Davis Won’t Play for State

Since most of the readers of StateFansNation (“The graduate level NC State Website”) are a little more experienced in the real world than the readers of other sites…let’s play a little “real world” hypothetical this morning —-

Let’s assume for a moment that you own a company.

One of your account officers makes a key sale for the company. In the sale the new client signs a contract committing the client to provide certain services for the next four years. You are restricted by law to having less than fifteen clients at any one time, so the commitment of the new client is very important.

After the new sale is signed, sealed and delivered and you have begun making arrangements and planning around the new client, the account officer who signed the deal accepts leaves your company to accept a new job with a competitor.

The new client, who signed his/her contract with YOUR COMPANY – not the account officer – suddenly claims that they are uneasy with their agreement and would like to take their business elsewhere.

Question: As a prudent manager of your business, do you allow the new client to freely ignore his commitment and simply waltz into the horizon without exercising any of the penalty clauses availability to you in the signed contract?

FORMER NC State recruit, Larry Davis, has decided to forego his commitment to NC State and join Seton Hall and their new coach, Bobby Gonzalez. (Link)

In the summer of 2005, the 6-foot-3 shooting guard who played at New York’s Christ the King High School committed to N.C. State, the first school he had visited.

“I really don’t know coach Lowe,” Davis said. “He’s not going to be here in June. It’s just not good going into a new thing like that, not knowing what you’re getting into.”

Davis is a nice player who barely averaged 14 points a game in high school and was barely ranked around the #100 HS players in the country. A case could be made that if Larry Davis is playing signficant time for NC State in three or four years, then our program isn’t where it will need to be or where we hope that it will be.

The big issue around this situation now is NC State’s (yet to be determined) decision to grant Davis a full release or a partial release where he would be required to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play at Seton Hall. In recent years, the NCAA has been more lenient in allowing petitioning players to transfer without having to sit out a year.

But…from NC State’s perspective…Is there really a choice here?

OF COURSE State should only grant a partial release and make the kid have to go through the NCAA’s appeals process to be allowed to play immediately.

From State’s selfish perspective:

* The kid didn’t even afford Sidney Lowe the opportunity to meet with him face to face. (Does Seton Hall really have that many other kids right now to whom they are trying to give this extra scholarship?)

* Also, it was pretty evident, even mistakenly printed in local newspapers in New Jersey, that Seton Hall was illegally contacting Davis long before NC State granted him a conditional release to talk to other schools.

It is UNACCEPTABLE that NC State would support this kind of behavior from the kid and from Seton Hall by just rolling over and being complicit in this bullshit.

But, there is a lot more to this and Larry Davis.

Human beings react to incentives; give someone enough incentive or disincentive and you can create the behavior that you desire. (See Freakanomics). NC State MUST be smart enough here to signal to Dan Werner or Dennis Horner that DISINCENTIVE EXISTS FOR THEM TO CONSIDER BACKING OUT OF THEIR LETTERS OF INTENT.

Most schools do NOT give kids that sign with them a change of heart because of a coaching change a full release. NC State should not either. If they want to go so badly, then let them all know that they will have to go through the hassle, the time and the process and deal with the NCAA for a full release.

Basketball Recruiting General NCS Basketball

95 Responses to Davis Won’t Play for State

  1. duckmanjw 05/26/2006 at 12:51 PM #

    Actually it is! If his goal was to coach in college, he should have taken steps prior to Fowler running around acting stupid looking for a coach to decide he wanted to finish his degree.

    He’s had 20+ years to prepare for this and now we are suffering because he wants to be loyal to the Pistons and get that bonus check if they win the title.

    Its past time he start doing something he’s not done in those years since he left here, show some loyalty to NC State and do things to better the university and the basketball program, not his checkbook!

  2. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:53 PM #

    Saw this above from a post:

    On the bright side, think of the possibilities of what we could do with that scholarship once Lowe gets going on the recruiting trail. The bar will be “Better than Davis.� Certainly doable.

