Fowler & HSSS Crew Wrong, State Not Capitalizing on Carolina’s Exodus

Last basketball season when Carolina, Duke, and Wake Forest were spending the entire season ranked in the Top 5 of the country and NC State was struggling to squeeze into the NCAA Tournament for the 3rd time in our “great” 4 straight appearances, one of the more credible members of the Pack Pride community posted a great thread about a conversation that he had with Athletics Director, Lee Fowler.

The poster’s comments about his conversation with Fowler, and the resulting thread that followed were fantastic (I just wish that Pack Pride had saved it). The crux of the conversation centered on Lee Fowler’s comments that he expected NC State to have a better 2005-2006 basketball season because most of the other teams in the conference were going to be worse.

If you are someone who has to perform in your job to meet certain goals, or someone with standards of excellence or who has generally been successful or classified as a “winner” in your life, then you immediately understand how sad and ridiculous that amazing “management philopshy” is.

If you are someone who is generally loser and always finds a way to blame things outside of your control for your lack of success, then you are scratching your head right now wondering what is so wrong with Lee Fowler’s “plan” to make State a successful basketball program.

The comments & perspective that Fowler shared with the donor – and with others at the time – served to help write one of the next chapters in the Herb Sendek Sunshine Squad Manual:

“Just continue to construct future success propositions and proclaim them as if they are fact. Continue to hold firm to the irrational predictions no matter how much historical records and performance would lead a thinking human to conclude otherwise. Then, hope that in the years that the ACC is down, just like the year State finished second in 2004, we can have a pretty good year that you can then point to as all of the other teams cycle back through to their huge seasons.”

Well, after State’s loss to Carolina today, the same poster chimed in today on Pack Pride recalling Fowler’s comments:

Last year, when I talked to Fowler, he told me we would be much better this year when the Carolina, Wake and Duke Players went pro. When you have a strategy of your improvement on competition getting worse you have exactly what happened today.

Congrats the the Tar Heel Freshman that kicked the crap out of our team. Wonder what Fowler’s strategy will be now that their freshman are better than our seniors.

Keep up the great work Fowler!! You are the best AD Carolina ever had!

General NCS Basketball

109 Responses to Fowler & HSSS Crew Wrong, State Not Capitalizing on Carolina’s Exodus

  1. PACDADDY 01/10/2006 at 7:22 PM #

    Rick…I have a feeling you don’t understand alot of things…just a hunch.

    Praise the MIGHTY ROY!

  2. Greg 01/11/2006 at 12:39 AM #

    Jeff,

    I cant find your email.

    I will buy em…just make sure you sell me the lifetime rights too. Once you drop off the wagon, we want you off for good.

  3. Greg 01/11/2006 at 12:51 AM #

    Class of 74,

    If you think playing hard and coming up short on a rival’s home court is a disgrace, its obvious you have never competed in anything above the H.S. level. I dont mean to flame you by saying that, its just that you seem to fail to understand what college athletics are about.

    My post was intended to point out how much effort these guys give, day in and day out. There is a LOT more to college sports than the games. The easiest part of the seasons are the games. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that Coach Sendek’s practices are not some of the easier practices in the ACC either physically or mentally.

    To a man, I can promise that these players do NOT treat this “rivalry” with UNC as anything special. I do know the coaches emphasize it, the alumni emphasize it, the fans emphasize it, everyone wearing read emphasizes it. The players are just playing a game though. These guys were watching their first basketball games when our best players were Curtis Marshall and Lakista McCuller. They dont remember a championship team from 23 years ago and it will never mean as much to them…ever.

    Maybe if every State booster wasnt drooling at the mouth, pressuring these kids and coaches to perform in two games out of sixteen, the players might play a little looser, might not make key mistakes. You think the players feel the pressure? I know they do.

  4. packbackers 01/11/2006 at 1:00 AM #

    Congrats to Herb and the Pack on beating a top 15 team on the road… rephrase that, dominating a top 15 team on the road. I know some people will be able to find something negative to say about it, but not me.

  5. Class of '74 01/11/2006 at 6:54 AM #

    Greg
    ^ If you are favored and again you have experience, talent and momentum on your side and you do what we did saturday. Well that is classic underacheivement in everybody’s book. And your right I didn’t play beyond high school in basketball but in golf I did and believe me if you don’t have butterflies or pressure when you play you need to turn in your uniform or put your club and bag in the closet because you don’t have what it takes to be successful! Believe me when I say this the good players put more pressure on themselves than we ever will. They don’t even know we exist.

  6. Rick 01/11/2006 at 2:18 PM #

    “Rick…I have a feeling you don’t understand alot of things…just a hunch.”

    If you define “alot of things” as “baseless, factless, condesceding internet ramblings” then your “hunch” would be correct.

