Duke Won’t Be Perfect

As one of our most favorite bloggers highlights tonight, Duke is not going 16-0 and Florida State is not going to the NIT.

I’d like to discuss the Blue Devils for a moment in an attempt to put an NC State ‘spin’ on this topic for a second.

In the various debates amongst Wolfpackers, one of the primary mantras of the NC State Excuse Squad is that it is perfectly acceptable for NC State to continuously lose to Duke in basketball “since Duke is so good and since everyone loses to Duke.” Of course, these general statements conveniently ignore any use of statistics or information to accurately compare NC State’s rate of losing with “everyone elses”.

Seriously, since “everybody loses to Duke” is the generally accepted original thought of the day consistently proposed by the excuse-mongers, then surely State’s record vs Duke is as bad as everyone else’s whom we claim to be “competitive” against? Actually, since many State fans claim to have a better program than so many of our ACC bretheren, then shouldn’t our record against Duke be at least little better than everyone else’s record?

Did you know that North Carolina, Maryland, Wake Forest, and Florida State have won more games against Duke in the regular season than NC State has in the Herb Sendek era? Even lowly Virginia (who has employed three different coaches in that time frame) has as many regular season wins vs the Blue Devils as NC State (2 wins). Both Clemson and Georgia Tech are only one game behind the Pack and Cavs. (Note: Clemson had a 4-1 record vs Duke over a couple of year period when Rick Barnes was coaching at Clemson.)

So, in the Herb Sendek decade, NC State ranks next to last in the ACC in number of regular season wins vs Duke.

NC State won an ACC Tournament game vs the Blue Devils in Herb Sendek’s first season (1996-1997). This boosts the Pack’s total win count vs Duke in the last 10 years to 3. Unfortunately, State has lost a disproportionate number of ACC Tournament games vs Duke in the ACC (total of 5), dropping State’s total record vs the Devils in the Herb Sendek era to 3-21 (12.5%).

Since no other team in the ACC has played Duke as much as State in the ACC Tournament, then only Clemson and Georgia Tech have winning percentages below that of NC State in the Herb Sendek era.

BUT…surely everyone in Wolfpack nation knows has heard that things are going to get better if you only have some patience. You just wait until next year…or the next. It will happen if we just close our eyes and hope long enough. Perhaps even your children may be alive when it does.

General NCS Basketball

60 Responses to Duke Won’t Be Perfect

  1. Sam '92 03/02/2006 at 9:29 AM #

    picking up on the $$$ thread, simply firing herb (or chuck, for that matter) wouldn’t be enough

    unless there is systemic change – a re-alignment of priorities in the athletic department that makes national contention the mission and develops a plan on getting there – the next coach will be chosen with the same criteria as the last one and we won’t get anywhere

    such a change is clearly not coming from within the athletic department; the only realistic catalys is from big donors; whether or how they get it together beats me, but here’s hopin’ something happens

  2. Clarksa 03/02/2006 at 9:41 AM #

    If we played Duke at home this year, maybe we could have beat them…but we’ll never know.

  3. BJD95 03/02/2006 at 10:03 AM #

    Please quit with the strawman of putting words in our mouth that we think Herb “sucks.” I think he’s a pretty good coach. I can still want more than that. A coach doesn’t have to suck to be encouraged to move on.

    Again, ACCT title or Elite Eight, and I will consider that as evidence that Sendek is maturing beyond a “pretty good” coach and can be a good to very good one. Otherwise, this season will be a disappointment and the questions will continue.

    The big money donors love Sendek. He has been smart enough to know where his bread is buttered (unlike Chuck), and he’s built up lots of loyalty. The only way Sendek ever leaves is if he wants a fresh start somewhere else, where he might not get as much criticism.

    Back to last night’s games – in my mind, they cemented Roy Williams as ACC Coach of the Year. For the “real” media voters, the upcoming Duke/UNC game might still be the deciding factor. But it shouldn’t be.

  4. Jim 03/02/2006 at 10:36 AM #

    I’m amazed that the ACC refs couldn’t come up with a key FSU technical or big Duke non-call to shift momentum back to Duke. I didn’t see the game so I’m just at a loss how the refs could have let this happen. Surely heads will roll.

  5. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 10:51 AM #

    And this years Duke squad , although highly ranked all season, is not one of Duke’s all time best. This was the season to move up in the ACC and get Duke as well IMO.

  6. BJD95 03/02/2006 at 11:08 AM #

    Duke is being treated like a normal team ever since the big midseason blowup after the phantom FSU technical and blown call against BC. And Vitale and teh ESPN foofs can talk on and on about how “sick” it makes them to hear everybody “whine” about frontrunners like Duke and the Yankees (Vitale also likes them, big shock). But since this public controversy erupted, things have definitely changed for the better.

    It was Duke in huge foul trouble last night, and FSU going to the foul line repeatedly. What a strange sight to behold.

  7. dan 03/02/2006 at 11:41 AM #

    Jeff-

    No one can justify a 3-21 record against a main rival. It sucks. No one is going to argue with that.