    Davis is a solid player, but doing better is definitely doable. The ’07 class is full of gret talent, and we are going to have some scholarships. It appears due to the rules, we can forget about the ’06 class. Sid really has to come in running to get a quality class in ’07. I believe he can do it. In the meantime, guys like Courtney Fells, Engin Atsur, and Gavin Grant are just going to have play a lot of minutes and stay out of foul trouble.

  3. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:56 PM #

    “He’s had 20+ years to prepare for this and now we are suffering because he wants to be loyal to the Pistons and get that bonus check if they win the title.”

    Dude, you are ten times dumber than the people going after Davis here. The bonus check? That’s what you think this is about? The bonus check? Its about being part of a World Championship on the highest level. Get out of there with that nonsense.

  4. duckmanjw 05/26/2006 at 1:02 PM #

    His priorities should be in Raleigh, not Detroit, regardless of the reasons!

    At this point, the Pistons win or loss whether he’s there or not.

  5. Clarksa 05/26/2006 at 1:04 PM #

    Two things of note:

    1) We did not fire Coach Sendek, he left on his own.

    2) We gave a conditional release that said NC State would get the “last shot” before a decision is made.

    I can argue this both was with no problem. However, considering we didn’t fire the coach, and Davis did not give Coach Lowe a chance, I say let the kid sit for a year. My opinion would be different had we pulled the trigger on the coach he wanted to play for.

  6. Dan 05/26/2006 at 1:08 PM #

    I will add this in parting. From what I’ve been hearing, it is possible that Gonzales stepped over the line on this one as regards the timeline for contacting Davis. The only problem is that Lowe might have done the same. Gonzales has targeted several recruits in similiar situations this year. It needs to be looked into.

    Chuck has refused to release kids before to schools he knew were contacting them in violation. Personally, I think that is what needs to be done. However, whose decision is that right now? Is it Sid’s? He’s in Detroit. And just maybe Sid has stretched the rules with his contacts. Not broken. Just stretched a bit. This thing has Lee Fowler written all over it.

  7. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 1:16 PM #

    ^Dan

    “NCAA rules and the calendar just dont allow enough days for this to happen. Its just impossible.”

    Fair enough.

    All I am saying is that there were no signs of any backlash for jumping ships, or anything promoting the positive aspects of Lowe’s new staff, coming out of Raleigh. What the hell is everybody doing up there?

    Lee Fowler is being Mr Submissive and rolling over like a puppy at every request because he hasn’t figured out in his own mind, if he has done a one damn thing right yet. He doesn’t have any confidence in his new hire and he isn’t promoting NCSU to anyone or anybody.

  8. smithdl4 05/26/2006 at 1:29 PM #

    Just to clarify for all concerned, the NCAA does not run the LOI side of college basketball. A 500+ university organization called the Collegiate Commissioners Association (CCA) is responsible. These are not NCAA rules and they also do not apply to non CCA institutions, although its hard to believe there are any non-members. Dave Glenn did an article on this during the coaching search some time back. You should read it.

    Here’s a novel way to make the decision. Why not ask the coach?

  9. RC Teach 05/26/2006 at 1:32 PM #

    I say only a partial release and that’s because Seton Hall had to have clearly violated their ethical responsiblities with regard to davis’ recruitment. I have felt this way for a long time and think he should have to sit out a year. If it is such a great fit for him then the extra year of preparation wouldn’t hurt.

  10. sautz 05/26/2006 at 1:35 PM #

    Thank you for this article. I also agree 100% that the LOI should mean *something*. I’m a little shocked at some of the other boards that want him to be able to just walk away as easily as he pleases. There are lessons to be learned in life. If you sign something it should mean something… he should have to work at least a little to get out of it. I’m not being bitter, I mean I would rather have him on the team for some guard depth than not, but it’s the principal.

  11. class of 74 05/26/2006 at 2:01 PM #

    I’m sure alot of these kids have that feeling of buyers remorse. Larry Davis , Dan Werner and Dennis Horner combined are not greater than our program. If they don’t want to be a part of this program that’s fine don’t come here and bring any of your negativity, take it somewhere else please. We will be just fine without them as it only opens up more spots for Sid’s kids. The fewer ties to the former regime the better IMHO.

