Would Herb have left NC State THIS month?

General NCS Basketball79

Playing the “what-if” game can sometimes be dangerous, but we’re a blog…so, why not play what-if sometimes?

SFN ran across a story today that made us ask “what-if?” in regards to Herb Sendek and his tenure at NC State. Nebraska’s Head Basketball Coach, Barry Collier, has accepted the Athletics Directorship position at his alma mater, Butler. (For a great related SFN entry, please click here.)

This is interesting because there was a lot of speculation that Coach Sendek was a top candidate for the Nebraska job 6 years ago when Collier was hired and when the pressure was (justifiably) mounting on Sendek after four consecutive seasons of failing to make an NCAA appearance at NC State. In fact, a friend of Sendek once shared with a member of SFN that when the pressure was frustrating Herb a couple of years ago (after a few NCAA Tourney appearances), Sendek had quipped, “I should have taken the Nebraska job”. So, legimitate reason exists for us to think that Sendek would have entertained thoughts of Lincoln, Nebraska again.

“What-if” Herb had not taken the Arizona State job? Would he have bitten at the Nebraska job this time around? Would it have been too close to the start of the 2006-2007 academic year? Certainly Nebraska would have had MORE interest in Herb in 2006, after 5 consecutive NCAA appearances, than they did in 2000 after 4 consecutive NIT appearances. Nebraska, from a basketball sense, is in no worse shape than Arizona State, and can at least boast about being the only game in town in the state of Nebraska.

How would Cedric Simmons’ departure and the likelihood that Andrew Brackman may give up basketball have impacted Sendek? NC State’s 06-07 roster would look exactly the same except for two freshmen (Dan Werner and Larry Davis), and Sendek was never one to rely on freshman for playing time.

How would this “what-if” have impacted Werner and Davis? Herb leaving in August would have not given those two much time to look for other programs. The scholarships they took at Florida and Seton Hall in May would surely not have been available in August.

And more importantly, how would Lee Fowler have conducted a coaching search in August? Would he just have promoted an assistant on an interim basis, or conducted a full blown search for a permanent replacment, knowing the start of the season is a mere 2 1/2 months away? Similarly, it will be interesting to see how Nebraska AD, Steve Peterson handles finding a replacement. Andy Katz has blogged about the situation at Nebraska for ESPN Premium members.

Nevada’s Mark Fox could have a major dilemma if a phone call comes from Nebraska about the Cornhuskers’ now-open men’s basketball job.

This isn’t a new dilemma for coaches like Fox. Do you go to a school that is one of the tougher jobs in the Big 12 that probably pays significantly more money in a conference that can put upwards of six teams in the NCAA Tournament in a given year? Or do you stay put where you know you have a great shot to make a run in the NCAAs?

If Herb had not taken the ASU job, it is SFN’s opinion that he would have seriously gone after this Big 12 position, even with the August timeframe. What do you think?

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General NCS Basketball

79 Responses to Would Herb have left NC State THIS month?

  1. Wulfpack 08/04/2006 at 9:47 AM #

    Glen Subhop54, I am sorry to report to you my criticism of Amato is, fairly or unfairly, harsh. Some may call me a hypocrite (in favoring Sendek over Chuck). But my thought process begins with the anecdotal evidence I have been provided from a booster who is friendly with many assistants suggesting that Chuck is a really ‘tough’ (I could use many other words here — but I’ll keep it PG) guy to work for who is tremendously inflexible.

    Of course, it’s much easier to form my own opinion of him when I continuously watch a team shoot itself in the foot time after time after time — a team with talent that hasn’t shown an ounce of improvement in recent years.

  2. cfpack03 08/04/2006 at 9:59 AM #

    If we want to play ‘what-if’, let’s play for real. What if Lee Fowler terminates Sendek’s employment in 2001?

    (if this was discussed already, forgive me. I didn’t take the time to read above.)

  3. tractor57 08/04/2006 at 10:48 AM #

    I really appreciate what Herb did for the program (it was really in the dumper when he came) but I think he made a good decision to move to ASU.
    Would he leave during the summer? That I don’t know.
    In my view we really need to address the REAL problem – it would be nice to have a REAL AD.

