On the Record – ACC Title Expectations

General On the Record36

So, I posted an entry today that had been sitting unfinished in my drafts for almost 8 months in an attempt to make a pretty simple point about the overall state of the NC State Athletics Department by using the “highlights” of the 2004-2005 athletics season.

Some of the conversation around the topic was getting interesting, but unfortunately the entry unleashed a storm of comments unrelated to the topic. As much as many people won’t choose to believe it — I absolutely despise conversations that turn so sour. Therefore, I wanted to carve out all of the crap and open a new entry without all of the negativity.

While I was contemplating this I thought that it would be interesting to have a new category/practice on the blog where we all get to go “on the record” about topics. It would be cool to archive our thoughts and go back to them in the future (like predicting season records, etc) for review and discussion. We might as well start at a macro level for the first installment, especially in light of the day’s previous topic.

So, here is the question —

Over a 5 to 10 year time horizon, where do you think that NC State’s Athletics Department should rank in total number of ACC Championships won? Basically, how many titles do you think that we should have compare to our peers?

Personally, I feel that it would be a fair expectation that over such a time horizon, NC State should generally rank in the middle of the conference in total ACC Titles won by the entire athletics department. Before there were 12 teams we should fall somewhere around 4th or 5th in the ACC. Now that there are 12 teams, perhaps 5th or 6th.

Unlike many of my conclusions, I’m not basing this expectation on anything scientific or on any historical information. Just more of what I think is a fair expectation that graciously allots for the extreme successes of others.

Am I being too lenient by not expecting to be at the top of the ACC? Especially in light of the investment that we have made in facilities in recent years and in light of the attractiveness of Raleigh, NC as one of the best places to live in America?

Or, am I being too harsh with that expectation (for whatever reasons that you think are more important?)

How about going On the Record with your answer and thoughts?

Thanks

General On the Record

36 Responses to On the Record – ACC Title Expectations

  1. Jeff 02/18/2006 at 12:24 PM #

    ^ I buy that for the a time period of 4 or 5 years. (Which is still TOO LONG compared to other programs). But, after 4 or 5 years, that doesn’t fly anymore in light of how other programs experienced WORSE problems and found ways to reach heights that matched or bettered what they had historically achieved —

    Maryland has had TWO MAJOR scandals since 1987, yet they have maintained their percentage and made 2 Final Fours and a National Title.

    Kentucky had a much worse scandal and almost immediately rebounded into one of the country’s most success.

    The list goes on forever.

    No doubt that Monteith and crew deserve significant blame for originally stopping our program in its tracks…but, other schools found ways to recover and we never have.

  2. site admin 02/18/2006 at 12:26 PM #

    The topic is drifting a little too far towards basketball. We’d welcome some other people’s comments on the overall department issue.

    So many readers enjoy jumping in and attacking our authors yet abstain from ever going on the record and sharing any original thoughts of their own. This is your chance. We look forward to it.

  3. FrankdaTank 02/18/2006 at 12:58 PM #

    In bball – if most ncsu fans expected to win 3 titles every 10 years as was our historical average in 1987, then I would think that is too much.

    But, most fans are saying that we “expect one or two every 10 years”. How is that out of bounds when half the conference has won a Title since our last one? Most fans have already made their adjustment from a 30% expectation to a 15% expectation. I don’t know how anyone can think that is inflated.

    site admin,

    I expect our Athletics Department to rank in the Top 4 of ACC Championships over a 5 or 10 year period. Why would we even bother playing (and paying coaches) if we aren’t shooting for titles? Screw ‘consistency’. Another nebulous term used by losers who don’t know what it is like to have to live up to a goal or expectation.

  4. JSIMON 02/18/2006 at 2:06 PM #

    This is one of those discussions that I’ll never win on so instead I’ll just agree to disagree. And while consistency can be misinterpreted as mediocrity I did say that I’d want to consistently be in the top 1/4 of the league standings. That means top 3 of 12 unless as a CHASS major my math is really, really bad. I’m sure that there’s not many Wolfpack fans that would be unhappy with consistently being in the top 3 of the league in football and men’s basketball.

    Jeff said:
    You effectively are saying that NC State shouldn’t expect to win ACC Basketball Championships (to the tune of just 1 or 2 every 10 years) simply because WE have mis-managed ourselves to the tune of not winning any since 1987?

    That, quite frankly, is opposite of what I said in one of my earlier posts. What I did say was that:
    “Hopefully, that type of consistent success would translate into an ACC Championship or two over the course of a decade. “

    As for the statement regarding our consistency after finishing 7th and making it to the Sweet 16? I prefer to remember that as a team that overcame some injuries (everyone should be able to see how different we would have been w/ a healthy Tony Bethel) and went to our first Sweet 16 in more than a decade.

    Admittedly it’s a different opinion but I think there are more measures of success than championships. I just do. Among them, academic integrity, NCAA integrity, postseason appearances, wins/losses, and, yes, championships (in no particular order). I also realize that only one team can win a ACC/NCAA title each season. If you’re not that one that doesn’t mean you’ve failed.