  12. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 2:06 PM #

    Would any of the people who feel we should just turn these guys over without a whimper, feel we were justified if NCSU took a recruit from another university under similar circumstances?

    I wouldn’t, and I don’t think anyone else would either.

  13. BladenWolf 05/26/2006 at 2:10 PM #

    Very interesting posts today. The Davis issue is multi-faceted and can be analyzed many ways. The “rules are the rules” viewpoint has been clearly stated and the “Davis is a kid” and “didn’t know a coaching change was coming” viewpoint has also been well articulated. Throw in the “Sidney is gone right now” scenario and you have an complex stew.
    I think I can only wholeheartedly agree on one opinion stated here and that is this entire issue was a direct result of Lee Fowler’s inability to hire a coach in a timely manner. Would we even be discussing this if we had a coach in place who had already talked with recruits (and existing players) and making plans for next season? I realize I digress, but the sooner we get rid of Jed the sooner we will not have to be faced with these unneccessary complex issues where no one wins.

  14. EagleEyed 05/26/2006 at 2:12 PM #

    Let’s say your company not only loses the manager that signed the client but changed its business approach. Other potential clients are watching how you are doing business with the client you have under contract. Do you force them to remain under contract at the potential expense of future clients when this is likely one of your less profitbale clients you may sign in the grand scheme of things? Or, do you show the potential high profit clients that you understand and care about a client that doesn’t believe your new business approach best fits their model for success based on that change?

  15. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 2:14 PM #

    ^class of 74

    You may have just hit on something there. If these guys were to NC State for the single reason because of who was coaching at the time, then they don’t have any idea of what their new coach will be expecting of them anyway. I hope they all come, but if they can’t see the upside, maybe it is really nothing to fret over after all.

  16. packof81 05/26/2006 at 2:32 PM #

    Larry Davis should have to present his case to the NCAA. This Seton Hall business is kinda fishy. Perhaps the NCAA should wade into this.

  17. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 2:37 PM #

    ^EagleEyed

    Lets say you have some contracts you haven’t been servicing properly lately and the person directly over those accounts leaves the company. You spend months trying to hire someone suitable to the task and who will do a better job of taking care of those written contracts. Once you find that person and are implementing the change, do you simply say all contracts are void, and release everyone from all responsibility and roll over and die? Do you feel that your company must penalized because no one is penalizing you. Is there a mindset that says that “this company” just has to be a martyr at all times and doesn’t feel right about simply playing by the rules.

    Does that mindset contribute to the “not being quite able to compete with the big boys” syndrome. Those are the big boys, the ones who take every advantage they can get, and kick your ass in the business world.

  18. NCSU4LIFE 05/26/2006 at 2:40 PM #

    If we don’t grant him a full release then this kid will be back in the news. If we do grant him a release we will never hear from him again. This kid obviously has a chip on his shoulder reading some of the articles since he made his decision. Like SFN said this kid barely averaged 13 pts a game and was barely a top 100 player. We are not talking OJ Mayo here. He is already getting more publicity out of this than he will probably ever get during days as a college basketball player. If he were to come here his ass would be riding the pine as soon as Sid started recruiting the calibre of players we want and need at NCSU.

    By not granting him a full release however it sends the message to all kids to take the LOI seriously. I say let the kid sit. Whether something fishy was going on with SH or not let his ass wait 1 year. Those are the consequences of not getting a full release and that should have been explained to him before he ever signed a LOI. He can only blame himself for his ignorance if he did not know.

  19. dj9686 05/26/2006 at 2:52 PM #

    Man, why does everyone want to be so hard on a young man who committed to a program because he wanted to play for a certain coach? He has decided he doesn’t want to play for NCSU so we are going to punish him for it? Our program has already suffered enough black eyes during this entire coaching search debacle–up until we hired Sid–why do we want to look petty and vindictive? It’s sad that we want to punish some 17 or 18 year old because we’ve had to make a change here and he has had second thoughts because of that. We talk about making a business decision and making him grow up and deal with it… That’s just ridiculous. I believe a lot of us need to grow up and be mature about this situation. If proposed to ‘Helen’ and her sister ‘Bertha’ showed up at the wedding in her place, would you still go through with the marriage?

