Tudor Nails a Piece of the Success Blueprint

In addition to this piece, another of SFN’s more respected local writers penned some greath thoughts regarding Sidney Lowe today that merits some attention and discussion.

The News & Observer’s Caulton Tudor compared the big gamble on Coach Lowe to the role of underdog that the 1983 National Champion Wolfpack. Tudor goes on to say:

my hunch is Lowe will eventually improve State’s program and have a long, successful run

Tudor proceeds to speculate more specifically about talent and re-hashes an old NC State internet debate of the last few years — “what if” former coach Herb Sendek had done a better job with his talent evaluation of just in-state players (not to mention out of state decisions like passing on Steve Blake for Cliff Crawford).

Tudor states:

In retrospect, Herb Sendek’s biggest problem was an inability to lure top-line talent. The most obvious red flag came when he couldn’t get Shavlik Randolph, a lifelong Wolfpack fan and the grandson of a school great, away from Duke. That was one of the few times Sendek and Duke went head-to-head over a target.

Improving State’s haul in North Carolina would make a big difference. Many of State’s best players were in-state finds — David Thompson, Tom Burleson and Phil Spence off the ’74 national champions alone. Think of where the program might be today had Sendek signed Randolph, Eric Williams, Chris Paul, Anthony Morrow, Anthony King, David Noel and Reyshawn Terry.

In addition to the names Tudor referened, take a moment to think of what Herb Sendek’s NC State program could have been had Sendek not told ACC Player of the Year and NBA star Josh Howard that he wasn’t good enough for a scholarship at NC State but we would allow him to walk on?

Imagine NCAA Champion Chris Wilcox on a Wolfpack front line that would have overlapped with 7’0 Garner’s David West (Xavier)?

I wonder how this year’s NC State-Texas NCAA Tournament game would have looked if Big 12 Player of the Year, Raleigh’s PJ Tucker, was playing for the team from Raleigh?

Tudor inherently understands what many young NC State fans don’t because they haven’t experienced it — NC State’s program can be nationally successful by keeping North Carolina’s top local talent local in Raleigh.

In the 1970s and the 1980s, the core of the blueprint for NC State’s basketball success program was built on two key components:

(1) NC State was able to land a majority of the nationally relevant talent from North Carolina High Schools that didn’t sign with UNC-Chapel Hill.

History shows that it is relatively inconsequential to NC State’s overall success if Carolina lands the top in-state player (like Buzz Peterson, Michael Jordan, Curtis Hunter, Ranzino Smith, Brad Daugherty, Rashad McCants) as long as the Wolfpack is still signing the “next tier” of legitimate ACC players. Names like Burleson, Thompson, Spence, Shackleford, Washburn, Chucky Brown, Brian Howard, Kevin Thompson, Bryant Feggins, Nate McMillan, Alvin Battle and others (Dinky Proctor? George McClain?) served as heartbeats on the fantastic teams in the 1970s and 1980s.

Under Les Robinson and Herb Sendek, NC State moved away from its traditional model of landing the “best of the rest” in North Carolina. Wake Forest gladly stepped into the role and it wsn’t a coincidence that the Demon Deacons have simultaneously experienced the greatest 15 year period of excellence in its program’s history.

Since 1990, the Demon Deacons have basically “replaced” NC State as the destination for key local talent that historically made a tremendous impact playing in Reynolds Coliseum. Before 1990, State would have almost never missed on Rodney Rogers, Chris Paul, Craig Dawson, Eric Williams, Justin Gray and Josh Howard. Think of the impact that these stars have had in elevating Wake Forest’s program while NC State’s program (that once served as these players’ destination) floundered.

This whole NCHSAA-talent issue is one of the primary reasons that I scoff at the ‘experts’ that say State can’t be successful because of its proximity to Duke. Hell, State has had single seasons with more NC players on our roster than Duke has had in spans of a decade. Why does it matter how close we are to Duke if we have so rarely competed for talent against them? A more detailed look at the facts of the situation indicate that Wake Forest’s success actually has a stronger impact on NC State than Duke’s success. Forming this conclusion would take time, research, and some critical thinking skills that are all counter to skills of being a member of the national media.

