Congratulations, Carolina

General NCS Basketball54

Amazing.

This year’s NC State squad added a McDonald’s All-American and 2 other strong recruits to a team that returned 63% of its scoring, 68% of its rebounding, and has freed up space to play Cedric Simmons who didn’t play enough last year to impact the returning numbers. This week, the Pack scored 42 points in a universally described “ugly game” after only scoring 61 against Notre Dame (despite having a big lead and getting the chance to shoot free throws with the lead).

Carolina returned less than 10% of their scoring after losing their top seven players and they win AT Rupp Arena over the #10 ranked, Kentucky Wildcats.

Could you imagine if NC State lost that many players? We’d be hearing how it takes years for anyone to rebuild after such a “touch luck” exodus. Of course, we’re nowhere near competing on the level of programs like Carolina, so I don’t NC State has to worry much about losing that many players (unless they transfer….which has been known to happen).

Just for some perspective, NC State has defeated a single Top 10 team on the road throughout Herb Sendek’s 10 years of out of conference play. That was a December 2001 at Syracuse, who proved to be grossly over-rated when the failed to qualify for the NCAA Tournament that season.

For precision — Carolina has won as many road games against out of conference Top 10 teams in the last 6 hours as NC State has won in a decade.

Congratulations, Carolina.

General NCS Basketball

54 Responses to Congratulations, Carolina

  1. VaWolf82 12/04/2005 at 3:23 PM #

    Leave these people alone to wallow in their own negativity and whining.

    Facts are neither negative nor positive….they are either true or false. For the only four years that Fowler can remember, Herb’s record against the four best coaches in the conference is:
    0-4 against Roy
    2-8 against K
    4-6 against Skippy
    4-6 against Gary

    The conclusions drawn from facts can vary…proven by the fact that not everyone shares mine. However, it appears that most that disagree with me either:
    1) Include a rosy future to the facts to support their conclusion, or
    2) Cling to the myth of slow improvement.

  2. site admin 12/04/2005 at 4:34 PM #

    You guys do yourselves favors and heed this warning that we aren’t paying for bandwidth for you to criticize us.

  3. packbackers 12/04/2005 at 6:55 PM #

    Then stop paying. This is a blog, right? A place for people to share their opinions. Just because some people’s opinions aren’t constantly negative doesn’t mean they are wrong. I have had enough of my comments erased to see that positive comments about NC State athletics are not accepted by people who think the glass is always half empty. Positive attitudes breed success in athletics, careers, relationships, and life in general. Negative attitudes (i.e. whining, criticizing, complaining) are like a cancer that spread and bring people down. Here are three things I know:
    1. NC State basketball has absolutely improved since Herb Sendek has been coach.
    2. To many of you people’s dismay, Herb Sendek will be our basketball coach for years to come, and there’s not a darn thing you can do about it.
    3. Misery loves company, so I highly suggest you all take a positive approach. Heed this warning: If you don’t, we have no chance at continued improvement.

  4. VaWolf82 12/04/2005 at 7:49 PM #

    so I highly suggest you all take a positive approach. Heed this warning: If you don’t, we have no chance at continued improvement.
    LOL. Do you have a lucky shirt you wear for each ball game too?

    My “attitude” has absolutely nothing to do with how the team does. Games are won and lost based on the actions and decisions made by the coaches and players….not by how hard the fans cheer.

  5. DDrye 12/04/2005 at 9:16 PM #

    I’m still waiting on someone to tell me how having a better record than UNC 3 out of the past 4 years isn’t competing with them.

  6. VaWolf82 12/04/2005 at 10:58 PM #

    I’m still waiting on you to explain how 0-4 against their present coach is competing or why you would expect Roy to ever be as bad a coach as Doh was. I’m always shocked when State fans are so starved for meaningful accomplishments that they gladly cling to four victories against the worst UNC teams over the last 40 years.

  7. Class of '74 12/05/2005 at 7:07 AM #

    Ddrye,
    Your measure against UNC is their low water mark while Matt was “coaching”.
    If you go out in the local public and ask your question the answer is: we have not yet competed on an equal footing with our neighbor schools. We may soon but not yet! I have many Duke and UNC friends and neighbors and that is the consensus opinion.
    By the way this blog is one of the best around so don’t stop a good thing!

  8. Class of '74 12/05/2005 at 7:48 AM #

    Besides Herb can shut us all up by simply winning something like a regular season ACC or the ACC tournament or a NCAA regional. I’m not picky any of those would do. And in your 10th year that’s not too much to ask IMHO.