  4. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 10:52 AM #

    Wulf,

    “Of course, it’s much easier to form my own opinion of him when I continuously watch a team shoot itself in the foot time after time after time — a team with talent that hasn’t shown an ounce of improvement in recent years.”

    LUMP statement. That all fits in one neat and clean little bag, football and basketball-wise. Too bad you refuse to see both programs in the same objective light.

  5. cfpack03 08/04/2006 at 11:08 AM #

    no swings on that hanging curve? What if Lee Fowler terminates Sendek’s employment in 2001? With sendek out of raleigh after 5 unsuccessful years, we hire Rick Barnes as new coach of NC State basketball and move on to redemption and unparalleled victories.
    Regardless of the what-ifs, I’m insanely happy about Lowe and look forward to supporting him at every opportunity

    In my view we really need to address the REAL problem – it would be nice to have a REAL AD.
    great point.

  6. Cardiff Giant 08/04/2006 at 11:36 AM #

    Someone referenced what the real remaining problem is: Sendek is gone, but Lee Fowler remains. 🙂

  7. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 12:41 PM #

    Herb is gone, and for good reason. We have spent hours and hours already on the AD back during the coaching search. I don’t anything can be accomplished until some hint of dissatisfaction comes from within, at the university itself. No signs of that anywhere.

    Either way, there will probably be someone out there defending him after he walks away and abandons this mess that he was instrumental in creating. We already know he won’t be fired, so someone will be forced to pick up the banner and defend him saying that he was never given a fair shake. That would be considering his unfair treatment by the fans of course.

  8. cfpack03 08/04/2006 at 1:00 PM #

    We need to set LF up with a certain escort service from Durham

  9. PBdafan 08/04/2006 at 1:28 PM #

    Sideny just got finished reading all these comments about a guy who delivered 5 straight NCAA appearances and immediately asked LF for more time on his contract. I understand he just got a sixth year added. Hopefully that will be enough.

  10. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 2:38 PM #

    The decline that occured during the Les Robinson era was just five years removed from the greatness of a national powerhouse in the world of college basketball. The not too distant connections to the past were all still alive and well, with winning attitudes still in tact and high hopes for the future when Herbert Sendek arrived at NCSU. Two years pasted and program deteoration was halted, but none of the greatest was ever held in high regard, or ever even mentioned as a possibility again, and none of of that not too distant greatness was ever recaptured.

    A lot of water has pasted under the bridge since those grander days and all but a few of us true die-hards have just accepted our plight as inevitable. The opportunity to reconnect with that great program of the past has pasted us by. Twenty years has all but removed everything but the slighest glimmer of hope and the confidence that NC State had earned in itself over the previous fifty years of great basketball accomplishments faded away.

    It will be a monumental task for anyone to right this ship now. I’m afraid that that great history may have deteriorated beyond all repair. Especially while there is a crew working frantically on the deck of a rudderless ship, with no directions coming from a captain who is sleeping peacefully at the wheel.

  11. class of 74 08/04/2006 at 2:39 PM #

    Just a shame when HS left town he didn’t take some of his fans with him, and LF too!

  12. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 2:43 PM #

    Proof read damnit. I keep telling myself, but I never do.

  13. Rick 08/04/2006 at 3:45 PM #

    Agreed 74
    When he was here I can understand some wanting to support him because he was the coach. But now that he has gone, I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone would continue propping up his meager, meager accomplishments.

  14. Wulfpack 08/04/2006 at 5:19 PM #

    “Meager”? Let’s see, he inherits a program that was the laughing stock of the ACC, a program that had a hard hard time finishing EIGHTH in the league, turns it around the right way, lands top level talent and delivers FIVE, yes that’s FIVE consecutive NCAA tourney appearances, and his accomplishments in this all so competitive ACC are “meager”? We are clearly seeing two different pictures here. I don’t know how else to explain it other than this has to be the most ungrateful, disallusioned fanbase in the land. If you want “meager” results, why don’t you become a Clemson fan, or a UVA fan, or an FSU fan, or a VT fan, or a Miami fan, or a GT fan, or a Wake fan, or whatever else. I simply do not get it. I see absolutely no evidence that his tenure at NC State was “meager”, considering the crap he had to clean up when he arrived in Raleigh. And if your answer is his pitiful record against Duke and UNC, well then all other head coaches in the ACC and in the NCAA are “meager” as well.

