Holland: NC State 30 Years Ago

“There were no three better basketball programs in the country at that time than the NC State program, North Carolina and Maryland.”

* Terry Holland speaking of his first ACC Tournament at the University of Virginia

Wow. ^That is flabbergasting. I learn something new every day! Imagine my surprise when I learned that it was NOT INHERENT in the order of the world that Duke and Carolina are naturally always the greatest basketball programs ever. How can it be that this has not always been the case…and why are we constantly told that it should be accepted that it will always be the case?

There will be some folks that will want to respond to me with, “That was 30 years ago. Things change” without realizing that they are making much of the point of the Wolfpack faithful — things DO CHANGE.

But things only change if LEADERS are smart enough and talented enough to take actions to create positive change. In the absence of leadership, you have failure. That is what we have at NC State. Winners CREATE change and are positioned to take advantage of changes at the competition. People that are solely focused on building personal resumes and cashing fat checks usually are too content to strive for greatness. I guess I don’t blame them if they can figure out a way to get away with it.

The Carolina Example
Over the last decade, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s basketball program has been in so much turmoil that they have employed four different basketball coaches; at one point, the Tarheels had employed four coaches in seven years. But…of course…Herb Sendek shouldn’t be expected to compete with “Roy Williams” even though Williams has only been at Carolina for 3 years.

Defenders often refer to Herb Sendek’s “record against Carolina as only being slightly worse than Jim Valvano’s record”. It is interesting that the same crew that always has an excuse for everything, fails to point out that Valvano went head to head with Dean Smith…not 4 different coaches like Sendek. They also fail to reference the new basketball arena and other resources that Sendek has that V didn’t while competing against the Dean Dome. (Why did we build the Pig Palace, again?) They also fail to carve away V’s first 2 or 3 of years (when he went winless vs Dean) because “V was new”, a benefit that they provide Sendek for an entire five years of performance. Fascinating hypocrisy.

During Carolina’s transition decade, Maryland was able to play in two Final Fours and win a National Championship. Georgia Tech was able to win more NCAA Tournament games in a single season than Herb Sendek has in a decade. Wake Forest was successful in changing coaches and built a national program that achieved arguably their greatest seasons in history (capped by two weeks of a #1 ranking).

Why NOT NC State?

The immediate answer is because NC State doesn’t do anything to attempt to improve. It seems that the University is more than pleased with being on the bubble – just like we have been in 4 of our 5 consecutive NCAA Tournament bids that you hear so much about.

“The enemy of the best of the good.” – Anonymous

“I never worry about action; only inaction” – Anonymous

“You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don’t try” – Beverly Sills

“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act…but a habit.” – Anonymous

“Yeah, doc, ya gotta help us! We’ve tried NOTHING, and we’re all out of ideas!” – The Simpsons

General NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Tradition

72 Responses to Holland: NC State 30 Years Ago

  1. Mike 03/23/2006 at 1:52 PM #

    My point was the minutes for the freshman prove they dont get significant minutes. Wilkins tops the list, and the only defense he ever played was on our guys if they tried to shoot instead of passing to him.

    My point was meant for all those who say WTNY. We have been saying that for years, and every year there is another excuse why we have to again WTNY. Next year never gets here, and we cannot count on freshman to get us to next year. Just does not happen.

  2. DCM 03/23/2006 at 1:56 PM #

    Hilarious that Dan Werner was compared to Mike O’Donnel. Im not sure who to repsond to that without getting this deleted for being insulting.

    Link

    This is by people who know NJ hoops. Note the category at the bottom of the page. They rank Werner 2nd in the state ahead of Duke’s “all world” Brian Zoubek. The best way to learn about these recruits is to read the articles written by people who watch them play. Not to randomly compare them to past recruits for the purpose of flaming.

  3. Mike 03/23/2006 at 2:11 PM #

    I did not compare Werner to O’Donnell. All I know is Werner has been called a “great fit to Herb’s system”. Great, all we need is another person who will pop 3’s all day and not rebound.

  4. topoftheorder 03/23/2006 at 2:21 PM #

    This is NO defense of Sendek…I hope people are peppering the mailboxes of all of the powers-that-be with the analysis that is being generated here every day…and I hope we can all figure out how to pull off an LTR revolt!!

    That said, I think a lot of people with good intentions are missing the boat with regard to (1) competing with Duke-UNC, and (2) recruiting.

    With regard to Duke-UNC, I think those two programs ARE a lot more powerful than any two programs in history due to the $$$$$ that the NCAA, Nike, and ESPN have invested in them. No two programs have ever played and been telecast on all of the ESPN networks at the same time. It is RIDICULOUS and UNFAIR. That said, Duke-UNC’s power is an irrelevant and useless discussion—for now—in the Herb debate. The problem with Herb, right now, is that he can’t march through Vandy & Wisconsin when it matters!! The problem with Herb, right now, is that he can’t produce the same national success or exposure as Maryland, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, and now BC have over the last ten years!! Duke & UNC are the least of our worries when we can’t even outshine Vandy, Wisky, Mary, GT, WF, and BC!!

