Dare to Dream – Making the Pitch For NC State in the SEC

A few weeks ago, the college sports internets were all aflame with talk of SEC expansion and what it would mean for everyone left in its wake. Just when things calmed down a bit, Texas A&M is in the news again.

Whether anything is imminent with the SEC and the Aggies, it’s clear that Texas A&M isn’t going to lay back and quietly take the “most favored nation” status that the Big Twelve granted their arch-rival, in order to keep Texas in the fold. And they don’t really care who they piss off in the process.

Good for them.

It’s highly unlikely that the SEC goes to 13, even temporarily, without #14 slotting into place in short order (with 15 and 16 not far behind). In my humble opinion, whoever is that #14 will be in the last “first class” seat on the expansion train. You don’t want to be in the mad scramble for the two “coach” seats – or far worse, left behind at the airport. NC State needs to do everything it possibly can to be #14.

Please note that I’m not saying that NC State is the best fit, or if the SEC would even be interested. But I do think NC State brings something(s) to the table. We are not located in a state with a pre-existing SEC team (apparently an absolute prerequisite). We bring a large alumni base, and add the 10th largest state in the nation, population-wise (with two Top-30 TV markets). We also are a nice counterbalance to bring in along-side A&M – an engineering/technical land grant university, with an appetite for football who’s well-motivated to get out of the shadows. I think this is at least enough to get the SEC to hear our pitch. Now, here’s why we need to give it, post-haste.

First, dissenting voices may argue “this is all about football and money, and ignores history and tradition.” But at a higher level, this is how we need to look at things. College Football = Money. Money = Survival. More about the post-expansion landscape later. But we have no need to even feel the slightest bit apologetic about wanting to survive. And we should care as much about Carolina and Duke as they care about us.

Indeed, this is all about football, because that’s where the money is. But frankly, I don’t see how this hurts NC State basketball in any event (for the record, I would still support joining the SEC regardless). Right now, we play in a league where all that matters is Duke-Carolina. The rest of the league has been abyssmal since Gary Williams got complacent, and the powers-that-be are fine with the status quo. Yes, the ACC has great tradition – but that’s all. And it’s increasingly irrelevant in the modern college sports world.

Look at the coaching staff we have – it’s perfectly designed to be a respectable SEC middle-echelon program. One that goes to the NCAAT with reasonable regualarity, enough to not lead to embarrassing attendance in our way too big arena. And it does so at a budget-friendly salary, allowing us to focus long-term on what we should focus on – football.

As I’ve harped on many times – NC State has shit all over its brand identity, to the extent that the old one can never come back (IMHO). So, we need to be reborn as something else, unless we want to be an ACC also-ran forever. Joining the SEC gives us our one and only decent shot at this re-birth.

The second objection goes like this – if we can’t rule the ACC, wouldn’t we be destined to go 6-6 or worse every year? Hell no. We will never be Florida, Alabama, or LSU. I totally understand that. But why can’t we be South Carolina? Despite their woeful first 70+ years of existence, their last two decades or so would represent an all-time high water mark for NC State football. And we would have a key advantage in recruiting NC/VA/MD – the only Mid-Atlantic program that offers a chance to play in the SEC. We would also be the most urban-centered program in the league (other than Vandy – but come on, they hardly count). We would offer kids the chance to live in a real city, without the quasi-Confederate local climate that can’t ultimately be that attractive to a lot of young black athletes.

I would also much rather be ahead of the stampede to become teams 15 and 16. There’s no doubt that even the marginally intuitive athletic directors and chancellors will see the writing on the wall as they watch the SEC’s expansion press conference. Hey, I had better get in on this, or we’re totally fucked. Now you have a stampede for the last 2 SEC slots, and for teams out west, the next 4 Pac-16 slots (big advantage to teams in the Midwest, who can consider both options). Once you have a 16-team SEC, the Pac-12 will surely follow, swooping up the best remnants of the Big 12. Maybe the Big Ten (eventually, as I suspect that they will be reactive, not proactive) decides to poach 4 East Coast/ND teams as well. Then the three supers basically create a 16-team playoff system that they dominate, with the ACC/Big East remnants basically reduced to C-USA/Mountain West status (where they need to go 12-0 just to earn a low seed in the tourney).

Or maybe the remanats don’t factor at all into the new NFL model that the SEC and Pac-16 dictate. Who really needs them? Why share the money?