  15. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 6:12 PM #

    This is an earlier comment from another thread, but it works just as well here.

    ^All aboard!!! The little choo choo that thought it could is loading!!!

    right on schedule…….to fantasy land………as usual

  16. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 6:32 PM #

    “We are clearly seeing two different pictures here.”

    Things do seem to appear clearer without the handicap of tunnel vision.

    “considering the crap he had to clean up when he arrived in Raleigh.”

    Has that broken record been skipping in your mind for the whole ten years that Herb Sendek was in Raleigh. That is sad since the actual work for Herb didn’t take but two years to accomplish.

    All of anything you’ve ever mentioned about HERBERT SENDEK on this site just boils down to the fact that in your opinion HERB SENDEK was a better coach than Les Robinson and he overshadowed Les’ five years. The man who was reluctantly filling in at a job no one wanted at the time and when his alma mater was having difficulties.

    THAT IS IT. Nothing more, nothing less. (pardon the pun)

  17. Wulfpack 08/04/2006 at 6:36 PM #

    ^Maybe you ought to look yourself in the mirror and figure out why four talented coaches past up the opportunity to coach NC State University. Figure it out.

  18. Glen Sudhop54 08/04/2006 at 6:46 PM #

    Thanks RedFred for remembering the “payday at the liquor store” remark, I had forgotten that one. I still stand by it too.

    However this type of behavior is rampant everywhere. I guess it’s a generation gap type of thing. It just seems that State has gotten way too many unsportsmanlike conducts and excessive celebration penaties called against them while Chuck has been at the helm. The State games are the only ones I scrutinize, so maybe it happens 2 or 3 times a game at other places too.

    As far as Herb goes. I DO believe it was time for him go. He’s not the worst coach ever as some believe though.

    Fantasy land is for those who think that all of our basketball woes are over simply because Herb is gone.

    It was refreshing to see that the Pack football team did a much better job during the second half of the season on attitude and behavior. Let’s hope it carries over to this season and we won’t be having any posts about coaches needing to leave…….only Athletic Directors.

  19. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 8:55 PM #

    Wulf,

    I am going to reason as simply as I possibly can. There was a link to a great past when Herb Sendek arrived, it was never cultivated or even acknowledged. Time, and the refusal to acknowledge those great accomplishments has now erased them from the present and denied all access back to that glorious time.

    I do not blame Herb Sendek for his ten years on NC State’s watch, that was the administration’s decision. I blame Herb Sendek for just three things, the unrelenting fixation and refusal to vary from a single style of play, no matter the outcome, his inability to recognize clear talent that was staring right him the face waiting for him to give it an opportunity to show itself, and his stubborn and total denial that anything he was doing as a coach was ultimately responsible for any undesireable outcome.

    If you wish to address any of those thoughts directly, and one by one, I will more then glad to hear your opinion.

  20. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 8:56 PM #

    ^That was supposed to be addressed to Glen Sudhop54 too, if he would like weigh in.

  21. redfred2 08/04/2006 at 9:43 PM #

    Wulf,

    I see myself in the mirror and see that nothing I do here or anywhere, has any impact whatsoever on anyone who wants to coach in the best basketball conference in the land. If it does, or did, I surely don’t want them at NC State. I do not hold myself in such high regard and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am a non-factor in your equation.

    I’m just another fan, like millions of others at other schools across the nation. Probably just like some guy in Austin, Memphis, and so on. We’re everywhere but I don’t hear of the other redfred’s of the world ever having enough clout to sway a coaches employment choices elsewhere, do you? I must be a local phenomena, or maybe it exist only as an excuse when nothing else is working, or maybe even not at all.

  22. Wulfpack 08/04/2006 at 9:51 PM #

    “There was a link to a great past when Herb Sendek arrived, it was never cultivated or even acknowledged.”

