Interactive: State OOC in Sendek Era

General NCS Basketball Rankings & Lists32

In light of Carolina’s out of conference basketball success this season….I thought that I would open up the forum for your thoughts on the topic of NC State’s out of conference success over the last decade.

Let’s try to compile a list of NC State’s Ten Best Out of Conference Basketball victories of the Herb Sendek era. Regular season games only (not NIT or NCAAs)
And, let’s please don’t run off on tangents and smart-alec comments that are too far away from the central point. Let’s come up with a Top Ten list together. (I’ve been working on a list, but want to wait until hearing from you.)

I’ll start with a candidate for the top spot —

December 1, 1999 at Purdue. State wins 61-59 on Justin Gainey’s last second shot. The Boilermakers ultimately made the Elite Eight that season and ended the year 23-10, ranked #31 in the RPI and #21 in the Sagarin.

Any thoughts?

General NCS Basketball Rankings & Lists

32 Responses to Interactive: State OOC in Sendek Era

  1. SonnyBono 01/28/2006 at 4:53 PM #

    Syracuse in Julius first year and Georgia in the opening game of the ESA

  2. TVP 01/28/2006 at 5:09 PM #

    Thrashing a top 15 GW team this year is pretty solid.

    The Bama win might turn out to be better than expected if they can continue their hot play of late.

    Beating Houston in 2001 wasn’t big in the sense of them being a marquee opponent, but our miraculous victory there was a spark for making the NCAAs for the first time in a decade that year.

  3. Jeff 01/28/2006 at 5:28 PM #

    I thought about that Houston win for the same reason. Both the excitement of how we won and the fact that had we not won that single game then we wouldn’t have made the NCAA Tournament.

    TVP…what do you think about GW vs Purdue as #1? Which way do you lean?

  4. lumberpack 01/28/2006 at 5:43 PM #

    I can’t think of any OOC win of any real significance to remember

  5. Jeff 01/28/2006 at 5:58 PM #

    Unfortunately, I think ^that is where the exercise is going to lead us. But, I think it would be neat to have a Top Ten list, nonetheless

  6. RickJ 01/28/2006 at 6:34 PM #

    How about UNC – Greensboro in 2000 in the RBC? Down one at the end of the game and Damian Wilkins puts up a wild jumper that careens off the backboard into Anthony Grundy’s hands prostrated on the floor. He flips up the game winner that keeps us from the indignity of losing to Women’s College.

  7. VaWolf82 01/28/2006 at 6:36 PM #

    Are we including NCAAT wins?

    If so, then the UConn win last year would certainly count.

    The Mich St win in 2002 was big….but only because it was State’s first trip to the NCAAT in a decade.

  8. Jeff 01/28/2006 at 8:04 PM #

    ^ NO NCAA Tournament wins. Have to be regular season. I need to go to the original post and update for this. Thanks for calling my attention to this.

  9. TVP 01/28/2006 at 8:47 PM #

    I think if you want 10 games the Houston game is going to have to be in there…I can’t think of 10 better. We probably don’t have many more than 10 wins against non-scrub OOC teams in the Sendek era period.

    Re: GW v. Purdue – it probably depends on how they do overall this year. They could potentially not lose again playing in the A-10.

    Beating Washington in the 03-04 season would probably be on the list somewhere.

  10. JSIMON 01/28/2006 at 9:39 PM #

    I’d have to vote for the game at Syracuse during the 2001-02 season. They were ninth in the country and even though the win at Houston two weeks later was dramatic it may not have been possible if that team wouldn’t have signaled a change in attitude by beating the Orange in the Carrier Dome. Plus, after disappointing nonconference losses to Ohio State and UMass (both of whom were down that year) that win helped to right the ship and ultimately played a bigger role in getting selected for the first NCAA Tournament in more than a decade.

    Another win that should definitely go in the top 10 is the Pack’s win over #23 Oklahoma in the Puerto Rico Classic in 1998-99. It was the tourney runner-up game (after losing to a pretty good Ohio State team in the semis) but the Sooners went on to advance to the Sweet 16. It’s one that is easily overlooked.

    It’s definitely easy to take shots at Herb’s out-of-conference scheduling and the obvious lack of those marquee opponents. But, to be fair, one thing that should be taken into consideration (or at least noted) is how much TV networks play in scheduling those games. After a decade of losing NC State just was not a gem in television’s eyes. At the same time other conference teams like the obvious ones (Duke and UNC) were playing on national TV nearly every night. Also, Wake was making a climb and had Tim Duncan (plus Skip’s first several teams that were all highly ranked) and Maryland had become a national power too. Even though Georgia Tech was down they were still a more attractive option to television since they were in the more-populated Atlanta market.

    Another thing I tried to look at — was there a pattern of poor performance in those out-of-conference games played after the start of conference play (having played at least two ACC games) and there really wasn’t. Take a look:
    96-97 — Wofford (H) — Win
    97-98 — Memphis (H) — Win
    97-98 — Norfolk State (H) — Win
    98-99 — Wofford (H) — Win
    98-99 — Tulane (H) — Win
    99-00 — Arizona State (H) — Win
    00-01 — Syracuse (H) — Loss
    01-02 — Temple (H) — Win
    02-03 — Boston College (H) — Win
    02-03 — Temple (A) — Loss
    03-04 — Boston College (A) — Loss
    03-04 — Washington (H) — Win
    05-06 — Seton Hall (H) — Loss

    Of course, you will notice that as we started to play better, the opponents for those games (which are usually made-for-tv events) got better too and our record reflected that (i.e., no more Woffords or Norfolk State). NC State is 4-4 in those mid-season OOC games since 1999-00. Interesting to note that we also lost both of the games that were on the road among that mix. Judging by losses by Duke (vs GTown) and Maryland (vs Temple today) maybe ACC teams should avoid going on the road once conference play starts?

    http://simonsayshoops.blogspot.com

  11. JSIMON 01/28/2006 at 10:12 PM #

    BTW, I went to Ohio State’s site and looked … that Buckeye team that we lost to in that Puerto Rico tournament went to the Final Four that year. I thought I’d remembered they finished up pretty good.

