04-05: Another Unimpressive Year

Author’s Note: This entry was written around May of 2005 and was never submitted on the site. The entry was unfinished until some quick edits today and has been sitting in my drafts box since mid-2005. Over the next few weeks I plan on highlighting some macro-topics on the site – performance, expectations, rivalries, etc – I thought that throwing this up would be somewhat appropriate. Additionally, I didn’t want to lose all the work that I had done.

In April/May 2005, the Technician‘s Ian Jester wrote an article “Updating the Pack Almanac” for the 2004-2005 Athletic Year.

The premise of the article was to rank the Top Ten events in NC State Athletics for the 2004-2005 year. The result of the article leaves me thoroughly unimpressed.

Don’t get me wrong, Jester’s work was very good; his Top Ten list of major events in NC State Athletics is pretty accurate. Therein lines the problem – the ACCURACY of Jester’s list creates almost NOTHING about which to get excited or have any real pride about. For yet another year, Lee Fowler’s athletics department delivered no “peak” or signature performance in an entire Athletics Season (How many sports do we play?)

Oh wait. Correction time. It seems that I have forgotten that Mr. Wuf won “Mascot Madness.” How could that have slipped my mind?

Unfortunately, another “blah athletics year” in Raleigh doesn’t leave me as “sad” as I wish that it did. Certainly not as sad as it once did. My diminished passion and motivation to see tangible, on the field/court success is highly consistent with the feeling of many Wolfpackers of my generation – we have been beaten down with mediocrity. We have been beaten down by an athletics program that has generally been asleep at the wheel for so long that nobody really notices anymore, partly because they can’t muster the energy to care as much anymore.

Every year that I get older is another year of a new generation that has no idea what winning can feel like or how to achieve it. Another year further away from a time when NC State’s Athletics Department actually spoke in terms of championships for many sports and didn’t shy away from rivalries and challenging national programs. Another year that the young and impressionable crowd is told by people that didn’t move to Raleigh until the year 2000 that it is more than acceptable
not to have the same standards as our peers since there is no way that NC State should expect to compare ourselves to the programs of our rivals despite the fact that history shows that we

Summary List
Just how bad was the 2004-2005 year that produced a Director’s Cup ranking of #51 in the country? Go check out the specifics of the list for yourself. Instead of providing you Jester’s comments, I am going to supplement his comments by summarizing the list from a different perspective.

(10) A GYMNASTICS victory in Chapel Hill makes the list. Since our entire athletics program won so few match-ups against Carolina, then you have to highlight something.

(9) A boring, 53-51 road basketball victory on the road against a middling ACC team that many Wolfpackers deemed the biggest disappointment in the country. The opponent played us without two of their contributors (who later helped the team advance to the ACC Championship by beating Carolina) and represented the first game back for the team’s top player who had been injured for 6 weeks.

(8) The injury to one of our women’s basketball players that led to a 60-58 loss to Middle Tennessee in the NCAA Tournament. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but other than one season, our women’s program has not advanced to the Sweet 16 in approximately 15 years?

(7) A TIE!!! That’s right…our men’s soccer team TIED the #2 team in the country (at home). WHOO HOO!!!!

(6) A 100-yard touchdown run…by an OPPOSING PLAYER!! Of course, in a loss.

(5) Men’s Cross Country ACC Championship. It’s a title. I’ll take it. I don’t care that it is in one of the most obsolete sports in any program. Somebody has got to win it. We can put the trophy’s right beside Mr. Wuf’s Mascot Madness title.