  9. Rick 12/05/2005 at 9:12 AM #

    I so tire of my “negativity” being blamed for the state of our program (which is ironic considering the very same whiners claim to love the position our program is in).
    We do not compete with UNC or Duke for that matter.
    We are a middle of the road ACC team and always will be under Sendek. We are stuck in a purgatory of second places and moral victories. And no false claims of “slow improvement” and “good future” wil change that.

  10. VaWolf82 12/05/2005 at 9:22 AM #

    I have a friend at work with no ties to any ACC school. When I told him about the claims some make about State being “competitive” with the top of the ACC, he laughed. He said that he thought of State as a “dangerous” team that could beat anyone and any given night……but not a team that would threaten over the course of the season, the ACC tournament, or the NCAA tournament.

    Someday I hope to be able to prove him wrong….I just can’t yet.

  11. Class of '74 12/05/2005 at 10:02 AM #

    ^That’s is reality, not this “we’ve been competitive” junk.

  12. DDrye 12/05/2005 at 12:49 PM #

    I’m still waiting on you to explain how 0-4 against their present coach is competing or why you would expect Roy to ever be as bad a coach as Doh was. I’m always shocked when State fans are so starved for meaningful accomplishments that they gladly cling to four victories against the worst UNC teams over the last 40 years.

    How am I clinging to four victories when I’m talking about OVERALL AND ACC records? It seems you are clinging to the four victories by mentioning 0-4. And again, 1 of those years was with Roy at the helm. What does that have to do with Doherty?

    If State finishes ahead of UNC this year as projected by most, that would be 2 out of 3 years with Roy on the bench. What does that have to do with Doherty? Keep worrying about head-to-head games. I’ll take having better seasons.

  13. Class of '74 12/05/2005 at 1:13 PM #

    Again you take the low water mark to make your conclusion. NOBODY judges UNC’s program based on Matt’s tenure. I have not met ANYONE with a brain that believes we are in a better position to succeed than UNC at this time for the long term!!! Most observers think this will be a down year for UNC. Oh how I wish our down years would include games like UNC has played in the last week. The season is still young and we will see what happens but we are not on the same level in spite of Herb’s progress. Nine years of “chopping wood”.

  14. VaWolf82 12/05/2005 at 1:23 PM #

    How am I clinging to four victories when I’m talking about OVERALL AND ACC records?

    Simple, when you say:
    I’m still waiting on someone to tell me how having a better record than UNC 3 out of the past 4 years isn’t competing with them.
    You are including the two worst years in the last 40 years of UNC BB to make your comparison. That looks like you’re clinging pretty hard to those Doh years to me.

    If State finishes ahead of UNC this year as projected by most
    You really don’t have much of an argument when you include speculation and projections as the basis for your conclusion.

    I’ll take having better seasons.
    I would gladly trade State’s last three seasons for UNC’s. But you would have to be delusional to think that Herb is going to consistently have better records than Roy. As Ned Barnett said, State is stuck on pretty good. It’s OK if you are happy with that, but I’m not.

  15. packbackers 12/05/2005 at 5:23 PM #

    Vawolf, what do you suggest we do to change it, fire our coach? And hire who? If not, what the heck is your solution?

  16. packbackers 12/05/2005 at 5:31 PM #

    And by the way, congratulations to the Pack for being in the Top 25 in both polls again!

  17. packbackers 12/05/2005 at 5:31 PM #

    And by the way, congratulations to the Pack for being in the Top 25 in both polls again !

  18. VaWolf82 12/05/2005 at 6:45 PM #

    [quote]Vawolf, what do you suggest we do to change it, fire our coach? And hire who? If not, what the heck is your solution?[/quote]
    No one would fire a coach that just took State to the Sweet 16 for the first time in 16 years. However, Herb’s accomplishments pale in comparison to every NC State coach since the formation of the ACC (except for Les). Both of these extremes are absolutely true and go a along way in explaining the current split in the fanbase.

    There are two ways to mend the split….get a new coach (which isn’t going to happen any time soon) or start winning more. I want to move beyond “stuck at pretty good”. If Herb can do that, then I would be thrilled. If not, then we need to get someone who can.

  19. packbackers 12/05/2005 at 8:46 PM #

    Okay, we have established that your solution, VaWolf, is to “start winning more”, since as you said, the alternative isn’t going to happen. So, here’s what we need to ask ourselves. How can we as fans help? Surely criticizing them will not, so we should probably eliminate that from the equation. Think about it, how is a coach who is always perceived to be on the “hot seat” because of a split fanbase expected to compete for top notch recruits with Roy, K, and Skip? These recruits want stability, so complete support from the fans can only help there. Secondly, fan support is the x factor when it comes to home games. It seems like that should be pretty obvious… “home court advantage”? Fans booing their coach or their team does nothing but lower morale and momentum. Folks, we as fans have an obligation to give our athletics programs complete support until it becomes perfectly clear that the removal of a coach is necessary. That is certainly not the case, VaWolf, because as you pointed out it would be ridiculous to remove him after the first Sweet 16 in 16 years. This gets right down to the heart of the matter in this divided fanbase. Let’s unite and be the “sixth man” we are supposed to be. It’s not about being complacent, because I can promise you I get as mad as anyone when we lose. So does Herb and every player. It’s time for us to realize what fans are here for, to help our team win. And win we will do when we all get behind Herb and our team.