(2) Of course, there was another key component to much of NC States 1970s and 1980s success — talent from the Washington, DC area.

Wolfpack greats like Kenny Carr, Hawkeye Whitney, Clyde Austin (Va), Thurl Bailey, Sidney Lowe, Dereck Whittenburg, Quinten Jackson, Bennie Bolton, and Rodney Monroe all called the area home. (Where was Kenny Matthews from?)

Where is Sidney Lowe from again?

Basketball Recruiting General NCS Basketball Sidney Lowe Tradition

49 Responses to Tudor Nails a Piece of the Success Blueprint

  1. BillyTheKid 05/12/2006 at 12:41 PM #

    I’m truly sorry people, but I think that this whole idea of “tough academic resestrictions” holding us back is a load of BS. I know for a fact that there was a BB player at State between 95 and 98 who had a learning disability. He was in one of my English classes and he had to drop it because there was too much reading. There was even an article in the N&O his last year at State that talked about all the things he had to overcome just to be in college. I’m not going to give his name but he avg. 10.7 ppg over the fours he was at State, so you can lookup who I’m talking about if it matters that much to you. As you can tell from some of my posts, english was not my best subject but I made a B in the class, it wasn’t that hard.

    I know the restrictions were a lot tougher in the early 90’s, we all remember Mr. Kornegay’s short, short stay with us, but I just don’t believe that it holds true today. If a kid can get into UNX, he can get into NC State.

  2. class of 74 05/12/2006 at 1:02 PM #

    Hey Joe what about the two coaches that followed Bubas prior to Bill Foster’s arrival in Durham. How good were they? Duke MUST have a great coach to be great it’s just that simple. None of these programs will run on auto pilot just look at us for the past 16 years.

  3. choppack1 05/12/2006 at 1:27 PM #

    Interesting topic of recruiting in-state vs. out of state. I still believe that when the new academic requirements rolled out the State schools in the ACC lost a lot of talent. Much of the talent in NC has been academically marginal – Chris Washburn and Kenny Williams – 2 of the best recruits in the 80s come to mind. Mt. Zion produced tons of great players who couldn’t enroll in conference.

    There’s a huge prospect west of Winston Salem right now. He’s a 6-9 PF/C type with lots of skills. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. He’s the classic kid that may not end up w/ Duke or UNC-Ch – and State and Wake may end up fighting it out. I see this as a critical in-state match up.

  4. newt 05/12/2006 at 1:44 PM #

    During the Les years, I wrote a couple of articles for Technician documenting our basketball academics verses Duke and UNC. I have them in hardcopy form.

    At that time, Duke and UNC, not Wake, had the two lowest average SAT scores in the ACC.

    NC State had the second highest average SAT scores.

    NC State had the highest team GPA, even if you removed Todd Fuller.

    I spoke with, and quoted, a representative in the athletics department at UNC who stated that a number of players on their basketball team would have been on academic suspension at NC State during the ACC season.

  5. class of 74 05/12/2006 at 1:59 PM #

    ^ I’ve heard David Glenn dispute this in the past on the radio.

  6. RickJ 05/12/2006 at 2:11 PM #

    Eric Wallace is a 2007 in-state recruit to watch. Tremendous athlete, David Noel type with great mid-range game that would not be a great fit for the Princeton offense. I wonder if our new staff will make this player a high priority.

  7. c6by66 05/12/2006 at 2:20 PM #

    Does anyone have a CONFIRMATION that Coach Towe is NOW officially on the Lowe man’s staff…All the published articles state the Harris has signed and Towe is negotiating…just curious about Jackson and Strickland and any others…by the way…what is the NCAA limit on the staff…appreciate any feedback from those more knowledgeable than me.