(4) Not even an event that has happened yet. Heck…not even a real event. Two pitchers on a baseball team who evidentally are pretty good. One is closing in on the ACC saves record. The baseball team is 30-12 overall based on a non-conference schedule created by Herb Sendek and laden with names like Deleware State, Campbell, ECU, Sand Diego State, The Citadel, William & Mary, UNC-Greensboro, UNC-Wilmington, Davidson, Lehigh, and Elon. Our conference record is only 11-10. (Of course, this was all written prior to the end of the season when the baseball team showed some life)

(3) Cancer and a loss. That’s right…”Pink bracelets were the fashion Jan. 14, signifying support for missing coach Kay Yow in her battle with a reoccurrence of cancer.” Of course, this is a horrible, horrible situation. So, therefore it fits the theme of our Top 10 moments of this year perfectly. Cancer, and losing to our rival (at home) in basketball. Perfectly par for Lee Fowler’s Athletics Department and a perfect fit at #3.

(2) Deaths at Carter-Finley. Again, another horrible, tragic event. Again, our athletics department provided so few positive events for us to be excited about that one of the most prominent events in our year were murders.

(1) The Sweet 16.

Of course, the Sweet 16. Note that it was not the entire basketball season that saw the Pack finish in 7th place in the ACC with a losing record and needing the benefits of a schedule that played Duke only once, 2 extra wins in the BCA Classic in Raleigh, and Chris Paul being suspended in the ACC Tournament to allow State to squeak into the NCAA Tournament as the lowest rated at-large team in the dance (#65).

Note that it wasn’t the Elite 8 after we squandered a great opportunity by blowing a big lead in the 2nd half of our Sweet 16 game vs Wisconsin – the 4th year in a row that State led in 2nd half of an NCAA Tournament loss.

Saying the “Sweet 16” effectively means that we won two games – one vs Charlotte and one vs UConn. Of course, the UConn win and trip to the Sweet 16 was nice. But, it was ONE win that was four rounds away from the Championship game. (Shhhh…don’t say words like Championship in Raleigh). In the end, two wins in three days against a single Top 25 opponent was the HIGHLIGHT of NC State’s ENTIRE Athletics season for 2004-2005.

And nobody seemed to think that this wasn’t so great?

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30 Responses to 04-05: Another Unimpressive Year

  1. Washington Wolf 02/17/2006 at 9:51 AM #

    That is a REALLY sad and discouraging list. But, then again, who cares? Certainly, the chancellor, AD and Trustees don’t care. The big wig donors, like Murphy, Dail, Day, Stroud, etc apparently don’t care. And since, they don’t care, why should we?

  2. Jim 02/17/2006 at 9:55 AM #

    Wow. What a hatchet job.

  3. ncsu1999 02/17/2006 at 10:10 AM #

    Wow – When you look at it like that, its pretty, ummm depressing. A couple items on that list are good accomplishments and probably deserving of a top ten ranking at many/any school, but overall its pretty sad. We have one of the finest schools academically in the county, but can’t seem to put together anything athletically – at least not of recent memory. Having graduated in 1999 and living in NC since the late 80s, I can’t recall anything that truely stands out as great times. There are plenty of individual game peaks, but no truly great seasons (leaving the sweet 16 run from last season out of the debate).

    I hate the fact that a bowl season now seems to be an accomplishment – with the number of bowls and the fact that you only have to win half your games, no matter what your conference record is, there is no reason a bowl game should be an accomplishment – it should be a given. The only question should be which game.

    It is nice to see, at least somewhat, that making the NCAAs no longer makes a great season. We are expecting to make it at least to the sweet 16 or the season will feel like a disappointment.

    Just my two cents….

  4. james bossert 02/17/2006 at 10:12 AM #

    You guys need to develop a more positive outlook… After all, things could have been much worse 😉

  5. RickJ 02/17/2006 at 10:26 AM #

    The bar is really low. Did anybody notice that the NIT has dropped the requirement that their teams have at least a .500 record to be invited? That is going to be interesting.

  6. Jeff 02/17/2006 at 10:56 AM #

    Jim,

    I am confused by your comment.

    Do you disagree with my general conclusions regarding the athletic ‘successes’ of the 2004-2005 academic year and the overall performance and goals of the NC State athletics programs?

    From an ACC Championship perspective — how do you guys think NC State should rank amongst other schools? How many titles do you think that we should have compare to our peers?