  7. Class of '74 01/11/2006 at 3:02 PM #

    ^To packbackers if BC is a top 15 team then Duke should go to the NBA and we should be seeded #2 with bye’s all the way to the final four. That performance was disgraceful on BC’s part both coach and team. And their crowd may have set an all time low too! Hard to believe Herb could have that kind of effect on a top 15 program.

  8. PACDADDY 01/11/2006 at 3:39 PM #

    “If you define “alot of thingsâ€? as “baseless, factless, condesceding internet ramblingsâ€? then your “hunchâ€? would be correct.”

    ROY… THE WINNINGEST COACH from 90-2003 went…2-6 verse UNC, Duke and Maryland…that’s a fact. Had it not been for Les years(and Herb’s first season) when he took 5 from us , he would have had a 50% record against ACC opponents, yet everyone wants to make him out to be SUPER ROY.

    Call it “factless”, “Baseless”…all you want but it’s the truith…I would consider “asinine” as a little “condesceding”, that’s why you got my remark.

  9. Class of '74 01/11/2006 at 4:43 PM #

    ^You are a minority of one on that. Everyone whether it’s Duke fans, UNC fans (naturally), State fans, Wake fans, Kansas fans, etc.. that I know or have met think Roy and K are interchangeable at the top and ANYBODY you can name is well behind those two gentlemen. Just unbelieveable.
    Give Herb that bunch of players in Chapel Hill rather than Roy and he’d be lucky to be .500 at this point of the season. If you believe otherwise you are one of a select handful of people in the entire USA.

  10. Rick 01/11/2006 at 5:03 PM #

    Frankly, anyone that would put down a coach (ie Roy) that has out performed your boy (ie Herb) by leaps and bounds loses alot of credibility.
    Since you seem to adore Herb so much how can you possibly criticize anyone that owns him?
    I am not a ROy fan. I friggin’ hate UNC but it is pure folly to put him down when Herb has down nothing to be in his league.
    It makes you seem like you are tilting windmills.

    BTW are your “facts” pwnt Herb.

  11. Class of '74 01/11/2006 at 5:19 PM #

    I too hate the tarholes but what’s not to like about Roy. He’s smart, he wins, he’s passionate, his kids seldom find their way into trouble. If he wore red and coached the pack we’d only have one problem, football. If I had my choice between Roy and K and I’d rather have Roy anyday. Both are great but K is really tough to deal with off the floor. I have several close friends from Durham who feel this way about K.

  12. DRO 01/11/2006 at 6:26 PM #

    “ROY… THE WINNINGEST COACH from 90-2003 went…2-6 verse UNC, Duke and Maryland…that’s a fact.”

    There weren’t many teams who had winning records against UNC, Duke, and Maryland during that stretch. They accounted for 5 national titles and 16 Final Four visits in 13 years for crying out loud! Roy beat most of the teams he played while at Kansas, which is more than a lot of coaches can say…

    “Had it not been for Les years(and Herb’s first season) when he took 5 from us , he would have had a 50% record against ACC opponents…”

    Unfortunately for Pack fans those years counted like all the rest. You have been keen on including Doh’s record in the past, so you’ve got to include State’s version of Doh as well.

  13. PACDADDY 01/11/2006 at 9:59 PM #

    Wait a minute here guys…I never said Roy wasn’t a great coach. I’m just saying he never had to build a program and had it much easier in the BIG 12 than he will in the ACC. At least during the 90’s.

    “There weren’t many teams who had winning records against UNC, Duke, and Maryland during that stretch”

    You just made my point…throw in WF, which he had a 1-1 record and UVA which he lost to, then you can see what I’m trying to say. He’s beatable, even when his program is on top. If you look at his teams during the many of the years while at Kansas, he won a ton of games in a conference that was BAD.

    When he had to win the big games he rarely did. Heck…

    “94…#4 seed and lost in Sweet 16

    ’95…#1 seed lost in Sweet 16 to #4 seed UVA(who couldn’t win ACC Final)

    ’96…Made final 8 as a #2 seed

    In ’97…#1 in country…lost in Sweet 16. He had to beat a #16 and #8 seed to make it to the Sweet 16 and lost to a #4.

    in ’98 he was the #2 team in country and a 1 seed…Lost in the F32 to a 8 seed…Rhode Island…who was that player…Odum?

    In ’99…Didn’t make Sweet 16

    2000…Didn’t make sweet 16

    2001…lost in Sweet 16

    IN A 8 YEAR SPAN…he made the Final 8 one time and made the sweet 16 5 times(including the final 8), while 6 of those years he was a 4 seed(4 times he was a 1 or 2 seed.)

    That ain’t Dean or K fella’s…During that same span, K made the Final game 3 times(including “the back” season) and UNC made several final 4’s(Gut made 2 himself).

