Holland: NC State 30 Years Ago

“There were no three better basketball programs in the country at that time than the NC State program, North Carolina and Maryland.”

* Terry Holland speaking of his first ACC Tournament at the University of Virginia

Wow. ^That is flabbergasting. I learn something new every day! Imagine my surprise when I learned that it was NOT INHERENT in the order of the world that Duke and Carolina are naturally always the greatest basketball programs ever. How can it be that this has not always been the case…and why are we constantly told that it should be accepted that it will always be the case?

There will be some folks that will want to respond to me with, “That was 30 years ago. Things change” without realizing that they are making much of the point of the Wolfpack faithful — things DO CHANGE.

But things only change if LEADERS are smart enough and talented enough to take actions to create positive change. In the absence of leadership, you have failure. That is what we have at NC State. Winners CREATE change and are positioned to take advantage of changes at the competition. People that are solely focused on building personal resumes and cashing fat checks usually are too content to strive for greatness. I guess I don’t blame them if they can figure out a way to get away with it.

The Carolina Example
Over the last decade, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s basketball program has been in so much turmoil that they have employed four different basketball coaches; at one point, the Tarheels had employed four coaches in seven years. But…of course…Herb Sendek shouldn’t be expected to compete with “Roy Williams” even though Williams has only been at Carolina for 3 years.

Defenders often refer to Herb Sendek’s “record against Carolina as only being slightly worse than Jim Valvano’s record”. It is interesting that the same crew that always has an excuse for everything, fails to point out that Valvano went head to head with Dean Smith…not 4 different coaches like Sendek. They also fail to reference the new basketball arena and other resources that Sendek has that V didn’t while competing against the Dean Dome. (Why did we build the Pig Palace, again?) They also fail to carve away V’s first 2 or 3 of years (when he went winless vs Dean) because “V was new”, a benefit that they provide Sendek for an entire five years of performance. Fascinating hypocrisy.

During Carolina’s transition decade, Maryland was able to play in two Final Fours and win a National Championship. Georgia Tech was able to win more NCAA Tournament games in a single season than Herb Sendek has in a decade. Wake Forest was successful in changing coaches and built a national program that achieved arguably their greatest seasons in history (capped by two weeks of a #1 ranking).

Why NOT NC State?

The immediate answer is because NC State doesn’t do anything to attempt to improve. It seems that the University is more than pleased with being on the bubble – just like we have been in 4 of our 5 consecutive NCAA Tournament bids that you hear so much about.

“The enemy of the best of the good.” – Anonymous

“I never worry about action; only inaction” – Anonymous

“You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don’t try” – Beverly Sills

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act…but a habit.” – Anonymous

“Yeah, doc, ya gotta help us! We’ve tried NOTHING, and we’re all out of ideas!” – The Simpsons

General NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Tradition

72 Responses to Holland: NC State 30 Years Ago

  1. Mr O 03/23/2006 at 4:41 PM #

    Why is it obvious that he isn’t getting everything out of the talent on the court? Herb has the 2nd or 3rd(not sure how it finished) winning percentage in ACC competition over the last 5 years.

    You are right that we don’t have to live with Herb forever. Of course, I don’t know of any coach who has been fired after making 5 straight NCAA tournaments either. That is what I can’t figure out. Does everyone dragging him through the mud expect us to do something that no other university has ever done? Maybe at UNC, Duke, UK or somewhere like that.

    I understand hoping Herb will move on. However, IMO dragging him through the mud daily is counter-productive to Herb getting another job and to our program if he comes back.

  2. ncsslim 03/23/2006 at 4:42 PM #

    Mr. O, you are insinuating our situation has quite a few limitations. What could possibly wrong with our arena (“good not great”). Aren’t we really searching here? Our limitations are mostly self-created, not inherent. By the way, who’s holding the “real” Mr. O captive? I liked him better…..

  3. MurphNCSU 03/23/2006 at 4:49 PM #

    The one accomplishment, 5 straight NCAA Tournaments, which ahs been only been matched by Duke.

