Tarheel Football Search Very Relevant to State

The UNC-Chapel Hill coaching search has the potential to be very interesting. It also has the potential to be very boring. Regardless of the amount of public fireworks that the search creates, NC State fans need to be very clear on the fact that Carolina’s search for a football coach is extremely relevant to Chuck Amato and NC State’s football program.

I saw a quote on an NC State message board yesterday that made one of those matter-of-fact, overly-confident, sound-byte-like statement that went something like, “We don’t need to worry about Carolina. We need to worry about Florida State and Virginia Tech. We compete with these programs for where we want to be.”

I just couldn’t believe the supidity. How the hell are we supposed to try to compete with the top programs in the ACC and country without top players? How does someone who can type not inherently understand this from the beginning? The better Carolina’s coach, then the better Carolina’s program becomes. The better Carolina’s program, then the more talent they can lure and the more effective that their talent will be used on the field. It isn’t really rocket science.

The barriers to success faced by local football programs are large enough on their own without adding a better coach to the mix. These issues have been well chronicled in the past – there just aren’t enough local players available to support our programs; so, the better the alternative programs become, the more difficult State’s mission of winning becomes. Dave Glenn’s research shows:

Here’s the breakdown of how many Division I-A signees the traditional ACC states produce on an annual basis, relative to the number of I-A programs in the state: Georgia 75 (150 signees, two teams) prospects per school, Florida 50 (350/7), Virginia 25 (50/2), Maryland 20 (40/2), South Carolina 20 (40/2), North Carolina 12 (60/5). Here’s the breakdown when you limit the same numbers to only BCS-conference teams: Florida 87 (350/4) per school, Georgia 75 (150/2), Maryland 40 (40/1), Virginia 25 (50/2), South Carolina 20 (40/2), North Carolina 15 (60/4).

Think about it this way — if Carolina was coached by someone other than Carl Torbush and John Bunting the last nine years, then there is chance that players like Levar Fisher, Bryan Peterson, Mario Williams, Manny Lawson, AJ Davis, Scott Kooistra, Sean Locklear, TA McLendon, Tank Tyler, Toney Baker, Andre Brown, Leroy Harris, Curtis Crouch and dozens of others could have never worn an NC State uniform. Exactly how is NC State supposed to compete with FSU and VPI…or anyone for that matter…without that caliber of player?

I was going to more develop these thoughts more deeply here today, but as I was surfing the internet this morning I saw where the Red & White From State had done such an excellent job developing the points that it makes much more sense for me to direct you to their great comments.

NC State fans should be watching the events unfolding within the Carolina football program closely. Not only could the fortunes of UNC football drastically change with the right new coach, but it could also affect the Wolfpack too, and in some unpleasant ways.

By any measure, the Wolfpack has been a mediocre football program since the graduation of Philip Rivers. State has gone an unremarkable 15-15 in that time, with an ACC record of eight wins against twelve losses.* Several of the wins Amato has posted were against inferior 1-AA or non-BCS competition, which effectively should remove those victories from serious consideration when pondering the arc of the Amato-led program. In short, a program once labeled as “on the rise�? has not only stopped rising, it is clearly treading water in the record books.

So what does UNC have to do with any of this? Aside from contributing two of those losses in the post-Rivers era, UNC is also a close neighbor school that often competes for the same players as does NC State. Division 1 college football, more than any of the major college sports, relies on in-state or regional talent as its lifeblood. Only certain schools can recruit nationally, and those schools are the elite in the game: Notre Dame, Southern Cal, a few others. For the NC States and the UNCs of the world, they live and die by the commitments they gain from players who grew up relatively near the schools. That in mind, a coaching change at UNC can indeed affect NC State’s fortunes, which in the post-Rivers era are markedly spotty at best.

State is, of course, an excellent choice in its own right and offers many of the same positives that UNC does. It also has one thing that Carolina cannot currently offer, and that is a large amount of fan support for the football program. Amato does (and should) proudly point to the people in grandstands as being largely responsible for many of the enhancements the stadium has undergone the past five years. They put their money where their mouths are, and bought into the dream of a first-class football program – to the tune of perhaps $25,000,000, collectively. Those fans show up every week and display and incredible amount of very loud passion for their team. Some may say that Wolfpack fans are over-demanding, but the reality of that is that State’s fans want best efforts and are loathe to settle for anything less. Amato can and should point that out to high schoolers, and they can see this for themselves in Raleigh on official visits.