  14. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 7:12 AM #

    Pacdaddy, again I say stop smoking whatever it is your smoking. Man you could not be more wrong. As I say this I’m thinking about that FedEx ad and the shipping manager that always has it wrong, but back to the point. Roy rebuilt KANSAS after the Larry Brown debacle. They were on probation and losing scholarships too. His situation was as bad if not worse than Herb’s when he arrived. And you NEVER fail to point out Herb’s plight. I don’t believe it took Roy as long as it has taken Herb to get to banner time either!

    From now on Pacdaddy you are the embodiment of the FedEx ad, no we don’t get french benefits and SteelyDan is not one guy! Just remarkable!!!

  15. Rick 01/12/2006 at 9:27 AM #

    “Wait a minute here guys…I never said Roy wasn’t a great coach. I’m just saying he never had to build a program and had it much easier in the BIG 12 than he will in the ACC.”

    And yet he has won a NC even though he has it much “harder” in the ACC.
    Again, I am not sure what point you are trying to make but you are not making Herb look good. I am not sure there is anything short of a championship that can do that.

  16. PACDADDY 01/12/2006 at 9:32 AM #

    ’74…whatever dude

    I guess the task Roy had a building a recent National champion was quite a task…yea

    I just showed you that over half of his career at Kansas he had a span of ONE FRICKIN final 8 game, when he was a #1 or #2 SEED 4 TIMES AND i GET INSULTED.

    You read what I said, and show me where I WAS WRONG. I never…NOT ONCE…said he wasn’t a great coach…in fact I said he was.

    JUST NOT SOME GOD MANY OF YOU MAKE HIM OUT TO BE.

    ’74…If you had actually read anything I said about Roy…I don’t think you will FIND ONE FRICKIN THIONG ABOUT HERB.

    You’re right…HERB SUXS…AND WILL NEVER BE A GREAT COACH… AND I’m fedex man?…clown

  17. PACDADDY 01/12/2006 at 9:42 AM #

    Rick…like I said… This is about US not having a chance against the GREAT ROY.

    My god…Roy won a NC with the more talent he ever had at Kansas in 15 years…HE DIDN’T RECRUIT THOSE PLAYERS.

    Now that Roy is at UNC, he’ll probably win more National Titles…HE’ll get the best players in the country and I’m sure he won’t choke near as much as he did at Kansas, because the TALENT will be superior at UNC. DOesn’t that say something about the TASK Herb has in competing with UNC?

  18. VaWolf82 01/12/2006 at 10:00 AM #

    because the TALENT will be superior at UNC. DOesn’t that say something about the TASK Herb has in competing with UNC?

    Yes it does…but just competing with UNC is not the only goal…or even the most important one.

    GW made two trips to the Final Four with one NC and Hewitt made a Final Four with an appearance in the championship game. So I don’t see how you can use Roy’s presence at UNC as an excuse to lower the expectations for Herb.

  19. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 10:32 AM #

    ^That’s right you’re Ned the FedEx guy but keep trying anyway.

  20. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 1:23 PM #

    Pacdaddy your emotional feelings towards Herb affects your ability to reason.
    I’ve never said Herb sucks. Also, I did not say that Herb will never become a great coach. I have said I think he has taken way too long to reach a very limited degree of success. I have said I would have cut him loose after 5 years. Those things I have said and I admit that.

    Roy rebuilt Kansas and he did it in less than 3 seasons in a situation that was at least as bad as the one Herb faced. And no, I don’t think the Big 12 is as tough as the ACC but it is a quality league. And if you have not noticed Roy’s succesor is finding it very difficult to maintain the level of success Roy attained. And Bill Self is considered a better than average coach.

    The reason several posts here criticize you is you state facts but then have no rational point that ties back to the facts you list. You talk about what a great record Roy has one minute and then you turn around and say he’s not that great. Or he’ll win more titles now at UNC due to his ablility to get more talent there than he could’ve at Kansas, yet he choked while at Kansas. Implying that he had the TALENT at Kansas to win the title.

    This is why I think you are Ned in the FedEx ad, somehow you always get it wrong!

  21. PACDADDY 01/12/2006 at 3:45 PM #

    ’74…My point was, he had the winningest program during that span, yet didn’t do much with it in the NCAA until his last years before arriving at UNC. Clearly…by me acknowledging he had the best %, I must have a high opinion of his ability. I only showed that sometimes his record didn’t quite meet up to his accomplishments in the NCAA. He benefited by having a weak conference schedule, which lead to HIGH SEEDINGS in the tourney….that’s a fact

    This has nothing to do with Herb, only that many fans see what Roy did at Kansas, and think Herb can’t hold his own…I say, he can and will. Head to head?…who knows…who has “held their own” with UNC over the past 40 seasons?