    I second all the great comments…Lowe is a natural fit. He has all the characteristics that made V great…he is mature and capable of achieving his own level of greatness by learning from the success – as well as the failures of others. V was an English major with a tremendous knowledge of history…particularly BB. Lowe will be able to rekindle the flame and keep the dream alive…I personally vote for a remake of V’s dream room. He left us enough footage for a great experience…Need V’s name on our court…not just in the rafters of the RBC

  8. newt 05/12/2006 at 2:49 PM #

    Is there a specific part of my statement that you would like confirmation about?

    I’m happy to send copies of my article which have my name at the top. Unfortunately, they were pre internet archive.

  9. BillyTheKid 05/12/2006 at 3:47 PM #

    newt,
    what year was the article from? What was the name of the person from the UNC AD that you talked with, what office did they hold? Where did you get your info about SAT scores and GPA’s? What years were the SAT and GPA scores from that were in your article?

  10. StateFans 05/12/2006 at 3:57 PM #

    Billy,

    What are you arguing. I had articles published in major newspapers listing the average SAT scores of programs and the average GPAs. One year I remember vividly that State was at the top and Wake and Carolina were virtually tied at the bottom (and were sitting at the top of the standings).

  11. choppack1 05/12/2006 at 3:59 PM #

    “Eric Wallace is a 2007 in-state recruit to watch. Tremendous athlete, David Noel type with great mid-range game that would not be a great fit for the Princeton offense. I wonder if our new staff will make this player a high priority.”

    The kid I’m talking about isn’t Wallace. Wallace is an interesting case – he was supposed to be the next “it” player in the Triad. However, he hasn’t grown too much since his Freshman year when he was a 6-5 man-child. He’s got great grades, but is transferring to Hargrave this year. It will be interesting to see what happens to him – his stock hasn’t skyrocketed the last year like others thought it would. However, all indications are that he is a good kid. This happens a lot when you start following players early – the 6-4 to 6-6 superstud has the rest of the field catch up to him because he doesn’t grow a lot.

    Still – Wallace is the classic player that would probably have a productive career at NC State or Wake.

  12. BillyTheKid 05/12/2006 at 4:11 PM #

    I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to argue anything. I was only asking for the year that was being talked about and wondering where one would go to discover info on BB player’s SAT scores and their GPA’s. I’m sorry that I find it interesting.

  13. vtpackfan 05/12/2006 at 5:30 PM #

    A friend of my wife’s went to Carolina (’00) and at first was pre med before switching to journalism. She told us a story one night about when taking a biology test freshman year, she happened to see classmate Dante Calabria stroll in fashionably late. He got his test from the teacher sat down, and was done an hour before anyone else. This story would not have been memorable to Sharon I suspect, if not for the day to pick up the test results she found Dante’s name posted as the highest score.

  14. thebigwood 05/12/2006 at 6:53 PM #

    I beleive almost everything about that story, except the posting of Calabria’s name with the highest score. Professor’s normally don’t post things like that.

  15. vtpackfan 05/12/2006 at 7:32 PM #

    I could ask her how she found out otherwise. She knew zero about men’s basketball when she attended. Calabria, and others, were there to pick up a syllabus and again on exam day. She was told by a classmate who he was. It’s not that I’m looking to score points on Carolina. In fact I think the whole conversation about G.P.A.’s, SAT’s is foolish. The standards are what they are so they is really no debating that. Once they’re in thats it. My father-in-law is a professor at State and had to give a F or atleast an incomplete to a certain Wolfpack forward around the time this athlete had been arrested for drunk driving. He was under so much scrutiny from above that in the end he gave up and just passed him. This individual hadn’t attended ONE class. In the past 10 years I have noticed a pattern around the country that players are sat down by coach’s for violating team rules more and more, versus a sharp decline in players sitting out specifically for academics.

  16. vtpackfan 05/12/2006 at 7:52 PM #

    ^^you’re right, my bad. Calabria’s name was not posted, possibly ID, but the teacher did announce that he had the highest exam score in the class.