Just for the reason of recruiting alone, it’s going to get very interesting around here soon, and what happens in Chapel Hill may go a long way to determining what happens here in Raleigh. So keep your eye on what goes on in Chapel Hill.

Please keep this entry in mind when you log onto SFN in the future and see us talking about Carolina a little more than we have in the past.

I will leave you with a related entry from 850TheBuzz’ titled Strange Days in Chapel Hill. The article is a hub for some of the best, relevant links out there today.

General NCS Football

49 Responses to Tarheel Football Search Very Relevant to State

  1. legacyman 10/24/2006 at 3:24 PM #

    unc-ch has historically grabbed more of the better players in NC than we have but once Chuck came that slowed and we actually got some really top players such as Mario, etc.

    We will always attract our “kind” of player based on our football program and our coaches, fans, etc. unc-ch will always attract their “kind” of players based on their longer history and their basketball success/national attention.

    Our program should not be predicated on what unc-ch does…only on beating them and everyone else possible. Nothing more.

  2. Tarheel86 10/24/2006 at 3:45 PM #

    While its true that NC State’s program should not be “predicated� on what does or does not happen in Chapel Hill, the reality they will be competing against each other for in state talent. NCSU basketball is not “predicated� on UNC basketball, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that with Roy being in Chapel Hill makes NC State’s desired level of success harder to attain.

    Bottom line is this: UNC is bad at football, but NCSU is not that much better. It’s ridiculous for NC State fans to think that UNC could not establish a consistently top-25 football program. The Rams Club can outspend most university boosters clubs…UNC has the “brand name� and the facilities to have the same potential. While it is true that UNC fans (especially football) are somewhat lame as a whole, I would argue that this is not as huge an obstacle to establishing a football program as many on this forum purport (Miami seems to do just fine). I grew up in Raleigh and have spent many a Saturday in a half-empty Carter-Finley football stadium. However, something happened to generate excitement in Raleigh about football. It took many years before the Wolfpack Club decided that they not only wanted more than mediocrity, but that they would pay for it. Perhaps dismissing Bunting midseason indicates the same changing of mentality in Chapel Hill. Be rest assured that a winning football team in Chapel Hill will fill the 65,000 seats in Kenan no problem. The real obstacle for good football in Chapel Hill is Dick Baddour. Like Fowler, he needs to go.

  3. partialqualifier 10/24/2006 at 4:12 PM #

    First of all let me say that my rant wasn’t directed solely at SFN or any individual person. I love SFN and the opportunity it provides those of us who love the Pack to discuss the issues relevant to our great university…or at least the athletic side of the school…LOL! I appreciate greatly the opportunity to participate here…thank you.

    To Jeff: At the end of the day I agree with you.

    I have been a State fan my entire life. With the exception of a few years most of that time I have had to make excuse after excuse for the Pack athletic department. I am tired of doing that. I feel that the strides made in the facilities, fan support, and in the football program as a whole we should be able to compete head to head with most schools in the country. When I say compete….I’m not neccessarily talking wins and losses. I was mainly saying that 7 years ago how many starters did we have that could have started for FSU, Miami, Va Tech, or any other top 10 school? Now we have several. In fact some of those schools would love to have some of the guys we got. That hasn’t produced the wins we all want and the reasons for that are up for debate. But at the end of the day we have shown that with the things we currently have in place we can get comparative talent to most schools in the country. That was not the case 7 years ago. We should have enough things in place to be able to hold our own no matter who UNC gets as their coach. If we cannot, then there are very serious problems at NC State. As I was also saying…if we have to rely on UNC to have a terrible coach in order for us to win ball games….then maybe all of us need to step back and re-evaluate our expectations of NC State football. Maybe this is as good as it gets for us. Maybe the best we can do is 5-7, 6-6, 7-5….with the once a decade 8 or 9 win season.

    Redfred….thanks for the humor. I agree that in some ways we have blown an opportunity to bury the Heels, but honestly NC State has made a lot of progress that makes UNC fans a little nervous. But yes, we could have done more.

    Finally, I am neither defending Amato nor criticizing him. Factually speaking tho our program is in better shape than any time in memory. With any kind of offense we would have at least 5 wins and maybe 6 right now. I don’t believe for one second that we are at the mercy of UNC’s hiring practices to be competitive. Hiring Spurrier at SC really hurt Tommy Bowden. Hiring Al Groh really hurt Frank Beamer. Hiring Marc Richt really hurt Chan Gailey. The bottom line is those schools were not hurt because they had their s**t together. It’s time we got our s**t together at NC State.