    With regard to recruiting, anyone can pull out recruiting rankings and say the talent isn’t changing based on rankings, but that is not the whole story. Sendek’s biggest problem is not RECRUITING RANKINGS, his problems are TEAM CONSTRUCTION and TEAM MANAGEMENT. Herb has had a bunch of Top 100 players over the years, but, with very few exceptions, they have all been combo forwards (mostly guys who just wanted to throw elbows in the old days and now mostly guys who just like to shoot the 3), taller slicing guards that have shaky or no jumpshot (Grundy, Hodge, Grant), and set shooting guards that can’t create their own shots (Archie, Engin, Tony). He has brought in no one who even wanted to stay in the post (until Ced) and no one who could handle and create (until Chris Wright, who won’t be here for another year). That’s poor team construction on Herb’s part. Kenny Inge and Damon Thornton had Top 100 rankings, but they would rather fight you than beat you on the scoreboard. Hell, Kenny Inge would rather scowl at Adam Harrington, resident primadonna, than pass him the ball. They were oil and water just like Hodge & Powell became later (Hodge & Cam had issues as well). That’s poor team management on Herb’s part. The kids we are getting now do seem to be better characters and, as a result, have the potential to play better together—especially when the pg gap is finally filled in, but that is a mute debate. Herb hasn’t shown enough ability to put a team together and manage it over the last 10 years to create any confidence that positive change will occur based on any perceived change in recruiting.

    (And if we are going to have to put up with Herb after this season, the he better get his ASS out there and put a REAL top class together for 2007…NOT just one good player and a bunch of role players (the Hodge class)…We have already seen that that doesn’t get you very far!!)

  5. DCM 03/23/2006 at 2:21 PM #

    You are right Mike. You didnt. The site admin did.

    You make a lot valid points as well. I agree with you that the three things that must get better (and I think will get better) are:

    1) The point
    2) Rebounding
    3) Integrating Freshmen

    Now, there are several solutions to every problem. I agree, one solution is to bring in a new coach. Another solution in to bring in better players and learn from mistakes. Im sure there are other solutions as well that are all valid.

    It is just my humble opinion that Herb is more than capable of these things. The point position is crucial to this offense. Herb wont criticize his kids publically and say he doesnt have the talent, but he also has recruited point pretty hard (Shakur, Gilchrist, Sosa…now Wright (finally)). We were best with Hodge playing the point. Worst decision Herb ever made was not developing Hodge at that position. Rebounding is obvious. And the spread offense is irrelevant when you are playing man on D. And as Engin taught us all this year, legs get tired and having freshmen contribute is important.

    When I look at the coaching landscape right now, I just dont see another available coach out there that can bring in the same level of talent as Herb is doing the last three years.

  6. class of '74 03/23/2006 at 2:25 PM #

    I must laugh when people get excited about high school kids and projecting them to the next level. In my life of memories I only recall two guys in our school’s history that were can’t miss straight out of high school and actually lived up to the billing. They were: Tommy Burleson and the incomparable DT.
    And both of them played on the frosh teams before being thrown into the ACC wars. Although DT was first team ACC calibre even as a freshman. It was the only time I can recall people coming to watch the freshmen play and then leaving before the varsity game would start.

    So forgive me when I say I’ll believe it when I see them play in the ACC.

  7. Mike 03/23/2006 at 2:40 PM #

    Thanks TOP for a great laugh. Needed that. Those days were interesting with Thornton and Inge throwing elbows, but at least glad to see someone would. I’m out, need to work, have spent too much time here lately 🙂

  8. DCM 03/23/2006 at 2:41 PM #

    Ask my doc. I have 20/15 vision. Im like a damn hawk.

  9. ThePack 03/23/2006 at 2:48 PM #

    Jeff, why did it say my last comment was filtered? I haven’t been posting spam

    SFN: Don’t have a clue. Sorry. Our software is quirkly sometimes.

  10. Rick 03/23/2006 at 2:50 PM #

    DCM you are absolutely wrong about the previous recruiting.
    Adam Harrington (Parade all-american), Keith Bean (Parade AA);

    Damien Wilkins (McD’s all-american), Marshall Williams (Parade all-american), Clifford Crawford (top 50);

    Scooter Sherrill (MCD’s all-american), Marcus Melvin (top 75), Michael Bell (top 100)

    Julius Hodge (MCD’s all-american), Levi Watkins (Parade all-american), Josh Powell (top 75)

    Let’s look at the classes

    The Inge, Kelley, Miller class (Sendek’s first recruiting class) was ranked #9 in the country by Prepstar Recruiting. I attended a press conference at a Wolfpack Club meeting we had at Angus Barn where everyone was just raving about it. We had the 2nd ranked class in the league that year behind Duke (Brand, Avery, Burgess, etc.)