  17. Hawkeye Whitney 05/12/2006 at 9:37 PM #

    One factor not yet discussed is the role that the fan base might have related to in-state recruiting. I was torn about the Sendek situation for years. I really thought that our program could do better without him, but I believe in supporting your coach. When he started getting NCAAT invitations, I was even more torn. I think that in-state recruits, especially, are tuned in to the relationship between a coach and the fan base. The widespread unhappiness with Herb couldn’t have helped recruiting, especially with programs nearby having nothing but love for their coaches. Now we have a fresh opportunity, and I think it is important to extend the Coach Lowe “honeymoon” as long as possible. Realistically, our program may struggle for a couple years, especially if Cedric Simmons jumps to the NBA and if we can’t get re-commitments from some of Herb’s recruits. I don’t think we should underestimate the effect that we, as fans, have on the in-state recruiting climate. I think we need to re-make our image into one of an intensely loyal and excited fan base. I for one will be disappointed if we lose badly to UNC next year and the grumbling starts. We, as a fan base, are not just spectators. Our reaction to the program’s successes and especially its failures will have an effect on Coach Lowe’s recruiting.

  18. jncope 05/12/2006 at 10:09 PM #

    Speaking of recruits. It looks like Seton Hall is wasting no time going after our two NJ recruits (Werner and Horner). Bobby Gonzalez is supposed to be an excellent recruiter. Without a coach, this could be tough for us.

    http://setonhall.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=543226&SR=TSN

    Question for SFN – Do you know if both players have been granted a conditional release or just one? If one of them hasn’t, then Seton Hall isn’t allowed to contact him right?

  19. vtpackfan 05/12/2006 at 10:23 PM #

    “I for one will be disappointed if we lose badly to UNC next year and the grumbling starts”

    This won’t be an issue, mark my word. Lowe will come in ready to compete in the ACC, and the communication between fans/coach will be the first major improvement. No more reading between the lines. Everyone who lives gets to experience life as a process, but Lowe is a guys who wants to win basketball games.

  20. Gene 05/13/2006 at 10:09 AM #

    In defense of Herb, from what I remember, he did make a push for Wilcox and his teammate Michael Bell, another top 100 player from Enloe (me class of ’92, so I paid more attention to those guys more than most). Bell joined NCSU, but blew out his knee and realized he wasn’t going to get playing time, so transferred. Wilcox went to Maryland.

    I think part of the problem with Randoplh, was the fact Herb was recruiting the year before he made his first NCAAT appearance, and his job security was in doubt. Mikie K. was coming of a Final Four birth, during the recruitment, and/or the ’01 NCAA tournament title (maybe, I’m trying to get my dates straight so I don’t know if the title was before or after Randoplh committed to Duke).

    Anyway Duke was a much flashier and more successful program than NCSU, which was trying to rebuild from the fallout from the Valvano-era and still hadn’t shown it could be a NCAA caliber team. Randoplh did the “safe” thing for himself. He went to the more established program, instead of taking a chance with a coach, Herb, who might be fired and a program, NCSU, which might not get enough talent together to make an NCAA tournament.

    So I’m not laying it too hard on Herb for losing out on Wilcox and Randolph. He did try but didnt’ have the track record to compete with Gary Williams – Joe Smith recently being the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA draft, at that time – and Mikie K’s proven success.

    Just a side note Chris Paul wasn’t second tier talent. He was the top player in North Carolina, coming out of high school, from what I’ve read. Same with David Thompson and Tommy Burleson.

    We can build a solid program with second tier guys, but we aren’t going to contend, on a consistent basis, with Duke or Caroina (especially Carolina), if we can’t land top players in North Carolina. Carolina really separated itself, in terms of success, from NCSU in the late 1970’s, when Norm Sloan lost out to Dean Smith, on such guys like James Worthy and Phil Ford.

    Cedric Simmons was the top rated player coming out of high school, in North Carolina a couple of years ago. Without him, we all feel next year will be a tough year. With him, we’re all guiddy with antiicipation (maybe premature) about what next year could be like.

    You can build a solid program with second tier guys, but to really compete with Duke and Carolina, not have some “surprise” runs in the ACC tournament, we’ll need to get at least one top tier guy, whether from NC or out of state.

    Also, for arguments sake, if mistakes were made about evaluating talent, and Harris was Herb’s guy for recruiting players, than how are we confident things will improve since Harris will be Lowe’s point man for evaluating prospects.