    Perhaps there was a link at that time — though it had faded with the demise of Les. Though knowing Herb, that wasn’t his concern at all. His only concern was to get the program back running again — that’s it. Tradition is certainly important, and I do wish he embraced it more. At the same time, he was trying to build his own program, and at times that means breaking away from the past, and the mainstream.

    “Time, and the refusal to acknowledge those great accomplishments has now erased them from the present and denied all access back to that glorious time.”

    Acknowledging them and doing something are two different things. I guess what I am saying is that it is now year 2006.Check the calendar. It goes something like times have changed, we had better change with the times. That’s not Sendek’s fault.

    “I do not blame Herb Sendek for his ten years on NC State’s watch, that was the administration’s decision.”

    And the administration, from what I know, was no where near firing him. There is a clear reason why.

    “I blame Herb Sendek for just three things, the unrelenting fixation and refusal to vary from a single style of play,”

    It was a style of play that seemed to fit his style of coaching. It was manageable. Players were held accountable. It emphasized fundamentals and team play. Certainly not flashy, but effective. Coaches had very difficult times preparing their teams to play us. A team must be disciplined defensively. His teams were solid and smart.

    “his inability to recognize clear talent that was staring right him the face waiting for him to give it an opportunity to show itself,”

    He recruited this talent, and to him, gave the talent what they deserved. I can’t speak any more about this other than in his mind he was justified with his decisions. Some talent panned out in grand ways, others faded away. I don’t think this is unlike talent at other major programs. Happens all over the place. Just go visit other blogs or message boards such as this one.

    “and his stubborn and total denial that anything he was doing as a coach was ultimately responsible for any undesireable outcome.”

    I have little idea what you are really trying to say. I don’t think he really felt the need to apologize to anyone who had their qualms with him. In his mind, and many backers (believe it or not, I’m not nearly alone), he was running this program in a very responsible way. Consistently in the upper echelon of the league, gaining star recruits year after year. He simply couldn’t beat the boys in the two shades of blue. Last time I checked, he’s not the only one.

    The debate can surely go on, and on, and on. Yes, the fact of the matter is he moved on to greener pasteurs. But I will not stand by silent and let some hammer a guy that did a solid job over a 10 year period.

  23. 4NCSU 08/05/2006 at 11:33 AM #

    It amazes me on here that Herb Sendek’s supporters refuse to see that the man didn’t do what he was hired to do: win ACC titles and bring NC State back to the point of beating Duke and UNC 30-40% of the time. Herb Sendek, to me, was/is the most polarizing coach in football or basketball in NC State history. I won’t call him a totally awful coach because the truth is: He wasn’t. He made the NCAAs five times in ten years. That’s decent. He coached NC State to the ACC Tournament finals three times in ten years. Not bad. But nothing great there. He finished second in the ACC regular season one time in ten years. He consistently beat, in the last five years of his time at State, Clemson, UVA, Florida State, and Georgia Tech, the bottom feeders of the ACC. However, he had losing records against Maryland and Wake and rarely beat Duke and UNC.

    What annoys to me to no end about Sendek’s stedfast, never budging, loyal to the death supporters who refuse to see that in ten years, a long, long, long time, Herb Sendek never won the ACC regular season. Herb Sendek never won the ACC Tournament. Herb Sendek made it past the first weekend in the NCAAs just one time in a decade. He had a horrendous record against the other members of the Big Four, including the two most important ones. He was 5-17 against UNC, which has been rehashed over and over again over the last several months. But you take away the 4-2 vs. Matt Doh and you’re left with 1-15 against Deano, Gut, and Royboy. 0-6 vs. Huckleberry and we weren’t likely to dent the win column over the next two years. 3-21 versus Coach K, which is one win every solar eclipse or so. And then, surprisingly, we were 9-16 vs. Wake over the last ten years. That’s bad, Sendek Sunshine Squad.