    Personally, I feel that it would be a fair expectation that over a long period time (let’s say 5 years; or even 10 years) that NC State should generally rank in the middle of the conference in total ACC Titles won by the entire athletics department.

  7. Mick 02/17/2006 at 11:04 AM #

    When I went State in the mid 80’s, our men’s sports teams were much more competitive than today. Football under Reed was bad. Tennis and golf were mediocre. However; basketball, baseball, soccer, track, cross country, swimming and wrestling always fielded excellent or at worst “solid” teams every year.

    The ladies were very good in cross country, track, basketball, and soccer.

    I don’t think that Willis Casey was hell bent on being the best in every sport. But what he did do was make smart coaching hires most of the time. He also didn’t let coaches with poor results fester and lurk around. He was more of a manager of coaches as opposed to being a fundraiser and facilities builder. We did not have great facilities back then, but we did have Jimmy V, Rollie Geiger, Sam Esposito, Bob Guzzo, and Don Easterling, etc.

  8. Jim 02/17/2006 at 11:20 AM #

    IMO that “highlight list” was put together and written in a way to trash State athletics. Which is cool. Maybe we deserve to get trashed. What only mildly upsets me is that is was written in the guise of being “highlights,” when obviously the author’s intent was to be negative. (Again, maybe a fair perspective). When I started reading, the premise “top 10 athletic events” leads a reader to expect a discussion of positive items. Instead we got some faint praise and mostly mockery.

    My intelligence gets insulted sometimes when I read things on here that are initially represented as written from an objective POV when, upon reading them, it is clear that the author had an agenda. Many times I agree with the agenda. I just don’t like the fake “objectivity” that just somehow leads (surprise!) to a conclusion the author wants to reach.

    On another subject totally. Hey Brock, did you keep any of the old IPs? I would love to read some of that stuff again, especially the anti-Packs. Those were some fun times, in a perverse sort of way.

  9. ncsu1999 02/17/2006 at 11:31 AM #

    Jeff – I tend to agree with your point of over a long haul we should be in the middle of the conference overall with respect to championships won – maybe even slightly higher than middle based upon the size of our university enrollement and facilities with respect to some of the smaller ones. Not every team can be championship caliber every season, but overall things should balance out if you will. Obviously success breeds success with respect to recruiting, etc. so that plays a point, but overall at worst case I beleive we should be able to hold our own with respect to championships with anyone in the conference in any sport overall.

  10. Jeff 02/17/2006 at 11:42 AM #

    Jim, the actual list was provided by Ian Jester. The comments afterwards were provided by me. They weren’t “designed” to trash State Athletics.

    I apologize, but I didn’t CREATE the RESULTS on which to comment…I simply made the comments on actual results. Do you think that my comments would have been as “negative” if the results on which I was commenting were different?

    I am sincerely upset that you think that your intelligence has been insulting. That is never the goal here for anyone.

    As it relates to the IPs — I have found them and they are currently in storage (as a part of my recent move). I look forward to getting them and sharing them with the group at some point in the future!!!

    Thanks

  11. Jim 02/17/2006 at 12:41 PM #

    Jeff:

    “They weren’t ‘designed’ to trash State athletics”? Come on!

    You don’t even say who we beat in the #9 “boring” basketball victory. Our football win over eventual ACC champion VT in Blacksburg isn’t there. #8 is an injury to a women’s basketball player. (?) I got about that far and realized this can’t be serious. I thought: “whoever put this list of ‘highlights’ together was being disingenuous and now Brock is riffing on what a crappy year it was.” Which is cool. That’s your deal.

    It’s the charade of “Hey, I’m just reporting honestly” that I have a problem with. Pink bracelets are “a perfect fit at #3.” Come on. This is where I fall off the StateFans nation train. You don’t like Fowler. You don’t like Sendek. We get it. You make some good points about both guys. Where (IMO) you hurt yourself is by pretending that you are reporting “facts” objectively. Because you aren’t. This so-called list of highlights was not put together honestly and you riffing on it certainly isn’t objective.