  20. Rick 05/26/2006 at 2:58 PM #

    “We can hold these young men’s feet to the fire, but what do we gain?”

    I keep reading this (or something similar). How are we holding his fee to the fire? We are not forcing him to play, we are simply saying, enforce the rule that exists (for a reason).

  21. joe 05/26/2006 at 4:17 PM #

    Does anyone really think he’s not going to get a full release?

    As others have mentioned, NCSU does not want any bad publicity over this so he will be released and that will be the end of it. You don’t want a new coach with no college experience to start his career at NCSU with people talking badly about any of these recruits having to sit out a year.

  22. Dan 05/26/2006 at 4:35 PM #

    “Question: As a prudent manager of your business, do you allow the new client to freely ignore his commitment and simply waltz into the horizon without exercising any of the penalty clauses availability to you in the signed contract?”

    Are you kidding me here?

    I’m guessing you think a prudent manager would also refuse to ever allow any of their account officers to talk to other companies. Or would you be a stickler, and recommend your company always ask other companies before you contact them? Because we all know that a school is well within their rights according to the NCAA to refuse their coaches to even talk to other schools about other jobs. That includes Texas, Memphis, West Virginia, Arizona State, NC State, and every other school. Why dont they ever exercise this right, you ask? Its in “the rules”, you say? Its bad business to let account managers leave, you say. Maybe worse than losing one client. Because no other coach, or account officer, would ever want to come work for you again. That’s why.

    The same as if you refused to allow a client to look elsewhere after the only face he ever knew was refused. Except its not the same. Oh, you’ll have the same bad rep among prospective clients, but it doesnt stop there. Its even worse. Because the governing board never enforces this rule when its even contested, so in the end not only do you look like a jack ass for trying to force the client to stay, but you lose the client on appeal anyway.

  23. Wulfpack 05/26/2006 at 4:52 PM #

    “The kid didn’t even afford Sidney Lowe the opportunity to meet with him face to face. (Does Seton Hall really have that many other kids right now to whom they are trying to give this extra scholarship?)”

    Am I missing something here? Can’t this statement be reversed and also make sense? As it appears to me NCSU hasn’t given Davis much of an opportunity to make his decision. Not that its anyone’s fault (surely Sid is doing everything he can do to become employed and certified)…but don’t go knocking a kid who has important decisions to make for his future.

  24. Dan 05/26/2006 at 4:55 PM #

    All of you that are concerned about how the staff is handling this situation need to listen to the audio interviews with Monte and Phil today. They are posted for free on Pack Pride.

    “We still have to release them and no one has been released. As you guys know there has been a conditional release but no one has been released. That could end up being something that we stick with. I don’t know yet. That’s going to be a decision of powers above me. I think Larry Davis is leaning toward Seton Hall. I know the New York papers are already reporting it, but that’s not done yet.”

    “That’s a key component from our administrative point of view. A conditional release, yes, but we’re expecting you to at least meet your new head coach. We felt like that was fair in terms of what we were giving them and what we were asking of them.”

  25. Wulfpack 05/26/2006 at 5:09 PM #

    “You may have just hit on something there. If these guys were to NC State for the single reason because of who was coaching at the time, then they don’t have any idea of what their new coach will be expecting of them anyway. I hope they all come, but if they can’t see the upside, maybe it is really nothing to fret over after all.”

    I’m calling flip-flop here…one day these guys are great recruits for the program and the next they stand for everything wrong with NCSU basketball. These are KIDS. They have FUTURES at stake. Give them a break. Sendek left, they agreed to play for HIM. They haven’t had a chance to meet to their new coach for a variety of circumstances. Don’t fault the kids. You’d want the same for your son in this situation.

    And I do think it is fair to say that hiring Lowe has been a huge headache in the short term. We are in limbo and it is all b/c of one man…and his name isn’t Sidney.

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