    But the thing that really gets me is Herb Sendek’s unwavering commitment to his plan, when his plan wasn’t successful at beating Duke and UNC at all, and his defiance of anybody who dared to criticize him when he wasn’t all that to start with. And some of our fans are just like him. They accept losing to Carolina. They accept losing to Duke. Check out the thread back in February on PackPride after we got pounded by 24 points against Carolina in Raleigh. People were resigned to the fact that UNC should be better than us every single year. It was really bad. Because that night, UNC came to Raleigh with a young team and beat a State team that showed no emotion and no heart. I was there and it was the first time in five years that I had come to a State basketball game in Raleigh. I refused and did not buy tickets after 2001. I held to that commitment and I’m glad I did because the athletics department didn’t need my money. I came that night expecting to see a tight game with a 21-5 State team poised to beat Roy’s Heels and instead I got a lackluster, lethargic Wolfpack effort led by a passionless, stubborn, aloof coach.

    It’s one thing to consistently lose to UNC and show some remorse or some kind of emotion identifying you with the fans. Herb didn’t and wouldn’t. To him, the fans were probably mean, stupid, illogical, unrational and didn’t know crap about basketball.

    But when you look at Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano, you see that NC State can win big with leadership. Sloan was a no-nonsense, fiery type. Valvano was fiery, too, but he was more colorful and comical than Sloan. Both had strengths and were good motivators. Herb Sendek was a limited motivator.

    Sure, Sendek could recruit. But recruiting alone doesn’t get you to the top. You gotta motivate and you have to make smart adjustments during the game. Herb is fair at those things, but not particularly great.

    The guy made a lot of money at NC State. With different leadership in 2001, he could have easily been fired: five years, a definite reasonable amount of time to go to the NCAAs and no NCAAs. NC State made Herb Sendek rich, regardless of how long he’ll be at Arizona State in the future. He never has to work again. And he got wealthy, not by being great at his chosen profession, but by being mediocre to fair.

    Herb knew that, next year, the critics of his coaching leadership would get very, very loud. It was going to be a year with very limited talent in terms of players that can be successful in the ACC. We have very few of them next year. Sid will take the lump that Herb’s head would have received.

    And while his stock was the highest, he got out of Raleigh. His stock would have gone down and he would have been a little less marketable. Now he’ll continue to draw a big paycheck elsewhere, coaching D-1 college basketball. He’ll be paid a lot of money, about what he got at NCSU and have far, far less pressure and expectations. Arizona State has trouble filling Wells-Fargo Arena, which seats 13-14,000. There is no life for basketball there, which fits Herb Sendek’s temperament just fine. He never stated any expectations publicly at NC State and he carried hisself that same way with the press all the time, every year. “We’re just going to do our best.” There was never any talk of winning the ACC from ‘ol Herbert and I imagine the PAC 10 title won’t come up in future interviews over the next 5-10 years.

    Can you tell I’m ecstatic that he’s gone, never to hold down NC State any more? We might fail with Sid, too, but I don’t think Sid, with his mouth, will give us the same brand of BS that Herb Sendek did and would.

    Sid might be failing in four to five years. It’s hard to say if he will honestly succeed. I was troubled that four coaches turned State down: Barnes, Calipari, Beilein, and Lavin. I was excited about the Barnes and Calipari possibilities because these are proven coaches that have been to the Final Four. I was less excited by Beilein and Lavin, but respect Beilein.

    But I won’t come out and say Sid is going to fail. I said, “He might fail.” His losing record is troubling, but he coached lousy, terrible NBA teams. His lack of college coaching is disturbing also. I think about Rick Pitino and I also think about pro football coaches who struggled (Stallings, Spurrier, and others), but won big in college.

    I think Sid will do at least what Herb did: make it to the NCAAs and make State about third to fifth place in the ACC generally. I have honest questions if Sid can win big, but am willing to give him a chance: 4-6 years to make an instone conclusion.

    Sendek could have stayed longer as he had the support of the powerful and wealthy minority, but who wants to be somewhere where, quite frankly and bluntly, you’re not wanted? Had Sendek been willing to be flexible with his program and had he been willing to connect with fans better, he might have bought himself more support. Frankly, he didn’t care at all, not the least bit. He has a certain personality that can easily alienate people. And in college sports, you have to be willing to be on the level of the masses.