  12. Fish 01/29/2006 at 1:52 AM #

    Oh you cannot forget the UNC-Asheville win in each of ZENDICK’s 10 seasons. What a difficult non-conference game.

  13. SaccoV 01/29/2006 at 10:53 AM #

    I think the Purdue victory is the best OOC win for Herb. Washington falls to #2 on my list and Syracuse #3. That Syracuse team was overrated and I think barely squeaked into the Dance that year. If you think about it, we’re really looking for a TOP 5 list here because there aren’t enough solid OOC wins to make a TEN-High list. Nice discussion though.

  14. newswolf 01/29/2006 at 11:28 AM #

    IIRC the #9 Syracuse team we beat that year didn’t even make it to the NCAA Tournament (I could be way off on that)

    I agree years 1-7 that no one really wanted to schedule NC State, but how in the world can WVU play at UCLA this year? Where is WVU on the national map compared to NC State (same/better/worse)?

    IMO the bottom line is that Sendek doesn’t want to play these teams. He would rather play middle tier programs like Princeton, Seton Hall, Notre Dame, St. Johns, Alabama & George Washington. I can understand that because he usually has a hard enough time against those teams.

    I am not saying that his train of thought is wrong, it is just after 10 years if it has happened why would it start happening in year 11 or 12.

  15. VaWolf82 01/29/2006 at 1:20 PM #

    If you are talking about 2002, Syracuse finished the year with an RPI ranking at #66 and did not make the NCAAT.

    http://kenpom.com/rpi.php?y=2002

  16. newswolf 01/29/2006 at 1:24 PM #

    I think that is the year they were in the NIT finals and forgot to bring the correct shorts so they had to wear orange tops with white shorts…. something like that

  17. VaWolf82 01/29/2006 at 2:06 PM #

    Assuming that I didn’t fat-finger anything, here are State’s OOC wins since 1999 sorted by RPI Ranking:

    2001… (24) Penn St.
    2004… (31) Brigham Young
    2000… (31) Purdue
    2005… (47) Louisiana Lafayette
    1999… (49) Oklahoma
    2004… (60) Washington
    2000… (63) Arizona St.
    2002… (66) Syracuse
    2004… (75) Wisconsin Milwaukee
    2002… (79) Temple
    2002… (81) Houston
    2003… (89) South Carolina

  18. newswolf 01/29/2006 at 3:28 PM #

    I thing that list is a good list to build Sendek Era Top 10 OOC Wins

    I think you have to put UGA on that list b/c it was a close game, we stunk, and it was opening night of the ESA/RBC

  19. Jeff 01/29/2006 at 3:45 PM #

    You guys rock!

    Before I posted this entry, I had already some of the research and compiled a list of about 16 or 17 potential candidates. You are hitting them all over the place.

    One thing that I found interesting was how I had perceived some wins to be bigger (or smaller) than they really were. For example, in hindsight….the win over Washington in 2004 wasn’t really any different than the win over Az State four years earlier. But, I would have sworn that the Washington game was significantly larger.

  20. JSIMON 01/29/2006 at 4:27 PM #

    VaWolf is that RPI rating at the time of the game? Or final for the season? I’m assuming year-end RPI but that Oklahoma game seems weird since they went to the Sweet 16.

  21. Chico 01/29/2006 at 4:43 PM #

    Some good choices. I like the Washington win at home a couple of years ago. Nate Robinson made the Top Ten list on ESPN the next day with an incredible dunk. The reason I liked this win was that we were rebounding from a horrible game a Clemson (this game came two days after a huge win at home vs. Duke). We had to dig down and really work hard to win that game.
    The Syracuse win in Grundys last year was a good one too. Grundy by the way is the leading scorer in the NBA Developmental League (playing in Roanoke Va—no road trip for me, thanks!)

  22. Jeff 01/29/2006 at 4:48 PM #

    JSIMON, those RPIs are final for the season. There is no way to find the RPI at the time. Additionally, the Purdue team finished #31 and went to the Elite Eight.

    JSIMON, see if you can click on my name and send me an email. I’d love to connect with you.

  23. JSIMON 01/29/2006 at 5:20 PM #

    Jeff, I tried. Didn’t work. I think you’ve got my email drop me a note.

  24. VaWolf82 01/29/2006 at 5:31 PM #

    Usually my RPI numbers come from: http://kenpom.com/rpi.php

    As Jeff said, they were the final RPI calcs (ie before the NCAAT) for each year. I forgot to include that kenpom.com only archives back to 1999 and that’s why I stopped there. Also, that list represents all of the OOC wins against teams in the RPI-100 since the 1999 season.

  25. Jeff 01/30/2006 at 7:57 AM #

    For the record — I also subscribe to collegerpi.com and those RPIs and kenpoms are usually identical.

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