  4. chilly water 10/24/2006 at 4:18 PM #

    what happens if state loses 11/18, for god sakes think of the children!

  5. Rick 10/24/2006 at 4:28 PM #

    I have about accepted the fact that we will just not have a great team ever.
    Amato is one of the better coaches in our history but he cannot seem to get ovet that hump. How do you justify getting rid of him? I am just not sure.
    It seems if we just had better dscipline we would win many more games but yet we never seem to be able to develop it.
    Very frustrating.

  6. old13 10/24/2006 at 4:51 PM #

    Maybe ol’ Bob Lee has something relavant here (see discussion of CTC):

    http://swaggersays.com/RunScript.asp?page=45&Article_ID=343&AR=AR&p=ASP\~Pg45.asp

  7. redfred2 10/24/2006 at 5:12 PM #

    partial

    I agree with all you mention regarding improvements talent wise and also with the facilities. I think think I give CA more credit there than most in those areas, especially for bringing in the excitement and getting the backers on board. I also want him to make it work as badly as anyone. The “but” comes when there is a major flaw within, something that no one outside the program can quite put their finger on. It is ultimately the responsibilty of the Head Coach to make the neccessary adjustments. The problem is that he either not searching for answers and stubbornly headed down the same path without either improving the old, or expriementing with constant change. Or could it be that he is too close and can’t see it, and possibly the only road block to further overall progress for the program is his own management style.

    Overall and positive attempts can be made with this whole staff still in place, assistants may be helpful in determining where the problems lie. But only if they are given the right to speak out, and even then, only one person has the authority to make the changes.

    I may be barking up the wrong tree as far as the ability to speak out, but there is a fundamental problem somewhere, that is not being addressed by the Head Coach himself.

  8. Cardiff Giant 10/24/2006 at 6:06 PM #

    This may be as alarming to him as to me, but I agree with Rick re the frustration. Given Amato won’t change, apparently, it may be time to get rid of him and – sigh – start over.

  9. redfred2 10/24/2006 at 6:32 PM #

    Cardiff

    Well, it’s not like we don’t already know about unyielding and unwilling.

    UNyielding as in heads coaches, and UNwilling as in AD’s.

    I don’t see any change coming from either, and that is the UNfortunate part for us.

  10. old13 10/24/2006 at 6:42 PM #

    Maybe it’s time for a “Fire Oblinger” campaign!

  11. vtpackfan 10/24/2006 at 7:12 PM #

    Watching closely, but I haven’t seen enough off Amatos plan to finally leave the friendly Florida hunting grounds to be truly convinced that another Hole head coach would make things different. I like NC prep football and I hope Amato can continue making strides in recruiting the Mario’s, and Andre’s that abound. I would have liked to be in a better position for Chris Leak, but that is water under the bridge. The Florida campaign is so methodical. I know it produces the type of players Chuck thinks he want (the type that get really excited to play FSU and then get undisciplined all over the rest of the schedule), and who could blame him for trying his hand at something he was crafting for 18 years before he showed up at Raleigh. What about PA? Isn’t he from Easton, and should’nt he atleat try to get some OL and LB’s that are passed on by Big Ten schools who opt for the MAC and then go on to beat us on our own turf. I saw that we a recruiting a LB from Ohio and that is good news. Ohio has turned into what PA used to be for produsing outstanding, disciplined young talent.
    All I’m saying is that if things don’t drastically change course we might have an easier time filling in thoughts on this thread if Bowden, Coker, or Urban got fired since that is who we are competing against for the bulk of out recruits.

  12. McPete 10/24/2006 at 7:22 PM #

    Rick:
    Don’t accept that we cannot ever have a great team, because we can. We can with Coach Amato at the helm. We’ve had excellent talent on both sides of the ball, but not always at the same time (think of a redshirt senior Rivers on the ’04 team).

    I think we can be a great team if we have the talent to execute the offensive and defensive philosophies we already have in place. On offense, a quarterback who makes quick and smart decisions and use the west coast offense to its full potential. Receivers that run crisp routes. An o-line thats, well, much better than what we have now. I think (as well as most here) that the o-line is our major flaw right now. We may already have the quarterback on campus (Evans, Burke, or Beck). We may or may not have the receivers yet. Trestman’s offense is a work in progress, but if we have the talent on that side of the ball, we’ll be fine. Look at what Callahan has done at Nebraska in a short time.