    Will Herb win more than lose over a long period of time?…no…Nobody at NCSU has done that over UNC over a long period of time, unless you want to go back to Case….pre Dean

    “This is why I think you are Ned in the FedEx ad, somehow you always get it wrong!”

    I can tell you this…I’m right about what’s important… Herb being successful at NCSU….he has been the last 4 seasons, and will continue to be in the future. As his stature as a coach continues to rise, his program will as well. Just like any YOUNG coach, it takes time to achieve a high level of consistency in a conference as competitive as the ACC…ask GW…Prosser…Hewitt…Gillen.

    “So I don’t see how you can use Roy’s presence at UNC as an excuse to lower the expectations for Herb.”

    VA..what the heck does this mean? I have just as high of “expectations”(I thought you didn’t like this word) as any on this board…the difference with me and most of you, is WHEN and HOW we get there.

    I expect consistent seasons, in which we finish in top of ACC…top being 1-3, while consistently in top 20…making top 10 at least once every other year and getting high seeds in the NCAA, which usually translates into NCAA tourney success…THIS “EXPECTATION’ IS NOW…NOT 5 YEARS FROM NOW!

    As Herb build’s this program, my “standards” will vary based on the circumstances of each season, but I EXPECT to remain as a NATIONALLY respected program. One that is known to it’s graduate players, put players into the NBA and play a national schedule, while having kids with strong character.

    After a few years of achieving this type of succes, we shoud then be able to challenge ANYONE for top players and be a Final 4 type team each year.

    Roy will have nothing to do with it.

  22. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 4:11 PM #

    ^I wish I could share your optimisim for Herb’s future but as long as K and Roy decide to coach that puts Herb in third at best.

    Now to set the record straight Pacdaddy here is Roy’s record at Kansas:
    Year 1-NCAA probation
    Year 2-NCAA 2nd round
    Year 3-Final Four
    Year 4-NCAA 2nd round
    Year 5-Final Four
    Year 6-Sweet Sixteen
    Year 7-Sweet Sixteen
    Year 8-Elite Eight
    Year 9-Sweet Sixteen
    Year 10-2nd round
    Year 11-2nd round
    Year 12-2nd round
    Year 13-Sweet Sixteen
    Year 14-Final Four
    Year 15-Final Four
    NCAA tournament record 34-14 overall record % was .805
    This is why Roy is considered the best in this business.

  23. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 4:15 PM #

    Pacdaddy dwell on the third year and fifth year records and re-read YOUR previous posts on this matter. Again you’re just wrong!

  24. PACDADDY 01/12/2006 at 5:06 PM #

    That’s right ’74….15 years… and during that career, he had of 8 straight seasons where he made the final 8 one time.

    Nobody has questioned his ability to coach, just suggested that during a span that ranged over half his career he simply fell short in the BIG GAMES of the NCAA. Sweet 16 is not very difficult when you’re a 1 or 2 seed, which he was 50% of that span…he was only worse than 4 (twice) and he built his record and ranking on a crappy conference schedule. The ENTIRE 90’s, the Big 12 sucked…they had NO team to challenge Kansas.

    Let me put it another way, so that maybe even you can understand. If UNC or Duke(because of their programs success over the last 20 years) had a coach that couldn’t make a final 8 but one time, in an 8 year span, he’d been run off…hell…they ran Gut off and he made two final 4’s in a row.

    Fact…Les shouldn’t have even been hired at NCSU…Fact…a YOUNG Herb shouldn’t have been hired at NCSU…Fact…Herb has proven he can compete in this conference during the last 4 season’s…NOW…he has to increase the level of play, or I won’t support him, but I’m not willing to start over with a Prosser, Gillen type coach, just because Herb has been here 10 years…maybe you are.

    I hope you’re not serious about him rebuilding Kansas…they were the National Champion 1 or 2 seasons before his arrival…When you’re an elite program, a probation is not even a speed bump.

  25. class of '74 01/12/2006 at 5:30 PM #

    ^your words not mine were “he didn’t do much with it in the NCAA until his last years before arriving at UNC” obviously making the final four in his third year as a first time head coach only to follow it up in his fifth year was not much in your mind. Again you just don’t seem to get it. You are wrong again!
    You just don’t get it.

    They didn’t run Gutheridge off either. You’re wrong again! And I know for a fact that Duke will not run off a coach for not going to but one Elite Eight. Your wrong again. Before you make outrageous statements like these just stop and think a little bit.

    Check what the people were saying in Kansas when he arrived and tell me his job wasn’t considered rebuilding. Again you live in some parallel universe somewhere.

    Where you are right for a change is Les should not have been hired. But then neither should Monteith have been hired as he handcuffed Les. And Herb maybe getting better but christ it’s been 10 years. I would hope anyone with any kind of ability would be getting better by this time. I hope only the best for him as it is in our best interest that he succeed.

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