    Herb’s lack of job security hurt us, with regards to recruitment, in 2002 and 2003, more so than mis-evaluating players. These weak recruiting classes is what kept us from really improving as a program, the last few years. Even this past season, we had three walk-ons suiting up for games, on the bench. That’s not a lot of depth, compared to what three solid recruiting classes (I’m assuming ’06’s stays in tact) will do for depth and talent at every position.

    Herb had trouble developing talent, so I don’t think it’d have made much of a difference if we got Steve Blake or Chris Crawford. Either would’ve struggled and not live up to the hype they had coming out of high school.

    I’m hoping, and most NCSU fans should hope this too, that the Pistons win the NBA title this year. That’d really give Lowe a good boost for getting the door, of potential recruits, because we do need some top tier talent to get back to playing championship basketball.

  21. redfred2 05/13/2006 at 7:10 PM #

    ^Dan

    “the room be creative and explosive.”

    I knew my post would get a rise out of you.

    Now just where was the “creative/ explosive” part? I must have missed that somewhere along the way.

  22. redfred2 05/14/2006 at 2:48 PM #

    ^Dan

    Forget my previous smart a*s post above this one. You are plainly promoting a theory, of how the game can be played. Some of your earlier comments, from months before, led me to believe that you thought that everything was fine on the offensive end, that it was all the player’s fault because they just weren’t executing.

    Your point about the zone defense is good and fairly obvious. That offensive style cannot flourish without dribble drive penetration and speed at the ball handling positions. It has to have a constant and consistent threat to penetrate, or it can never get off the ground. Herb either forgot, did not know how to teach it, or just didn’t realize, that that was the most important key to his scheme. Thus, resulting in endless heaves raining down from beyond the arc.

    Where we differ is, I don’t care who is making that theory work with totally different personal, at a different level with a whole different set of rules, it is still an unproven commodity in the college game, and no other coach, in college, or at the profession level, ever applauded his team for wasting a three on one fast break opportunity, at the half court line, just to set up the offense.

    Your points about Grant, Cam B, Ced S, and the rest, may be correct. Even though I do not believe in that offense as the mainstay and only option, and unlike some of you guys, I know the players at NCSU over the past years could have executed it much better than they ever did if they were taught it correctly, that wasn’t the player’s fault.

  23. Dan 05/15/2006 at 4:03 PM #

    Red,

    G’Town is doing a pretty good job already at executing that offense. And the talent they are chasing is just going to make them better. JTIII is proving a much better at adapting the offense to the college game than Sendek. JTIII knows he needs athletes to run it in college. And he knows that he needs solid PG play. There were times when it seemed that the only way Herb knew to beat a zone was the 3 when there are many other ways out there. Dribble penetration. Overloading areas (I’m not sure I ever saw Sendek attempt this on purpose).

    And I’m not saying its the best system. I dont think there is a ‘best’ system. The best players win. If the best coaches won, the same teams would win every year. Duke might be unstoppable. But Duke’s players werent that good, so they lost, no matter the offense they ran.

    In the end, I really dont care what offense is run. I just want to win.

    To tell you the truth. If it were me, I like BC’s style of play. There are times when they will all 5 guys either in or close to the paint. Precision passing close in. Bounce passes. If Ced came back next year, State could do something similiar at times. Having Ced, B-Rack, Costner, Grant, and Fells on the court would give us some nasty size most teams would have a hard time matching. Not to mention four of those guys can take you outside as well.

  24. redfred2 05/16/2006 at 1:37 PM #

    ^Dan,

    Fair enough, good to see that you are thinking that way. You have to admit that Cam B fit the bill for an inside/outside threat. You are definite numbers/ strategy guy. I believe that a coaches persona and skill can make the difference with regards to the inequities in talent and personnel, in every game, of every season. It will not always produce wins against far superior teams, but it is always a factor in being competitive with them.

    You are already well aware that I think that game situations involve ever changing strategies and decisions, every time down, and at both ends of the court.

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