    On defense, have we ever been more talent rich? Amato said at the beginning of his tenure here that the biggest difference between nc state and fsu was not 1-22, but 23-85. We have another great young defense in the making, though young. We have an aggressive philosophy that’ll dominate once experience catches up with raw talent.

    And the signees on defense fit the philosophy of what Amato wants to do on defense. We haven’t had enough consistency with the OC position to recruit and develop the talent that fits what Trestman wants to do. But if it happens (and i for one think it will), NC State won’t be worrying too much about who UNC is trying to hire as its 3rd head coach in 10 years.

  13. BorntoHowl 10/24/2006 at 7:42 PM #

    NC State had a true sense of direction when Amato played, when Lou Holtz was at the helm, and when Sheridan was at the controls. When Chuck came he effectively used the building program to get recruits to come flocking in. He was fortunate enough to have PR, that once in a generation player that brings everyone up to his level. That’s what you look for in a coach especially at the college level as the players are such short timers.

    Philip’s gone and so is Norm Chow and Doc Holiday. The building is complete. The stands are full. But there’s something missing. What is it? Chuck has an enormous ego. IMO you must have one on that magnitude to be successful, but his gets in his way of his aspirations. He’s made some progress, but the consequence of his ego has caught up with him, and we’re much closer to the bottom now than we are to the top.

    Right now we have three problems that stand out above the others: 1) We’re missing a recruiting coordinator of Doc’s caliber, 2) We have an OC that for some unknown reason refuses to take the talent available and score some points on Saturday, and 3) a team that can play above their collective individual talent when called on with emotion and desire when needed for a critical game.

    Right now I really don’t know if Stone was our problem at all. Evidence is now pointing toward Trestman. He can’t seem to stay in the game. The defense makes an adjustment, and we flounder for the rest of the game. The talent appears to be here, yet we can’t seem to develop and exploit the mismatches as the game develops to win.

    Chuck’s in charge, its his show, and the last 3 years are seriously Mike O’cainesque. Maybe the threat of a Butch Davis kind of guy next door will force the necessary changes. Benefit is not gained without taking some risk. Chuck’s philosophy of playing down to the level of the competition to be in a position to win is the definition of mediocrity.

    The administration is in pretty sad shape and will be unwilling to make any changes, so our only chance is for Chuck to change. I hope for State’s sake he can do it.

  14. legacyman 10/24/2006 at 8:27 PM #

    Born and others have some good points and legitimate concerns as most of us do but the question remains as to what should be done. I totally agree that an ever changing assistants corps has been a killer but that is the price of progress. Chuck had to quickly put together a staff and he called upon close friends and associates to fashion the list as did Sidney when he was recently tabbed to revibve our basketball program.

    Many long for the return of Chow to run the offense but he initially came for a short period and lived in a hotel while he was here…commuting to visit his family in Utah…the man is a west coast person and he did us a favor by staying for that year or whatever time he was here. He left for a bigger paycheck and the west coast. Doc Holliday was, I believe, a great recruiter but he left for a bigger program and a bigger paycheck and the hiring school probably was trying to stem the flow of Fl players to us.

    We are not at the stage where we can outbid major SEC schools for coaches, not yet.

    I am still a strong supporter of what Chuck is trying to accomplish. He has a young team, especially on D since the NFL raided our ranks. Youthful teams are prone to make mistakes and take penalties. The O also makes their share of mistakes and Daniel’s two interceptions proved that he is a young man and is human but he will keep improving.

    Regardless of the W/L record, I will continue to warm my football and basketball LTR seats as long as I can get to the games and can still breathe. I look forward to Sidney getting us back and for Chuck to continue to build us beyond where we have ever gone.

    I wish both coaches a lot of luck and thank them for their hard work.

  15. redfred2 10/24/2006 at 8:38 PM #

    We had one hell of a start off the line, but now we’re barely keeping up and trapped in the median, sputtering and coughing along as major decisions happen quickly, and lane changes occur all around us. We’re still traveling the straight and narrow with outdated drivers at the wheel, who have their own outdated maps that will get us where they want to be and to their ultimate destinations. That is, whoops, right here, where we already are. They’ve hired lots of people who don’t seem to have a clue either, and seem to have more pressing issues than doing their actual work or any navigation anyway. They can’t even watch and try to immulate others traveling the same road.