    This is totally misleading. Only Duke and NCSU have beent to the last 5 NCAAs, because the only other ACC schools to EVER have any national success, with the exception of maryland, have had coaching changes in the last 5-6 years.

    UNC – Roy’s 4th year, but has won a NCAA
    UVA – Leito’s 1st year
    GT – Hewitt’s first year 2001, NCAA Final in 2004
    Wake – Prosser’s first year 2002

    Also, you can’t ignore the fact that Roy, Paul, and Skip have all had to deal with NBA defections. Something which Herb hasn’t had to deal with in the past 5 years of NCAA appearances.

  4. class of '74 03/23/2006 at 4:55 PM #

    Herb is the teflon coach to these fools, no criticism sticks. It’s all so easily explained away: injuries, Valvano, bad calls, poor shooting, more money, less pressure, Les, travel schedule, nobody else beats those guys, they have more Parade AA’s, they have more McD AA’s and on and on and on and on.

    You fools deserve exactly what is going to happen, and when 5 or 10 or 15 more years pass and Herb is still seeking his first banner just remember the people here who told you he wasn’t the right guy!

  5. Rick 03/23/2006 at 4:56 PM #

    “Why is it obvious that he isn’t getting everything out of the talent on the court? Herb has the 2nd or 3rd(not sure how it finished) winning percentage in ACC competition over the last 5 years.”

    Without even posting the statistics that VaWolf is the master of….
    If you cannot watch the pathetic offfense we run and not think we are not getting the most out of our players I am not sure of any other way to convince you.
    Not to mention the 5 TO debacle that was the BC game.
    Look at BC, we have out recruited them and they are performing better than we are.

  6. MurphNCSU 03/23/2006 at 5:00 PM #

    AGAIN, no one here expects Herb to get fired. Many of us aren’t asking for him to be fired ( although not that many tears would be shed for LEE ). We aren’t dragging him throught he mud either, we are simply debating his results ( RESULTS ) against what many people feel should be the results for the NCSTATE head coach.

    WHAT WE WANT!!!! is for anyone associated with the university/athletic dept. to come out and say what is actually expected of Herb, and his AMAZING recuiting classes of ’06 and ’07, over the next two years. That way we can actually assess Herb’s results against some EXPECTATIONS some point in the future.

    WHAT WE DONT WANT!!!! is more useless tripe about the general, totally nondescript, supposedly positive movement of the program, especially if it is again ( see 2001 ) based on recruits that haven’t proven that they will stay here let alone succeed.

  7. choppack 03/23/2006 at 5:14 PM #

    “Herb has the 2nd or 3rd(not sure how it finished) winning percentage in ACC competition over the last 5 years.”

    Actually, he’s in 5th place over the last 5 years. In the last 3 years, he’s passed Williams and Prosser, during that span, he’s in 3rd place.

    O – I see you saw my thread. I do understand the frustration, but in essence, our fanbase is asking Lee Fowler (a man who appears perfectly content to count his $$ and play a very low risk poker game) to be a trail-blazer. I can’t recall any coach who has been fired for performance (several have been fired for off-court issues) since the field expanded to 64 during a streak of 5 straight NCAA tournaments. Every pack fan should understand this – if Lee Fowler could make direct cohesive points, he’d bring this up. I really believe his leadership is half the problem. He needs to state clearly that he understands the fans frustrations – the last 2 coaches w/ at least 10 years tenure won a national championship. He needs to state that he believes that the next 5 years will show the same improvement over years 6-10, that years 6-10 had from 1-5. He doesn’t – he resorts to attacking the fans. Whether he knows it or not, he adds a lot of fuel to the fire.

  8. DCM 03/23/2006 at 5:50 PM #

    Wow. I think choppack really hit it there. Note also that besides being 3rd over the last three years, the last three recruiting classes have been dramatically better than two previous ones. And the 2007 class is already looking good.

    We all want State to win. Some of believe Herb can do it (as I do), and want to see State win. Some of us think he cant, and just want to State win.