    Jeff: Dan, this the last time I am going to say it. Get over yourself and your desire to ask “what ist he point” of EVERY entry that I make. If you don’t understand or like it, please allow me to direct you to http://www.blogger.com

  8. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 11:42 AM #

    The question from last night should be: Where has this FSU team been all season? They have been part time performers this year.

  9. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 11:49 AM #

    Dan,
    Is it wrong to question performance? Or is that too negative?

  10. dan 03/02/2006 at 11:59 AM #

    Class of ’74:

    3-21 blows. Especially against the guys down the street.

    I don’t disagree with that at all. Who in there right mind would?

    I guess I don’t see the question, or point of the post. I would have much preferred the author to address a relevant question, like “Should the coach be fired because we can’t beat Duke?”

  11. BJD95 03/02/2006 at 12:25 PM #

    This is a place to analyze and discuss the performance of NC State’s athletic teams. Sometimes that comes with criticism. So be it.

  12. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 12:43 PM #

    Dan:
    How about this for a question: Should we keep a coach who has underperformed Everett Case, Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano in the overall ACC records as well as head to head against Duke and UNC?

  13. Sam '92 03/02/2006 at 1:32 PM #

    right on ’74

    when did mediocrity become acceptable? if acceptable is even the right word, there seem to be a lot of people out there talking about what a great coach herb is, maybe mediocrity is now cause for applause

  14. MrTnNC 03/02/2006 at 1:37 PM #

    Interesting. Do other AD’s think as much of Herb’s abilities as many Pack fans seem to? If so, where have all the offers for him to step into a better or just different situation been? Surely, they’d have to believe that he’s available, considering all the ‘static’ that has been raised over the past few years. What I have seen is no demand, no interest, and token (outside) support. Can someone with deeper info correct me here?

  15. dan 03/02/2006 at 1:40 PM #

    Class:

    I agree, good question. But let’s take the opinion out of it and keep it on point with the original topic:

    So, another question : What is the historical impact of a poor (or absymal if you prefer) record against a primary rival in regards to a coaches job.

    For example: take coaches who have been fired, and plot their years-at-job vs record against rival. It’d be interesting to see where Sendek falls on that curve. I wish I had the time and data-access to follow through that question. In fact, this site seems to do a good job at trying to address these kinds of questions.

    What isn’t clear to me is the original posters point. I can’t imagine anyone argues (or anyone worth the authors time) that 3-21 against Duke is even sniffing distance to quality. So why?

  16. RickJ 03/02/2006 at 1:45 PM #

    I think the majority of the criticism found here of Sendek is valid and he certainly hasn’t won at the levels of Case, Sloan & V but I still don’t think we should fire him. There are also valid criticisms of Case, Sloan & V that don’t apply to Sendek for which he should be applauded.

  17. VaWolf82 03/02/2006 at 1:49 PM #

    For example: take coaches who have been fired, and plot their years-at-job vs record against rival.

    0 for 7 years got State a new FB coach.

  18. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 2:03 PM #

    ^Good one. 7 x 0= ?

    Different sport but perfect example: Ohio State and John Cooper. Could not beat Michigan but he did beat just about everyone else. Do you think they miss John Cooper at Ohio State right now? The answer is NO!

  19. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 2:20 PM #

    Kudos to MrTnNC. That’s an excellent point, where are all of the offers?

  20. Sammy Kent 03/02/2006 at 2:39 PM #

    Hmmmm, Barnes afraid of Carolina? I guess that’s why he was ready to bodyslam Dean Smith when he had to go against him the first time and got tired of Dean’s crap. Scared of Dook? How many coaches can you name that 1. won his first ever ACC game 2. with only eight players on scholarship 3. on the road 4. against Dook and 5. Mike Krzyzewski 6. who was sporting a team that had just finished second in the nation the year before? It’s a very short list; in fact it’s a list of one. Guess who.

  21. Jon Smith 03/02/2006 at 3:07 PM #

    Sammy , don’t you think you left out a few relevant facts about that Duke team that Barnes beat?

    Like the fact that they were horrible? They only won 2 ACC games that year.

  22. Jeff 03/02/2006 at 3:23 PM #

    There is always an excuse. Always a rationalization. Always something to couch every event.

  23. class of '74 03/02/2006 at 3:46 PM #

    ^And you forgot Chuck!

  24. Astral Rain 03/02/2006 at 4:00 PM #

    Valid points, but two things have to be taken into consideration

    a) Small Sample size. 11 games is the most anyone has played against Duke in this era

    b) The really crappy state of the program from the Les Robinson era.
    Unlike the other coaches mentioned, Sendek got left with an empty cabinet- one that takes 5 years to recover from. Also, it’s a lot harder to build a dynasty these days then it was in the 70s or 80s, where fewer schools were competing, and you could stockpile more talent.

    What State really needs right now is an upset in the tourney, and an Elite 8 run to get some attention…

  25. VaWolf82 03/02/2006 at 5:52 PM #

    Sendek got left with an empty cabinet – one that takes 5 years to recover from.

    Small nitpick. It took Sendek five years to “recover”. There are alot of coaches that have done a whole lot more in a lot less time.

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