    I remember you writing very convincingly, with an avalanche of data behind you, that Sendek would never make the NCAAs because coaches who don’t lead their teams there within the first X years are 0 for whatever in ever doing it. Now that we are in the NCAAs regularly (and I’m not saying that should be the extent of our goals) you downplay the list’s “#1” by saying “the 4th year in a row that State led in 2nd half of an NCAA Tournament loss.” Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t all but one team lose their last NCAA game every year? Would you rather us never have led in the second halves of these games? Had we never led in the second halves wouldn’t that make us even crappier in your opinion? This is the type of thing this site tries to pass off as “objective analysis” and it isn’t either. It is biased double-talk.

    On the subject of the IPs — I remember almost getting fired several times because I was laughing so hard. Back then I was in a cube, but I couldn’t resist reading and re-reading the IPs and LMOA. Especially the anti-Packs. Those things were a ray of light. In the era of Turner, MOC, and Les they were about the only enjoyment I could get out of State athletics. Please re-run them when you get a chance.

  12. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 1:27 PM #

    Sometimes the truth hurts and some don’t care to face the truth. We are #51 should say enough but in case it does not how about 1979 last football conference champion and 1987 last ACC tournament champion.

  13. Mick 02/17/2006 at 1:39 PM #

    Jim,

    What you say is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that NCSU Athletics are not that good overall. So the author took a few potshots, big deal.

    Take an honest look at each sport. Don’t worry about things like improvement and excuses, focus on bottom line results. Is State successful or not? Simple concept.

    What was the highlight in football last year (2004). One win against Va. Tech. While that was a good win, the season was a failure. Therefore, that win doesn’t mean anything.

    What was the highlight in basketball last year (2004-05). We played 35 games and had 2 nice wins (Wake – Without Paul and UCONN). We were 7-9 in the ACC and got smoked by a horrible St. John’s team.

    There is nothing empircal or anecdotal to suggest that NCSU Athletics, as a whole were successful during the 2004-05.

    2005-06 is a different story so far. While football was still average, the soccer team had a good year and the basketball team is having a great season so far.

  14. Kingfish 02/17/2006 at 1:40 PM #

    Jeff,

    Another good find and article. Lee “Nascar” Fowler if you talk to him does not believe we should talk or expect championships. He once told me on the phone that he did not know the following: 2 ACC tourney Championships, 1 Regular Season Title, 3 Final Eights, 4 Sweet Sixteens, and 1 National Championship That was IN just ONE DECADE! AMAZING!

    Sendeck has never uttered the word championship. Amato talks the talk but can’t walk the walk. Kay Yow can’t beat anyone. Women’s volleyball is a joke. Our swim team used to win everything.

    Changes need to be made but how?

  15. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 2:05 PM #

    ^Empty unpaid seats. That’s all they recognize.

  16. JSIMON 02/17/2006 at 2:11 PM #

    Jim said:
    “Come on. This is where I fall off the StateFans nation train. You don’t like Fowler. You don’t like Sendek. We get it. You make some good points about both guys. Where (IMO) you hurt yourself is by pretending that you are reporting “factsâ€? objectively. Because you aren’t.”

    I say:
    Thanks Jim. I share your sentiment. Honestly, I really enjoy reading this blog and think that the facts and analysis are really interesting. It’s just the overwhelming tone of negativity that most posts have that turn me off. And it’s not because I am willing to accept mediocre or am a Herb support or whatever. It’s because when a school that I love and support (both financially and with my time every day) gets a win, advances to the Sweet 16 for the first time in more than 10 years or readies for a fifth-straight trip to the NCAA Tournament or reaches 20 wins faster than any other team since 1974, I prefer to celebrate that instead of finding ways to criticize.

    The constant negativity is one reason I started my own blog (shameless self promo — ) and a reason I’ve given up on Pack Pride message boards. At least there’s intelligence here.