This makes sense to me. So the choice is “remnant or viable entity” – and I know what I want NC State to choose.

In closing, who makes the most sense for the last two SEC slots? Missouri and one of Oklahoma State, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, or Maryland (DC television market). In 2013, the line-up could be this:

SEC West: Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State

SEC East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vandy, Kentucky, NC State, Missouri

I suspect teams will play a 9-game league schedule. Duke and Wake can be non-conference “2-for-1” series – which we will be able to schedule because all of a sudden it’s little old NC State that’s calling the shots. I could get used to saying that.

In the comments, feel free to play around with what you expect to cobble together from the ACC/Big East/C-USA remnants. Take a guess how big a disparity there will be in the TV money and fan interest.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

ACC AD & Department College Football

97 Responses to Dare to Dream – Making the Pitch For NC State in the SEC

  1. packof81 08/30/2011 at 12:36 PM #

    I’m all for us getting into the SEC. There’s good schools, good football, good basketball, a fresh start and a fair shake. I don’t see much downside.

    The ACC ain’t nothing like what it used to be. It’s been soiled by the powers-that-be. Indeed, the UNC scandal has made it into a national laughing stock. Best to get out now while th’ gittin’s good.

  2. MP 08/30/2011 at 12:37 PM #

    Maybe we could play UNC some “4-for-1” series – That is, if they still have an athletic program AND if they ask us nicely.

  3. ncsu1987 08/30/2011 at 12:48 PM #

    Agree that we make as good a case as anybody, if they hold to the “one per state” rule. In my opinion, that means only that we will get consideration. It’s more than most will get, but it’s something. Politics will determine the rest.

  4. jrsr 08/30/2011 at 12:48 PM #

    Good job!! I totally agree. I think State and VA Tech would be a very good addition to the SEC. Before the ‘oversights’ at UN-CHeaters I would have seen them having the best chance from this area but there is no way the SEC will add a school with all the pending NCAA sanctions. I understand the long history with the ACC, but at some point it is time to move on. Yow should let the SEC know we are willing to change and have a design for the stadium expansion that takes us to 75,000 seats. Always go to the meeting with a plan.
    GO PACK, ready for football!

  5. LRM 08/30/2011 at 12:50 PM #

    The ACC we grew up with will likely look vastly different in a few years. We can grasp some misplaced ideal for “tradition” and do what’s best for the ACC, or we can be pragmatic about making sure we do what’s best for State. I former isn’t always in the best interest of the latter.

  6. Wulfpack 08/30/2011 at 12:51 PM #

    Totally agree with the post. This is about survival. Those harping back to history and tradition have their eyes closed. The ACC ain’t what it used to be, and it’s only to grow even stranger once we are raided.

  7. LRM 08/30/2011 at 12:52 PM #

    “Yow should let the SEC know we are willing to change and have a design for the stadium expansion that takes us to 75,000 seats.

    Doubt this would even be a factor. This is wholly about TV money; stadium capacity doesn’t mean a thing.

  8. BJD95 08/30/2011 at 12:53 PM #

    Speaking of politics – the timing is perfect. All we need to do is ask Bev Perdue whether she would like a path to re-election or not.

  9. WolftownVA81 08/30/2011 at 1:00 PM #

    This is big picture thinking. Hope Debbie follows SFN. I think we would offer alot ot the SEC. I miss the ACC the way it use to be. Though if we leave it, I will not miss it as it currently exists. My only preference would be for NCSU and VT to come in as a pair instead of A&M and NCSU. I like playing the Hokies both at home and Lane Stadium. This would be a big market increase though I’m not sure if NC and VA would equal TX.

  10. WolftownVA81 08/30/2011 at 1:03 PM #

    Wolpack Unlimited! The phrase just came to mind. I like the idea of dreaming big and setting our sites on something grand. The ACC is so status quo and I can easily imagin a day when it falls apart.

  11. BJD95 08/30/2011 at 1:03 PM #

    I think the Aggies are definitely coming, but VPI could replace Mizzou (and Mizzou instead of Okie State in the West) in my hypothetical SEC East.

  12. VaWolf82 08/30/2011 at 1:08 PM #

    Please note that I’m not saying that NC State is the best fit, or if the SEC would even be interested.