    But that’s just me and I certainly know there’s differing opinions out there. And I’m a bit of both an optimist and realist too.

    http://www.simonsayshoops.com

  5. Jeff 02/18/2006 at 2:39 PM #

    JSIM,

    No “argument” to win here. Everyone has a different opinion that they are entitled to have. I enjoy and appreciate it.

    My comments were follow-up to the backstory — I was puzzled at the basis for using history as the guide for not expecting to win titles while simultaneously ignoring history that would indicate that we should be winning titles.

  6. VaWolf82 02/18/2006 at 4:09 PM #

    No AD ever got fired for how the swim team or women’s BB is doing. The same can not be said for men’s BB and FB. We can argue about whether or not this is “right…but that’s the way it is. I don’t like to be “embarassed” by the non-revenue sports, but for the most part fans, alums, and boosters don’t care as long as the big 2 are doing well.

    I have a rather simplistic view….almost anything that has been done before, can be done again. So Dick Sheridan is my metric for football and Sloan and Valvano are my metrics for basketball.

    If we can allow just a little deviation from the main topic…..finishing in the top-25, three years out of the last four is one of the best accomplishments of the BB team over the last 15 years. However, I’m not sure how to figure that in with the more normal metrics of conference championships and NCAAT performances.

  7. MurphNCSU 02/19/2006 at 6:13 PM #

    VaWolf82,

    I agree that FINISHING in the top-25 three of the last four years is an accomplishment, but I am frustrated by the fact that the NCSU spin-machine uses this fact to state in radio advertising that we are a, “Perennial Top-25 Programâ€?. The fact is that over the past 4 years we have consistently finished in the top-25, after a mediocre regular season both in the ACC and national rankings. I would simply like to finish over .500 in the ACC every year and maybe even compete with some national quality non-conference opponents. I am truly worried that this year may be the high-water mark of the entire decade after the attrition of many of this years talent.

  8. VaWolf82 02/19/2006 at 9:04 PM #

    I agree that FINISHING in the top-25 three of the last four years is an accomplishment, but I am frustrated by the fact that the NCSU spin-machine uses this fact to state in radio advertising that we are a, “Perennial Top-25 Program�.

    I just have a hard time placing how important the polls are. In 2004 and 2006, State spent most of the season ranked. This means general publicity for the program simply by normally being on ESPN highlights. This without a doubt plays a role in HS kids overall opinion of the team.

    In 2002, State was not in the polls until beating MD in the ACCT and MSU in the NCAAT. That was nice, but could not have had much of an effect on any recruits…at least based on the next two recruiting classes.

    I don’t want to either downplay or over state the importance of the polls. It’s obviously better to be ranked than not…but for me it is not substitute for real accomplishments.

  9. Jon Smith 02/20/2006 at 12:48 PM #

    When you look at those 10 ACC BB titles the Pack has won, 5 of them are very old – way back in the 50s and 60s when college BB was a much different game – no black players is 1 example of how different the game was then.

    If you look at the more modern era of college BB since 1975 where you have multiple ACC teams going to the NCAA the 3 point shot and shot clock NCSU only has 2 ACC titles in 30 years. The problem winning ACC titles didn’t start in 1990.

  10. VaWolf82 02/20/2006 at 1:26 PM #

    Tourney Titles
    3 titles in the 1970s
    2 titles in the 1980s
    0 since 1987

    Regular Season Titles
    2 in the 1970s
    2 in the 1980s
    0 since 1989

    Looks to me like the 90’s were awfully close to the start of a major problem

  11. syd 02/23/2006 at 1:14 PM #

    One of the greatest teams of all times with who I think was the most talented and complete college basketball player of all time, ACC championship titles, two national championship banners, a rich and innovative basketball tradition with the best facilities in the nation in their day, and it all just ceased to exist without any reason. It’s all just been flushed down the toilet and has never been capitalized on. Now I have to hear from people like you out there who decide that middle of the road is fine for NC State athletics and if anyone disagrees by thinking that this program deserves to live up to it’s great legacy, we are all negative and all just a bunch of whinner’s.

    I am and always will be an NC STATE fan, this program deserves better, and should still be at the top of the Atlantic Coast Conference without any question. If you are willing to settle for anything less you have been numbed by the mediocrity of the past fifteen years, or you’re just too young to know how it feels when it is the other way around. If you are too young to remember how it feels to be on a competitive level with the best the in the nation night after night, maybe you should jump on the Duke or Carolina bandwagon for a year or two. That way you will understand how it feels to sit down before any basketball game feeling confident that someone has actually developed a game plan that involves the opposition’s personel and other factors. You would understand the feeling that comes from pulling for a top program and a coach that gives his players an opportunity to win. Stay with that program as long as it takes for you to develope confidence in them. Then you can come back and pull for NCSU again. You can watch the players get shuffled out onto the court for forty minutes with one repetitive scheme. Watch your coach sit motionless, like a deer in the headlights, wandering how other teams have figured how to beat him after twenty plus games of the season with his one game plan. Maybe if you exprienced a great program for once, like Duke or Carolina and like the NC State program once was, then you will have a better understanding of the “whinners” like me out here, the ones that refuse to roll over die, and settle as you have.

1 2

Leave a Reply