    Now, I think where I really agree with choppack is that I cant understand how anyone thinks Lee Fowler is capable of bringing in the right coach or making any correct decision regarding anything. The guy cant even make Herb backers happy the way he attempts to back Herb…or Chuck for that matter. The Volleyball team is like the bad news bears. The soccer team, although better this year, has been a perennial lower tier team, etc, etc, etc.

    I think the biggest mistake anyone could make is to trust Lee Fowler with anything. Outside of the big two sports, is there a culture of success in NC State athletics?

  9. MurphNCSU 03/23/2006 at 6:01 PM #

    What should our record be next year in conference? When we are .500 or less in conference next year can we finally all agree that the progress has been stalled? And I refer to our regular season schedule, not what the end result is when we beat someone on THURSDAY and maybe even Friday.

    I just really need some metrics we can discuss after next season. At this point is seems like we’ve been having the same conversation for the past 6 years. Let’s lock down some reasonable expectations for next years team and popularize them with the notion that there will be no acceptable excuse for failing to meet them. No excuses, not any of the classics or “whole body of work”.

  10. DCM 03/23/2006 at 6:12 PM #

    Murph is right. I think we should expect good things.

    Look at next year’s team. We lose Cam, Bethel, and Ilian.

    Bethel: Lets be real about what he has been. A streaky spot up shooter. Great sometimes. Dismal others. We have a plethora of Tony Bethel’s.

    Ilian: Brandon Costner is going to be a marked improvement over Ilian.

    Cam: Ok, Cam is good. Tough to replace. But Grant has showed promise at the end of the year. I think he has the chops to do it.

    The line up should be Engin, Gavin, Ced, Brandon and (Bethel replacement).

    Im hoping for Fells to get down on D and stop fouling because he is good. But if Larry Davis can do it, fine by me. Either way, replacing Bethel, unfortunately, wont be hard.

    We should be better next year, and we should expect to be better. If we arent better, I fully expect to have this conversation then. However, actual record is meaningless. We could be 11-5 but worse or 9-7 and better. We can be 6-10 and better though, if even 7-9. I do expect something like last year though, with the best basketball being played at the end. Give Brandon and The Bethel Replacement a chance.

  11. DCM 03/23/2006 at 6:13 PM #

    oops. I meant to say we CANT be 6-10 and better though. LOL. I would deserve to be flamed for that.

  12. TPack 03/23/2006 at 6:24 PM #

    Herb could be successful if he plays freshman more, and changes the offense a little. Incorparate blocking out and running the court into it. If he did that a few years ago, Cam Bennerman would have been all-acc. Ced Simmons needs to be used inside, where he can dominate. Instead with this offense, you can often see him playing 20, 25 feet away from the basket, where he isn’t effective.

    Herb can recruit a little. While he doesn’t get all he can out of his players, he brought in some great talents in Hodge, Bennerman (underrated), and the Ced Simmons class. In he was a better coach, Bethel would have been the PG that brought us to greatness. But he still got him to transfer in. Recruiting he can do a little. He needs to work on his coaching. Any other road on Tobacco Road, and many throughout the country can do more with this same talent. Some are able to do it with less (see mid-majors in the sweet 16). George Mason is in the Sweet 16, and they beat both Michigan State and UNC in the tourney. If you want to say that they are as talented as we are then you should check yourself, yet they were able to do something we “aren’t supposed to be able to do”, compete with (even win against) UNC. We have the talent. We have the arena. Coach them up and we will beat UNC.

  13. DCM 03/23/2006 at 6:33 PM #

    TPack, I agree with a lot of that (ggod points with GMU) except that Tony Bethel was ever a PG. He wasnt. He’s always been a scorer. And I know Herb tells the media he doesnt need it, but I believe that is said in order to keep spirits up. Herb goes after dedicated PG’s every single year becaus the teams he models his offense after, the Sac Kings and NJ Nets, have outstanding PG’s, Kidd and Bibby. Note: pass first guys.