    Good to get these two points out of the way and focus on what is best for NC State. In that vein, the other side of the equation is what will happen if State stays in the ACC. The ACC is in the “never was” category in FB and “has been” in basketball. There is nothing to gain by staying and everything to lose by passing on the SEC.

    The biggest problem with the whole scenario is not whether State should go or not. The biggest problem is that State brings so little to the table in the way of its athletic programs that the SEC is more likely to look at VT or UNC if it wants to expand its footprint to the east.

  13. ShootingGuard 08/30/2011 at 1:08 PM #

    Note: Missouri would be in the SEC West with Auburn moving over to the SEC East (while still playing the Iron Bowl every year) in that scenario.

    Some folks worry about State being competitive in the SEC for football, but, really, if you were going to do it, the SEC East is a great opportunity for someone new. Vandy and KY aren’t anything special in football. Tenn is down. SC has had nice success recently, but they aren’t dominant and the ole ball coach won’t be there forever. Playing Florida will be no different than playing Jimbo’s soon to be new and much improved FSU. Georgia is about like Clemson in the underachiever category. And, hey, the curse that is Maryland will be over.

    In basketball, KY & Calipari coming to town would be as spicy if not more spicy than Duke, although not quite UNC level. Florida has been really good at times and consistently solid other times under Billy D, and Vandy is solid. Plenty of the football schools or want-to-be football schools have had their moments. Bama and Arky could get real competitive in the future with their head coaches. Who knows? You get UNC, Duke, and Wake on the schedule periodically with other name OOC opponents, and I can’t say it is any less enthralling than the current basketball schedule with games against Miami, BC, etc.

    Not sure you can get this through the politics required but the potential economics are definitely compelling to at least give a look.

  14. BJD95 08/30/2011 at 1:13 PM #

    I don’t think UNC would go. They’re too arrogant to make a pitch, for one. And why would the SEC put up with UNC’s attitude if there’s a viable alternative?

    If all you care about is football (which is what this is all about) doesn’t NC State bring just as much to the table? Aren’t we really like a slightly lesser, east coast version of the Aggies?

    We would also definitely have South Carolina pushing for us. And that’s a mutually beneficial rivalry that I would like to see revitalized.

  15. Wolfacct 08/30/2011 at 1:18 PM #

    I’m all in! I think the determing factor as to who will be invited is the validity of a “gentleman’s agreement” in the SEC regarding not inviting another school in a state with an SEC representative, i.e. no Clemson, FSU or GT. If that agreement exist, then we have a shot. If not, then I think FSU will get the first invite, although I don’t know how much FSU adds to the SEC media footprint. Questions to be answered are 1. Will the NC legislature / BOG allow NCSU and UNC to be in different conferences and 2. same for Virginia. If I remember correctly, the Virginia legislature strong-armed the ACC into taking VT during the most recent expansion. Can you imagine the excitement and energy when an Alabama, LSU or Georgia came to Raleigh? I’d tailgate for 2 days, and any season tickets available would be bought by the visiting school (ala Duke / Alabama last year).

  16. LRM 08/30/2011 at 1:19 PM #

    The biggest problem with the whole scenario is not whether State should go or not. The biggest problem is that State brings so little to the table in the way of its athletic programs that the SEC is more likely to look at VT or UNC if it wants to expand its footprint to the east.

    Agree.

  17. GAWolf 08/30/2011 at 1:20 PM #

    As soon as I started reading this, I mumbled the word “rebirth.” I then got to that point of your piece.

    With ACC clearly being UNC/Duke/ESPN, we really have nothing to lose. I agree that we have to be reborn regardless. The change of scenery might help us do that, and it certainly wouldn’t hinder us from doing that. The transition to becoming a viable SEC football program would be long (very long) and possibly at times downright depressing, but the potential to do so is very appealing. As you’ve adequately set out, there is at least reason to hope it could indeed be done.

    As for basketball, we yanked the rug out from under us just before the explosion of ESPN. ESPN grows while the Duke/UNC rivalry grows, and we missed that train completely. I’m not sure we can ever recover. That’s a shame, and few people outside of a few diehard (old) Wolfpack faithful even realize that the ACC was the conference that Case essentially built beginning with the old Dixie Classic and big four tournaments. That’s all a long version of “we shit on our brand.”

    We need to rebuild, and I agree that a jump to the SEC would be earth moving stuff.