    Yep, just barreling right along with ol’ grandpa at the wheel, puffing blue smoke at a snails pace, stuck in the now football cul-de-sac to nowhere, formerly known (before Swofford) as the mighty tobacco road.

  16. redfred2 10/24/2006 at 9:33 PM #

    ^That rumbling fairy tale was about the overall leadership of the university, not the football program.

  17. brown pelican 10/24/2006 at 9:54 PM #

    our identity as a football program—like our basketball program—should relish and meet the challenge that unc and others have to offer—when holtz ‘got us good’ in the 70’s he eclipsed bill dooley—dick sheridan regularly beat mack brown like a drum—both coaches made their rep early by beating unc—we must establish ourselves consistently as the best in the state before we can seek regional and national recognition—clemson is in the process of doing that now here in south carolina to the old ball coach—let’s stay the course and see if we can develop a staff that will stay and develop this great recruiting talent that we have amassed

  18. Wolfpack4ever 10/24/2006 at 10:37 PM #

    redfred Says, “Yep, just barreling right along with ol’ grandpa at the wheel, puffing blue smoke at a snails pace, stuck in the now football cul-de-sac to nowhere, formerly known (before Swofford) as the mighty tobacco road.”

    That’s pretty prose, red, but I think you took a little poetic license with the “football cul-de-sac/mighty tobacco road” linkage. Mighty tobacco road was in reference to Basketball, not Football. But good stuff none the less.

    In an earlier post you said, “I may be barking up the wrong tree as far as the ability to speak out, but there is a fundamental problem somewhere, that is not being addressed by the Head Coach himself.” You must have written this before happy hour. This could be the most inciteful look at the source of NCSU’s football struggles.

    This or something in this vein reasonably explains how we fail to win with the athletes we have. BobLee Swagger, as is mentioned above, fingers Chuck as having the fundamental shortcoming that was at the source of Buntings failure — peer management.

    My only real disagreement with what you say is “fundamental problem somewhere, that is not being addressed by the Head Coach himself.” It is truly rare when a fundamental problem is addressed by the person having the problem. Being fundamental, the problem is a “blind spot” for the person. In BLS generous words on this subject, he pointed out that HE would have had the same problem.

    The problem is correctable even at Chuck’s age — we certainly have the money to hire professionals, i.e., consultants, who deal with these issues successfully. But like other problems of this ilk, there is a prerequisite for success. The senior manager needs to be willing to be coached.

    With what we have here at NCSU — facilities, fans, players and a very attractive academics — I am hoping for the easy way out. Easy way out would be for Chuck to look deeply and see what redfred sees. Or as another great philosopher said, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

    Our AD may have done all it is said he did, and be all he is accused of being but if he affects change here, he should be awarded AD of the century. And, no, I’m not holding my breath.

  19. BobLee 10/25/2006 at 11:12 AM #

    Its kinda sad to see the Amato & Bunting Show end its 6 year run. It won’t be the same regardless of who we hire.

    The comparisons tween Chuck and John were so obvious … both alum LBs and both rookie HCs … and both overflowing w/ lampoonable eccentricities … and neither very savvy about the media.

    You guys will come up with an unflattering nickname for our new guy, as we would for yours … but I doubt our new guy will make it so easy for you.

    I expect we’ll get a “Sheridan-type” who will be hard to hate.

    BobLee

  20. RAWFS 10/25/2006 at 11:22 AM #

    “Youthful teams are prone to make mistakes and take penalties.”

    How long has Darrell Blackman been in the program, exactly?

  21. brown pelican 10/25/2006 at 9:02 PM #

    boblee—whoever gets a sheridan type can count their blessings at the outset and their wins later—he did more with less than anyone in the acc at his time—current day comparison?—the obvious—coach grobe @ wake who whips us regularly

  22. Packaholic1 10/26/2006 at 8:25 AM #

    I bet the holes don’t try another NFL guy.

  23. highstick 10/26/2006 at 10:24 PM #

    Ye of little faith! Barring a Va Tech collapse in the final quarter, the Clempson Dynasty this year is over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They’ve got at least two more losses in them this year if Chuck and Spurrier figure it out!

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