    I’m thankful that he’s far, far away. I won’t have to see him with an NC State shirt on. I won’t have to hear his voice with his endless coachspeak, preprepared drivel, lack of passion and intensity. The ASU fans now get to put up with his lack of charisma and his lack of goals and expectations.

    Go Sid! Go State! I look forward to coming to the RBC Center again.

  24. redfred2 08/05/2006 at 12:41 PM #

    Wulf,

    You really need to examine your thinking up there in that post especially in the places like:

    Yours:
    “Though knowing Herb, that wasn’t his concern at all”….
    Mine:
    Though knowing Herb, he doesn’t have any comprehension of those types of things, he is the equivalent of a basketball calculator, with a limited amount of responses programmed into his circuitry, and no way to express human emotion when it would greatly benefit him to do so.

    Yours:
    “Check the calendar. It goes something like times have changed, we had better change with the times. That’s not Sendek’s fault.”
    Mine:
    “So you’re saying that times changed right up until Sendek arrived and everyone needed to forget the past, be flexible and embrace Herb’s new philosophy. We’re not talking one way street there, Herb Sendek also had an obligation to learn, change, and adapt to the new requirements of his more prestigious job requirements. He couldn’t even change or adapt during a forty minute basketball game, much less adapt to fit into the enviroment at NC State. That was unyielding and went on for ten years without one ounce of effort ever from Herb Sendek. Yet you blame the fans and alumni who were here long before he arrived.

    Yours:
    “and to him, gave the talent what they deserved.”
    Mine:
    Are we talking Herbert Sendek here? Or Marie Antionette? Maybe God himself even?

    Yours:
    “It was a style of play that seemed to fit his style of coaching.”
    Mine:
    On that one I could go on forever but I’ll just say that the early caveman was the first homo sapien to use his brain and figure how to use simple and obvious tools that he had in front of him. Carnegie Mellon came later.

    Yours:
    “I can’t speak any more about this other than in his mind he was justified with his decisions.”
    Mine:
    I think there was a guy named Adolph Hitler who wielded same type of unquestioning loyalty and never looked back. ???

    Yours:
    “I don’t think he really felt the need to apologize to anyone who had their qualms with him.”
    Mine: Again the Hitler thing, but you used the appropriate when you said “apologize.” That is it in a nutshell. That is your’s and Herbert Sendek’s take on the whole unfair treatment fairy tale and your’s and his main flaw. In reality there was no one even threatening to take over, his job was secure even on the day he decided to move on. The fans hadn’t changed or affected the administration’s minds at all, as you clearly stated above… “And the administration, from what I know, was no where near firing him.”… No one ever demanded or even wanted to hear apologies, they wanted to hear the man openly discuss solutions, and simply see positive changes. That’s all the guy needed to do from day one but he either didn’t think that it was important enough to bother his too intelligent self with, or he has just never developed the capacity to communicate on that level and wasn’t going to try in Raleigh no matter what.

    Yours:
    “Yes, the fact of the matter is he moved on to greener pasteurs.”
    Mine:
    I guess your final insinuations there are to mean that ASU is step up from NC State University and all of it’s stupid and redneck fans.

    If you read back over this post again, along with a lot of other people’s, I think you’ll find that some of us rednecks may have a better grasp on the practical reality of what’s required when coaching a major and historically proven basketball program than your boy does there, who arrived via The Carnegie Mellon Institutes of higher learning.

    Admit that mistakes were made and people do have a right to be upset, stop defending a lost cause and acting as if there is absolutely no justification for complaints, then the hammers will disappear.

    Either that or start a Herb Sendek site of your own.

  25. Wulfpack 08/05/2006 at 6:00 PM #

    ^Haha, no thanks. Doing such a thing might push me well over the deep end. You and 4NCSU make enticing points and it is clear your care for the program as well as the university is deep. Though I disagree with the opinions expressed on the whole, I do think there is at least some common ground. I’ll spare us all our sanity and drop the debate right here. May football season begin.

    On a side not, if I’m not a redneck too then I don’t know what is!

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