    More importantly, and this is HUGE, we have the players in place to take advantage of such opportunity primarily at the very top. Had this opportunity presented about 3 years ago I would have screamed: “Oh hell no.” As it is now with Woodson and Yow, I’m okay with it.

    Great piece, BJD.

  18. LRM 08/30/2011 at 1:21 PM #

    If I remember correctly, the Virginia legislature strong-armed the ACC into taking VT during the most recent expansion.

    Correct.

    Can you imagine the excitement and energy when an Alabama, LSU or Georgia came to Raleigh? I’d tailgate for 2 days…

    Not with the five-hour rule still in place!

  19. GAWolf 08/30/2011 at 1:21 PM #

    UNC has it too good to leave the ACC. They’d be idiots with the roots they have in Swofford, etc.

    If Swofford goes soon due to the scandal, look out….

  20. LRM 08/30/2011 at 1:26 PM #

    The most boggling part of a 16-team football conference is the logistics of maintaining traditional rivalries, which is very important to the SEC (Alabama-Tennessee and Georgia-Auburn, for example, happen every year and don’t abide the normal East-West rotation).

    I think you’ll see a different setup than the current East-West in the SEC, perhaps even one similar to the Big 10 (er, B1G), where it’s setup to protect some of those traditional rivalries that have made the SEC so great.

  21. runwiththepack 08/30/2011 at 1:39 PM #

    I hate to admit it, but agree that UNC would be a better target bec. of their much larger fan base due to basketball. Given that TV markets are the primary motivation, accd. to conventional wisdom, maybe that’s not a great factor.

    But isn’t basketball exactly what will prevent UNC from making the jump to the SEC?

    Also, with the recent troubles on The Hill, I predict that their faculty will revolt if UNC’s athletic dept. tries to persuade the faculty & BOT to go along with a move to the SEC.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the same happens in Raleigh, for that matter. But it seems less likely to cause a BOT or faculty revolt in Raleigh. Just my guess.

    Hopefully, the SEC sees NCSU as an up-and-coming sports program, and UNC as a sliding one, which could well be the case by the end of another year.

    It seems that I also read something credible that stated that the SEC won’t expand to 16 teams all at once. At least a year or two would pass btw. acquiring the 14th team and the 15th/16th teams. If that’s true, then NCSU has some time to think before acting on a potential SEC invite.

    I can see NCSU heading to the SEC. I’m actually kinda neutral on it, since I’m not terribly confident that an invite – and our administration taking interest – are forthcoming anyway.

    But I have a HARD time seeing UNC making a move to the SEC.

  22. runwiththepack 08/30/2011 at 1:45 PM #

    Oh! One more thing. NCSU will still have a home-and-home basketball with UNC if NCSU bolts to the SEC. So, we would have the best of both worlds, in a sense. True?

    SEC football teams coming to Raleigh AND playing UNC, (and probably Duke, too) regularly in basketball. We’re not giving up anything much in basketball if we can continue to play UNC and Duke. Don’t care all that much about the other ACC basketball teams, except WF.

  23. VaWolf82 08/30/2011 at 1:54 PM #

    If all you care about is football (which is what this is all about) doesn’t NC State bring just as much to the table?

    I think that conference expansion is about money. There is little to choose between UNC and NCSU as far as football goes, but UNC does bring BB and the potential for UNC vs UK matchups and the associated hype.

    Note that I’m not saying that either UNC or VT would be interested in leaving the ACC. VT is only in the ACC because of the arrogance of Duke/UNC along with legislative pressure on UVA. There is no way to tell if that same pressure would be forced on VT to stick with UVA.

  24. VaWolf82 08/30/2011 at 1:56 PM #

    One more thing. NCSU will still have a home-and-home basketball with UNC if NCSU bolts to the SEC.

    I don’t understand why you would think that this is a given. It looks rather unlikely to me.

  25. runwiththepack 08/30/2011 at 2:00 PM #

    My main reservation with NCSU leaving the ACC would be the possible addition of Pitt and Syracuse (and maybe even ND, long shot). ACC basketball would be awesome with them in the picture. Maybe even Louisville, too.

    I don’t know if i can be objective about NCSU’s chances of being relevant in SEC football. But I think there’s more substance to the possibility of NCSU basketball getting back into ACC form.

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