  20. DDrye 12/05/2005 at 9:45 PM #

    Well after State does so this year, I’ll just drop the first two seasons and say during Roy’s tenure. Will that be okay? That way I won’t be including Doherty’s years.

  21. VaWolf82 12/05/2005 at 11:08 PM #

    How can we as fans help? Surely criticizing them will not, so we should probably eliminate that from the equation.

    Now we all know that some of the stuff posted on internet message boards is worth less than the grafffiti found in a public restroom, but I’ll assume you are not talking about that. I suppose you want to remove all intelligent discussion of State’s records and history….since that would show that Herb is the seond least successful coach at NC State since the formation of the ACC…..and that won’t leave a good impression with the recruits. So what does that leave?
    – Recuriting news on every word that some 16 year old utters
    – Kennel’s seeds of greatness
    – New definitions of success
    http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2005/11/30/a-defining-season/
    – And what else?

    Oh by the way, it probably wouldn’t matter. Other people besides State fans have noticed Sendek’s lack of real success:
    http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2005/01/29/sendek-survives-while-state-falls-further-behind/

    I like this part the best:

    While N.C. State?s Big Four rivals Duke, North Carolina and Wake Forest have flourished at the top of the nation?s best basketball conference and competed for national championships, the Wolfpack has floundered in mediocrity with the same coach in charge. Doesn?t anyone in Wolfpack Nation care?

    In his eight-plus seasons, Sendek is 57-77 in ACC games. From 1954 through 1990, State was 282-214 in the ACC under Everett Case, Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano. Case was the father of ACC basketball. Sloan and Valvano won national titles.

  22. SaccoV 12/05/2005 at 11:24 PM #

    It’s quite humorous to see the bickering reach a new pinnacle. Yes, we are fighting amongst each other because we ALL see a disparity in the success we SHOULD HAVE had by this point in coach’s career. We have not had that success. No ACC regular season titles (although it means nothing because the tourament champ is the true champion), and NO tournament titles despite three visits to the finals. Conversely, State fans are forever mired in a vortex of misery with athletics these days. Chuck is on the skids, backing in to a meaningless bowl game against South Florida, and Herb just got us to a Sweet Sixteen where we blew a lead against a decent, but not wonderful, Wisconsin team. The meltdown against Vandy, the late losses to Cal and UConn in the NCAA tournament. Losing a huge halftime lead to Maryland two years ago in the Semis of the ACC tournament–all those indicators point to a greater deficiency. Lots of transfers from players who seemed at times to be good contributors, the list goes on. Though I’m personally not myopic enough to see Herb’s successes, they are becoming a little too average for someone of his tenure.

    I do remember a conversation about who would replace Robinson as basketball coach so many years ago and I kept hearing the name Kelvin Sampson, who blatantly refused to leave Oklahoma to coach here. Why might that be? Why would a North Carolina native, and excellent basketball coach choose to stay in Norman, OK, instead of returning to his home to coach a top school in a top basketball conference? The answer was simple. It’s much easier to climb Mt. Hood than Mt. Everest. At that time, Smith was still at the Hill and K was surpassing him daily at Duke. Wake Forest was strong with Odom, and State had nothing. Regardless of those difficult conditions, Sendek did ok and his teams produced some flashes of brilliance. Since his stay has last ten years now, what has he, the program and we fans had to show for the last ten years? One Sweet 16 appearance. We must look at these things without the passion we have when rooting for the team and see what so many others see around the country. This is a good team playing in a great conference against great competition. Good isn’t enough after ten years. It didn’t take Sloan, Valvano, Case or even Press Maravich ten years to leave their mark. Sendek’s mark is not yet left, and I think that as this year comes to another heart-wrenching conclusion, the mark will still be absent.