    The Wilkins, Marshall Williams, Cliff Crawford class was ranked # 7 in the country.

    The Sherrill, Melvin, Bell class was thought to be the best in-state haul of anyone that year and was Chris Wilcox away from probably being a #1 nationally ranked class.

    The Hodge, Watkins, Powell class was ranked #7 in the country (there was an article about this one in Sports Illustrated).

    The past recruiting has been every bit as good as now, in fact it has been better.
    It is just another baseless excuse.

  11. ThePack 03/23/2006 at 3:03 PM #

    I support what you say Rick but I will give people this. After the Hodge class, recruiting did suffer for a couple of years.

    Cam Bennerman, Dominic Mejia were rated 3 and 2 star players by Rivals.com in 2002. With that years class rated as 2 stars.

    Atsur was only rated a 3 star player by Rivals.com in 2003.

    Those were two down years recruiting wise.

  12. ThePack 03/23/2006 at 3:03 PM #

    meant to be *support*

  13. DCM 03/23/2006 at 3:11 PM #

    Rick, again you prove my point. Herb’s been here 9 years. The last two classes were good. That leaves 7 years. There were 4 regarded classes during time? That is exactly what Im talking about including the problems with transfers. Four good coupled with 3 bad. Top teir basketball schools cannot afford that many slips in recruiting.

    Look, Im not making excuses for Sendek’s early failures at all. He did not recruit well nationally on a consisten basis. We had problems with chemistry. Those are documented facts. This year’s senior class even stated where the program was when they arrived. Especially Hodge and Evtimov. Sendek has admitted as much himself. Then the recruiting slipped again after Hodge, but Hodge’s successes combined with Marcus Melvin and Scooter Sherrill allowed Sendek to keep his job, but we felt the hit last year and to a point this year. We now have three recruiting classes in a row and most likely four. That has never been done before and it is you that is PLAIN WRONG if you think otherwise….Angus Barn or not (hilarious btw).

    The time to fire Sendek was before the Hodge class. That was when the program was still at “blank slate” status even with Sendek being here a few years. (Ironically, the football team is at that exact position RIGHT NOW.) But now Sendek has done everything a coach can be asked to do in rebuilding a program. People complain about the wait. Well, they should have been louder pre-Hodge. But we made a commitment to Sendek to rebuild at that point, and he has fulfilled his end with 5 straight NCAA teams and three straight amazing recruiting classes.

  14. Rick 03/23/2006 at 3:16 PM #

    “Look, Im not making excuses for Sendek’s early failures at all. He did not recruit well nationally on a consisten basis. We had problems with chemistry. Those are documented facts. ”

    So are you changing your argument? Now the problems are chemistry?

    You stated that recruiting is better now. You stated we did not recruit nationally well. I am showing you (with facts) that what you say is wrong. We had 4 classes in a row that equaled or bettered the last two classes. The class coming in next year is on a level with the Cam Bennerman class. So again you are wrong.

  15. Mr O 03/23/2006 at 3:25 PM #

    I saw Scooter Sherrill in HS and realized he was overrated. He wasn’t a better prospect than Cameron Bennerman (who I also saw in HS) who was a top 80 recruit coming out of HS.

    Herb has obviously played freshman when they have been needed and when they can help the team. There are plenty of examples going back to Thornton, Kelly, Inge, Grundy, Wilkins, M. Williams, Hodge, Evtimov, Atsur and Brackman.

    If a guy can help the team win, then a coach is going to play him whether or not your name is Herb Sendek or Roy Williams. Coaches want to win not commit career suicide.

    Cameron Bennerman’s class didn’t have two top 100 players. Next year’s class does (Werner and Larry Davis).

  16. newswolf 03/23/2006 at 3:26 PM #

    Is Sendek a good recruiter?

  17. newswolf 03/23/2006 at 3:28 PM #

    Also I would like to borrow Terry Holland to be our AD for about 3 weeks

  18. DCM 03/23/2006 at 3:34 PM #

    Rick, you need to recheck your facts man. Its almost laughable.

    Ive never made excuses for the early failures. Never. They rest squarely on the inabiltiy to recruit consistently and in team chemistry, which goes solely to Sendek.

    But we agreed to let Sendek rebuild with arrival of Hodge. Hodge saved Sendek more than most know. If Sendek stays and succeeds, then Julius Hodge may well be one of the top 3 recruits ever at NC State. Hodge shielded Sendek from shakey recruiting in the years following the same way Mario and Phil shielded Chuck. But we made the committment then and it is paying off now. This a horrible time to jump ship. Its almost like you guys are scared to succeed. The support Sendek gets from the national media is due to the last few years. You wouldnt have heard that support in 1999. He is doing the job now.