    Also, I would say that the offense has nothing to do with blocking out on defense. We arent in the spread on defense. There is no Princeton Defense. Man to man is easy to rebound out of. You dont need to find your man. You should be on him. Put a forearm in his chest. Rebounding on defense is fundamentals and desire. It is an area where Sendek needs to take some personal accountabilty and fix. Rumor has it that Larry Harris is gone to Duquense this year. Larry is a great guy, but it might be a chance to bring in some new blood to work with the bigs on their post play.

  14. MurphNCSU 03/23/2006 at 6:41 PM #

    DCM, I do expect good things next year. Just good enough, not approaching great, ever. That is what many of us have come to expect.

    What I was asking for, nay plaeading for, was some defined EXPECTAIONS for next years team. Not some vague range of records.

  15. Jeff 03/23/2006 at 7:02 PM #

    Note also that besides being 3rd over the last three years, the last three recruiting classes have been dramatically better than two previous ones

    WHAT?

    One of those “two previous ones” was SI’s #3 class in the country.

  16. MurphNCSU 03/23/2006 at 7:35 PM #

    Jeff,

    I think DCM means that 2005,2006,2007 are much better than the previous two. You have to remember that next years recruits and the 2007 recruits have already restored the program to greatness with the sig on their LOI.

  17. Cardiac95 03/23/2006 at 8:44 PM #

    Just for general information…..

    Roughly 70% of Herb’s recruits have been Top 100 or better. That’s enough to play 5 on 5 with nothing but Top 100 players on a 14 man squad.

    Are we really to believe that having an entire roster composed of Top 100 players is really the key to taking that next mythical step?

    It seems that even Duke & unc keep those 2-3 scholarships for the sole purpose of “Team GPA Enhancement”. That hasn’t exactly hindered their success at all.

    Herb’s Worst Ever Transfer Record in the History of ACC Basketball, would suggest that he would not have the relational or managerial skills to keep the egos of a team full of Top 100 recruits in check long enough to even reap any potential benefits.

    So sorry…..please try again.

  18. VaWolf82 03/23/2006 at 9:33 PM #

    He needs to state clearly that he understands the fans frustrations – the last 2 coaches w/ at least 10 years tenure won a national championship. He needs to state that he believes that the next 5 years

    In 2001, Lee said that Herb would be winning championships in the near future. What Lee says doesn’t matter one way or the other. What he does matters…but unfortunately it appears that he is more interested in talking than anything else.

  19. TPack 03/23/2006 at 10:42 PM #

    “In 2001, Lee said that Herb would be winning championships in the near future. What Lee says doesn’t matter one way or the other. What he does matters…but unfortunately it appears that he is more interested in talking than anything else.”

    You know Lee will probably act like the last 5 years didn’t exist if (Big if here, as I can’t see it the way he coaches now) Herb were to win a championship. So he would have won a championship in say Herb’s 7th year in Lee Fowler Years, 17th actual. (completely random number).

  20. Cardiff Giant 03/24/2006 at 7:53 AM #

    Is Sendek a good recruiter?

    I think he’s FLATT awesome.

  21. NCSU'79 03/24/2006 at 8:39 AM #

    The Sendek/Fowler Basket Ball Strategy:

    Wait for Roy & Mike to retire

  22. Tommy Underwood 04/05/2006 at 10:16 AM #

    Until NC State gets a coach that can recruit, they will NEVER be able to compete with the likes of UNC, Duke, or Boston College. Hopefully the powers that be will read some of these statements and hire a top tier coach. WE DON’T WANT OR NEED THE COACH FROM WINTHROP OR GEORGE MASON! Bring in Rick Barnes, Tubby Smith, Jay Wright, or Jamie Dixon. Hell, get Bobby Cremins to come out of retirement but please, please, please don’t hire a coach just because they had ONE good year. Let’s see where the George Mason coach takes them next year. Wolfpack fans are tired of mediocore, flat, and inconsistent seasons.

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