    Someone asked what as fans we must do to help. We do what we do. We watch; we discuss; we complain; we suffer. I wonder sometimes how it appears to basketball fans across the nation that the once proud national prominence we had is simply gone. Lost somewhere in the mediocre seasons or the blown leads at tournament time. We’ve one more titles than all teams save Duke and UNC in our conference, but there is NO ONE who feels that our current state would lead us to another deep run in the tournament or a chance at the brass ring. What shall we do as fans? We suffer. And unfortunately, we are the worst suffers of all because we refuse to make our once proud basketball tradition that of Carolina’s or Duke’s now callow football programs. We refuse to let our passion die because it’s what took us to State in the first place. We were better than our high school classmates that went to Duke and Carolina because we worked for what we had. We made ourselves in our own image. Personally, I lived my father’s unreachable dream of graduating from NC State University, and I can’t think of anything that makes me more proud. We suffer our workmates who never attended either Duke or Carolina. We suffer the taunts of those who consider us a cow college full of idiots who earned degrees in turf management. We suffer all those things but the suffering is never too much. Because we’ve all earned it. I’m actually pleased that we are fighting amongst each other because we deserve our success just as much as those other schools whose fan bases are built on t-shirt and hat sales. Our desires for acheivement are more palpable than those of Duke and Carolina fans because our existence is based solely on our ability to acheive. To see our basketball team underacheive, for so long, only fans the flames of anger and resentment. The college we care so much for and love with all our being falls short of the tag-alongs and rich kids. Keep fighting Statefans. Don’t ever let someone tell you that you’re being too critical, or unsupportive. Remember, you were once the scared kid living in Tucker Hall’s 2nd floor. You were the band member who was awed by the talent of those around you. You were the student who couldn’t understand the Calculus teacher. But you made it. The others at the University should too.

  23. DRO 12/05/2005 at 11:25 PM #

    To continue the banter of State being competitive with UNC…

    If you just look at straight numbers the argument can definitely be made that State has not been at the same level as UNC since Sendek took over, no matter who was coaching the Heels. The numbers, and I think these are pretty close to being accurate:

    State (under Sendek) = 62-80 in the ACC, 169-122 overall
    UNC = 87-57 in the ACC, 213-93 overall

    State = 13-9 in the ACC tourney, 6-5 in the NIT, 4-4 in the NCAA’s
    UNC = 12-7 in the ACC tourney, 2-1 in the NIT, 20-6 in the NCAA’s

    State = No titles of any kind, highest NCAA was Sweet 16
    UNC = 2 ACC tourney titles, 1 regular season ACC title, 4 Final Fours, 1 NCAA title

    Keep in mind that this included UNC’s worst season in history (8-20), so I think that it is clear that State has lagged behind significantly. And I don’t even want to think about how State compares to Duke over that period.

    No one is arguing that the Pack has improved under Sendek, but numbers don’t lie. As long as Duke and UNC continue to outperform State over the long term, they will continue to get the best recruits, etc. State needs to look toward the future, and hopefully they can improve this season even more. But without continued REAL improvement, Sendek’s seat is going to need some flames…

  24. DRO 12/05/2005 at 11:49 PM #

    SaccoV, um, well, I’m happy that you’re a proud NC State grad and all, but “We were better than our high school classmates that went to Duke and Carolina because we worked for what we had”? I mean gimme a break. I grew up in a podunk town in NC on a farm, and didn’t have a pot to pee in. I was poor, knew the value of hard work, and used hard work to get a full scholarship to UNC, graduate, then to find success in a technical field. There are plenty of hard working folks at all schools, and they didn’t all grow up with a silver spoon (yes, even at Duke).

    I grew up cheering for the Tar Heels, and hated State (a prerequisite for any self-respecting UNC fan). However, after GROWING UP, I certainly never considered State “a cow college full of idiots who earned degrees in turf management”, and nobody with any real brains would. Pretty much half of my immediate and extended family went to State, the other half to UNC. We butt heads about football and Bball, but we know deep down that both these schools are fine institutions, some of the best in the country. So, wax poetic about State if you must, but be realistic in your portrayal of its (and UNC’s and Duke’s) students.

    And finally, “we deserve our success just as much as those other schools whose fan bases are built on t-shirt and hat sales”? Yes, you certainly deserve any success that you’ve attained. We all do. But fan bases are built on more than clothing sales, and being a college graduate I would assume that you’d understand that. Oh, by the way, the reason the t-shirt and hat sales for those “other schools” are so large? They WIN, and do it CONSISTENTLY.

  25. VaWolf82 12/05/2005 at 11:51 PM #

    Folks, we as fans have an obligation to give our athletics programs complete support until it becomes perfectly clear that the removal of a coach is necessary.

    No sarcasm this time.

    – What does it take to be “perfectly clear”?
    – How long does it take before the situation is “perfectly clear”?
    – What minimum level of “success” does it take to be “perfectly clear”?
    – How many ACC programs have to be better than State before it is perfectly clear?

    The answers are really easy and don’t rely on you or me. As long as the top supporters and the administration is happy, then the real answer is perfectly clear.

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