    I wouldnt make the same arguement in football. Performance is down. Recruiting is down. The level of athlete is less than it was. In basketball terms, it is 1999 for the football team. FoxSports called Chuck the most overrated coach in the ACC. This next recruiting class for Chuck is everything. EVERYTHING.

  19. DCM 03/23/2006 at 3:37 PM #

    I just want to make something clear before people get the wrong idea here.

    I would rather have a beer, and do have beers, with most feverish of Herb Sendek bashers than anyone who wears any shade of blue.

    Everyone knows that everyone who spends 5 minutes here is a pretty die hard fan.

  20. ThePack 03/23/2006 at 3:47 PM #

    DCM, why do you keep bringing up football? There is no point in talking about that right now. Give people time, if he doesn’t perform this year, he will be hearing the same talk Sendek is now.

  21. DCM 03/23/2006 at 3:52 PM #

    Pack, you might be right. Im sorry. I just find the comparison uncanny. Timing is crucial. I just think people need to be totally aware of the entire picture.

    This season was not a “bad” season. Are we all happy? Hell no. I guarantee you Herb isnt happy either. But the wins and the talent level is better every year now.

    Can you say the same for the football program? Now I dont want to fire anyone b/c I am intrigued by Trestman. But if it wasnt for him, Im not sure where the silver lining would be.

  22. DCM 03/23/2006 at 3:58 PM #

    That reminds me of the old question:

    If a police siren goes off in Kansas, and there isnt any around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  23. class of '74 03/23/2006 at 4:11 PM #

    No to Huggins but I would like to see a real coach not some enigma like we now have!

  24. Mr O 03/23/2006 at 4:30 PM #

    Is Sendek a good recruiter?

    That is an interesting question and a quite complex question. I would argue that during his first 5 years he was not a very good recruiter. He signed some highly rated prospects (A. Harrington, M. Williams, D. Wilkins, A. Miller, Inge, Thornton, Kelly – all top 60 or so players). However, he struggled recruiting guys that fit together, that could play for him and that could succeed in general at NC State (athletically, academically, and socially).

    Since he brought in the class of Julius Hodge, I think he his recruiting has improved tremendously. His won/loss record has improved significantly and has at least one accomplishment (5 straight NCAAs) that has only been matched by Duke in the ACC. I think he does a much better job of identifying players that can be successful within his program and players that give him a chance to be successful at NC State. He has many less transfers the last few years than his first 5 or 6.

    It hasn’t all come together yet and it may or may not ever come together. The same could be said about any coach we could hire. Succeeding at NC State at the level most of us want is against the odds. It is probably more likely that Herb or any coach we would replace him with won’t succeed to the level that NC State fans want.

    As far as the original question though, I think Herb’s overall recruiting in the last 5 classes would put him only behind Coach K and Doherty/Williams. Hewitt dropped off significantly, but he has some big time players coming in next year and the year after. Maybe Hewitt should be considered better than Herb also over the last 5 classes.

    I was having a discussion during our game against Cal with a friend of mine. I said that I could care less whether Herb stays or goes, but that the number 1 thing we should consider in hiring our next coach is his ability to recruit. Texas simply outclassed us in terms of athleticism and talent. We have good talent, but we simply aren’t at the level of the top teams nationally at this point.

    Recruiting at NC State is extremely difficult. For in-state recruits, you have Duke(Shavlik), UNC(R. Terry), Maryland(C. Wilcox), UVa(C. Alexander), Wake Forest(Paul, Gray, Williams, etc…) and GT(Morrow) to compete against. Heck, you even have NC guys at Miami(A. King).

    No matter what anyone says, our job is an extremely difficult job. However, we do have a somewhat relevant tradition, a good arena (not great), a top notch practice facility, and a solid natural recruiting base despite our competition. RDU is a great area to recruit to, but I would put it behind DC or Atlanta. Our job is a lot tougher than UNC or Duke, but probably on an even level with GT and Maryland who we have been better than the last couple of years.

    So overally, I think Herb is a good recruiter. I can’t predict the future if his recruiting will ever get to the level that we need at NC State to really compete with Duke and UNC. He has signed as many big-time players as anyone in the ACC not coaching at UNC or Duke over the last few years.

    However, if we do change coaches, then the next hire should be all about recruiting, recruiting and recruiting.

  25. Herb 03/23/2006 at 4:34 PM #

    I don’t buy the line that just because we gave Herb a second chance 5 years ago then we have to live with him forever and all time.

    There’s no use debating recruiting – it’s glaringly obvious that Herb isn’t even remotely getting everything possible out of the talent on the court. Which would bode well for a replacement coach, you “firing Herb would immediately and irrevocably destroy our program for the next hundred years people.”

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