  17. Jeff 02/17/2006 at 2:18 PM #

    Guys….I honestly don’t understand why there is a misunderstanding about the direction that we want to take conversations on this forum? I thought that we had discussed multiple times how we will not allow the focus of conversations to be about each other (including ME!)

    I have no interest in providing you a forum to attack me and attach your personal perceptions of my intentions, etc. I’ve made that perfectly clear in the past. Talk about me (whom most of you have never met) somewhere else. Don’t waste your time telling others what you think that I believe. I am more than capable of sharing my own thoughts.

    Some of you people are off your rocker. (not the people whose posts remain undeleted). You complain about me/SFN being “biased” and you havbe issues with us trying to “report” things with a slant. Are you on crack? Where do you come off making ASSumptions based on nothing but your desire to want to argue and hate? This is a f*ing BLOG. Of course it is BIASED. If you disagree with the opinions, then please discuss the opinions…not the people with the opinions. Nobody here has ever tried to “report” anything here? How do some of you just make up shit in your minds from nothing?

    You don’t even say who we beat in the #9 “boring� basketball victory.

    As I pointed out…the original pieces was written EIGHT MONTHS AGO and was based on a link to a Technician article. I didn’t need to mention such specifics. It was meant to be tied to the original article.

    Our football win over eventual ACC champion VT in Blacksburg isn’t there.

    I think that we have a misunderstanding. I didn’t create the list. Ian Jester created the list. I commented on it. I agree with you that the VPI thing was a big oversight.

    “whoever put this list of ‘highlights’ together was being disingenuous and now Brock is riffing on what a crappy year it was.� Which is cool. That’s your deal.

    No offense….but, that’s NOT TRUE. The guy at the Technician put together a real list. Take up your issues with him. If he meant it as a facetious joke (which he didn’t), then I totally missed it.

    I honestly believe that your frustration with how bad the list is completely supports my overall point — I’m frustrated about the list as well!! I just chose to use some negative hyperbole to add to the topic.

    Ah…yes…THE TOPIC. Why has nobody answered by legitimate quesiton about ACC Championships? Whats so damn “negative” about asking that question?
    i
    I remember you writing very convincingly, with an avalanche of data behind you, that Sendek would never make the NCAAs because coaches who don’t lead their teams there within the first X years are 0 for whatever in ever doing it.

    First, that is not what the conclusion of the data was. The conclusion of the data was that no coach who had started like Sendek had ever succeeded in being successful over the long term at that given school. (I have the old articles. I will find them.) Sendek has done a MARVELOUS job succeeding much more than the data ever suggested. That is wonderful. And God knows that I want him (ANYONE) to succeed at even a higher level in the near future (and forever). But, the data showed that everyone of those coaches (like Jim O’Brien at BC) ultimately did not succeed over the long term at the school. I hope Herb is the first.

    On the subject of the IPs — I remember almost getting fired several times because I was laughing so hard. Back then I was in a cube, but I couldn’t resist reading and re-reading the IPs and LMOA. Especially the anti-Packs. Those things were a ray of light. In the era of Turner, MOC, and Les they were about the only enjoyment I could get out of State athletics. Please re-run them when you get a chance.

    It will be about 6 or 7 months until they come out of storage. Thanks

    The topics on this blog are designed to generate discussions about the topics. Not about your perceptions about people that you’ve never met…and we certainly aren’t looking for each topic to be a referrendum on your opinion of the blog (that would get more than a little tedious). I think that the silence and avoidance regarding legitimate questions raised about the topic is more than telling.

    Let me try to get us back on topic like Mick and some others tried to keep us on.

    From an ACC Championship perspective — how do you guys think NC State should rank amongst other schools? How many titles do you think that we should have compare to our peers?

    Personally, I feel that it would be a fair expectation that over a long period time (let’s say 5 years; or even 10 years) that NC State should generally rank in the middle of the conference in total ACC Titles won by the entire athletics department.

    I don’t know what is “negative” and “mean” and “biased” about that….but I’m sure somebody out there can figure out something to bitch about.

