallen apart. Hillsborough St is empty on most week nights, and not too lively at all on the weekends. East Village draws a crowd, but other than that I think most students are waiting for The Farm House to reopen. The Brewery NEVER has great shows anymore. freaking KORN and The Deftones played there!!!! Brothers is gone. a little place called Melvins is there now. they sell burgers and close at 8pm. OH! and the worst part…. next door is a FUCKING CEREAL RESTRAUNT!!!! it is closed on the weekends as far as I know.

    I know ONE of you guys out there has got to have enough money to invest in Darryls!!!!!! that place looks like it was awesome back in the day!

    I never really thought about why Hillsborough was so run down. The parking situation is an abomination. in the 3 years I have been around NCSU campus I have personally had my car towed twice, my girlfreinds once, and a buddy of mines has been towed twice. there are about 3 spaces per buisness. I do think the turnabouts that they are trying to build will help. I heard once person ask something to the sorts of “well how is that going to allow for the 9000 cars that pass thru during rush hour to make it thru?!” Who the hell said they had to come thru there?!?! western can support all that traffic!!! if hillsborough had LESS thru traffic then it would be able to support the people who come there for buisness. but that still dosnt stop the parking issue. if they make the turnabouts then they take the parking off the side of the road. at least that is my understanding.

    me and my lady visited Chapel Hill(her first time there in YEARS) a couple weekends ago for a concert and it upset her to see how much they had going on.

  16. Gene 01/30/2007 at 5:26 PM #

    me and my lady visited Chapel Hill(her first time there in YEARS) a couple weekends ago for a concert and it upset her to see how much they had going on.

    I remember when the Cat’s Cradle moved to Carrboro. The folks in Chapel Hill were miffed. I don’t think anyone would care if The Brewery closed or moved.

    The level of apathy the city of Raleigh displays to the NCSU area is saddening.

  17. CarnifeX 01/30/2007 at 5:30 PM #

    There is some legislation (and some money put away, supposedly) to renovate Hillsborough St.

    There are plans to replace all stoplights with roundabouts and to turn the street to 2 lanes (keeping parking on the sides).

    A couple good articles outlining the hillsborough drama as well as some other raleigh development drama (read: Dix)

    http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A42824

    http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A43157

  18. packpigskinfan23 01/30/2007 at 5:35 PM #

    I never really knew that the Cats Cradle was farther into Chapel Hill. I love that place.

    I would go crazy if The Brewery closed…. I mean, if with its weak schedule I have FAR too many memories there. most from the past, but some that were made just a few nights ago. I think they changed owners and now they only want touring bands and bands directly FROM the triangle area. A friends band was going to open up for a band from Raliegh, but was told they couldnt play(after playing there 2 times already) because they were from Goldsboro… not RDU.

  19. choppack1 01/30/2007 at 5:37 PM #

    Andy – You see the hopping bar scene is the perfect example of a loss of campus identity.

    I’ve been to those bars – they don’t have a college or NC State feel – they have the feel of similar spots in Atlanta, the suburbs of DC, Charlotte, and too many other cities to mention. But what if you’re a State student? You’ve got to take a cab just to get to this place.

    If you want to see what a college downtown feels like – go to Clemson, Blacksburg, Chapel Hill, or Charlottesville.

    NC State has a lot of things against it – what it doesn’t need is someone like Stafford applying draconian measures to what little it does have going for it. The camp out, the tailgating restrictions and Wolfstock are little things which could help retain some identity and connection between the students/alumni and the university. The person who is in his position should be doing everything in his power to insure that the collegiate experience is something unique and special. When I was at State I was lucky, we experienced Hillsborough Streets last gasp – Mitch’s, Player’s Retreat, Sadilack’s, Barry’s, Brother’s and 2 Guys were still around. We even saw the emergence of Pantana Bob’s, East Village, Spike’s, and the Cantina…We went to Hillsborough Street to celebrate big wins.

    In essence, State’s a victim of it’s own growth and it’s own growth plan. Since much of the growth has taken place on the other side of Western Blvd in both housing and university development.

    As I stated earlier, the university obviously understood the need for corporate involvement in the Centennial Center – and they’ve certainly created the wolfline which crosses the “demarcation line” where NC State ends and apartment city begins. Gene makes a good point about the parking – but the development environment must be friendly as well.

    How do the UT’s do it?

  20. choppack1 01/30/2007 at 5:47 PM #

    Thanks Carnife X – here’s a dandy from the first article you linked:

    “that while he remains confident about NCSU’s “strong commitment” to the partnership, as long as university leaders are “tentative” about their plans, and in particular their plans for North Hall, the council will continue to “hesitate” about the street improvements.

    Answering him, NCSU’s chief architect Michael Harwood pleaded for patience, saying the university is deep in study about what to do not just with North Hall but the Brooks Avenue site as well. “But we need to get it right,” he said, adding, “These discussions are not well-conducted in the newspapers.”

    You see folks – here is the problem. Something like this requires leadership and probably some tough decisions. What we’re getting is the worse kind of leadership – a refusal to commit which holds up ANY ACTION.

    I hope Oblinger read this and I hope it bothers him that these articles imply a large reason why Hillsborough Street remains crappy is because of the bureaucrats at the University.

  21. packpigskinfan23 01/30/2007 at 5:47 PM #

    Players Retreat-still here, but an “old man hang out”

    the Cantina- just closed a few months ago, The Farm House is moving there. should still be fun. GREAT pizza. CHEAP beer.

  22. mex367 01/30/2007 at 5:47 PM #

    The Traditions State still had when I came in in 97

    Lawn Party
    Pig Stock
    Brent Road
    Campout
    and BBall games at Reynolds

    All of them were gone by the time I graduated 5 years later. Pretty much all we were left with was football tailgates and Greek Week if you were in a fraternity

  23. packpigskinfan23 01/30/2007 at 5:48 PM #

    FarmHouse=best subs around

  24. class of 74 01/30/2007 at 5:56 PM #

    Every school has grown and expanded over time but Duke has played in the same stadiums for over 70+ years and UNC has a football stadium over 70 years old and their three gyms are within walking distance of each other and walking distance from the dorms. Can you imagine if Reynolds had been rebuilt and the football stadium had stayed on campus? Don’t ever underestimate the advantage of having on campus arenas. Only a handful of kids went to the frats and sororities but everyone goes to the football and basketball games during their school careers! The wonderful athletic facilities we now have lack the key ingredient of all of the great experience schools, location!

  25. whitefang 01/30/2007 at 6:22 PM #

    I think this discussion is right on about what NC State has become contasting to what is was when this old man was there in the 2nd half of the 70’s. And I think it affects everything about State including athletics, academics, etc. I hate to say it, but it HAS to attract a different kind of student these days too. Not necessarily worse, but different.
    I have said it here before, but my kids did not want to go there even though they grew up State fans, their grandmother lived on Glenwood when they were younger, and they went to a lot of games there over the years. It held no charm for them. Too institutional is a word I heard one of them say.
    The 2 college age ones I have ended up at UVa, but really thought hard about schools like UNC, Old Miss and even W&L. They are great students, but very “social” and they wanted to hear about Greek life and stuff like that. Hell State wants to get rid of frats. UVa and W&L promote them along with other social things during tours, etc. And last I looked they still rate pretty high academically.

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