  18. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 2:39 PM #

    Whether it’s business, sports or life in general if have no goals you’ll seldom be disappointed. It would seem too many of our fans have just that, no goals or very low goals. This is the legacy of the Monteith years.

  19. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 2:42 PM #

    ^ sorry should have been “if you have no goals”

  20. Jeff 02/17/2006 at 3:18 PM #

    Can we shift to a more topic-based conversation by clicking here?

    I really would welcome your thoughts.

  21. Jim 02/17/2006 at 3:33 PM #

    “The topics on this blog are designed to generate discussions about the topics.”

    I thought I was commenting on the topic (the topic being the 2004-2005 athletics year as it relates to a list complied by Ian Jester). I thought the list was poorly-done and I thought Jeff’s comments were overly negative, and I tried to explain my positions.

    The third paragraph of Jeff’s piece extolls the virtues of the writer of the list and the list itself. ( — “Don’t get me wrong, Jester’s work was very good; his Top Ten list of major events in NC State Athletics is pretty accurate. Therein lines the problem – the ACCURACY of Jester’s list . . . .” — ) To me, this puts the accuracy of the list “in play” as far as things to talk about.

    It’s interesting that “class of ’74” responds and apparently takes Jeff words as unbiased ( — “Sometimes the truth hurts and some don’t care to face the truth.” –). But Jeff responds “This is a f*ing BLOG. Of course it is BIASED.” If you two guys of all people disagree, how the hell am I supposed to know how to read it?

    I’d also like to apologize to “class of ’74” for being a loser with no goals who can’t handle the truth. I’m trying to do better.

    Now that I know what the appropriate topic is — “From an ACC Championship perspective — how do you guys think NC State should rank amongst other schools? How many titles do you think that we should have compare to our peers?” — I’ll comment.

    Maybe this makes me a pig, but I personally don’t give a damn about anything but football and men’s basketball (and to a much lesser degree baseball and men’s soccer). We could fold the rest of the programs and I wouldn’t miss them at all. The “big 2” are all I care about as championship-gererators From the positions we are in now at those two programs in a 10 year period I expect to win 2 ACC titles in basketball and 1 in football, minimum. I don’t think that’s unrealistic given our history and how we are positioned currently. In the 90s I don’t think these goals would have been realistic but we have come a *long* way vis a vis infrastructure, etc . . .. I’m not sure where that would “rank” us relative to the ACC, because as I said I don’t care about the sucess of the vast majority of our programs. I would trade 20 ACC cross country titles for one in men’s basketball, for example, so a gross ranking means nothing to me.

    But I digress.

  22. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 4:03 PM #

    ^acknowledging the problem is the first step to recovery.

  23. JSIMON 02/17/2006 at 4:08 PM #

    Jeff, I’ll accept a little blame for taking us off-track as you suggest.

    In terms of championships I don’t know that I’d put a hard number on it. What I want is for all of our sports — especially those that are funded at a scholarship level that competes with other ACC programs (which is most of them) — to be in the top quarter of the league standings consistently. That means year in and year out. That type of success would certainly translate into postseason opportunities and, ultimately, give us a chance at National Championships. Some of our Olympic sports in particular haven’t even consistently gone to the postseason and that is unacceptable. It also makes it hard to even take a guess at what’s a fair number of championships per decade.

    But, what everyone wants is championships in football and basketball. Once again, is we’re consistent in the top 1/4 of the league standings we’ll go to the NCAA Tournament and, generally, a really good bowl game. Hopefully, that type of consistent success would translate into an ACC Championship or two over the course of a decade. Consistency is truly the mark of a great athletics department.

  24. class of '74 02/17/2006 at 4:13 PM #

    ^totally agree with your sentiments. Well said.

  25. Jeff 02/17/2006 at 5:03 PM #

    I very much agree with the sentiments of the people that I antagonize with by voicing my frustration in the manner in which I do. I can understand that, and appreciate it.

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